Lutan F PH

[passthru]

I know another lutan f question but could not find a definitive answer.  All the direction i have read on lutan f, no where does it speak of controlling he PH, just mix your water, salt and lutan-f ans away you go?

Some posts I have ready while mixing lutan-F you should adjust the PH to 4.0?  is this true?  if so, do you add safety acid to lower the PH.  Should the PH be monitored during the tanning like you do with a pickle?

Lastly, Neutralizing after the tan VS. after the pickle.  all the direction indicate after pickle, I read in one of Bruce Rittles post that if you do not neutralize after the pickle you will only surface tan your hide?  Some post point to neutriling after the tan?

[muscle20]

        Lutan bonds best at a pH of 4.0, pickle your skins at 2.0 or lower pH , either or bring your pH in your pickle to 4.0 and add your lutan directly to the pickle, or mix up a tanning float and adjust your pH in the tanning float, keep in mind that the warmer the tanning float the faster the tan will bond( temp. not any higher than 30c) , after the lutan has bonded bring the pH of your skins, not just your tanning float up to or as close to 5.0 , this can take anywhere from half an hour to two hours depending on the thickness of the skins, it is important to adjust your pH of your skins to 5.0 after your tan for quality and shelf life,its just that easy, I have been using lutan for over 35 years and its a superb tan for taxidermy the best!

[Shannon Tobey]

There is tutorial on lutan f and it says it should be 1.5 to 2.5 ...so is it 4.0???

[J Brown II]

Re read the tutorial tobey. The pickle is at that pH. If the tutorial actually say 1.5 to 2.5 it's bad info.

[oldshaver]

Lutan is attracted to a skin, with acidic pH. You can add it to the pickle, and get a 1/2 a55 tan, but there is a better way! This method wastes the tan, and doesnt utilize all the tan in the bath.

I must be honest here. I think the reason you find Bruce Rittel saying to neutralise before the tan, is because, his main selling product, EZ100, REQUIRES NEUTRALISATION before the tan. EZ 100 is a phenoilc tan, that is attracted to a skin, that is slightly BASIC in pH. LUTAN, is a WHOLE DIFFERENT TYPE of tan, that searches for acidic skins. As far as Lutan goes, I have talked to TWO DIFFERENT leather chemists that verify what I m saying, so it is not up for discussion! I think Bruce just made a common mistake. Im not perfect, and neither is he. All that surface tan stuf, is horse 5hit, unless you are tanning an elephant! Most skins in Taxidermy tanning, are just too thin, to surface tan. Its impossible!

Here is the reason you should make a seperate bath, when tanning with Lutan, or MOST submercible tans on the market.

The tan, LUTAN, is attracted to an acidic skin. When you make a seperate tanning bath, with Lutan, you use water, salt, and the Lutan, at I think, 1oz per lb of skin. After you mix the tanning bath, with Lutan in it, the Lutan will lower the pH to around 3.5 or so. You want the pH of the skin to be tanned, LOWER THAN  SURROUNDING BATH! Thats why you should go straight from a pickle, to the tanning bath.

After the Lutan in the bath, has been pulled into the skin(usually overnight), you raise the pH of the bath, to the FIXING pH. When this happens, the tan doesnt just "losely"surround the collegen fibers, it actually "locks on"!

Lutan has an "ionic charge", which is positive, or cationic.

Then we oil the skin. This oil used will be anionic, or negative charged. Positive and negatives attract, thereby bonding the oil, to the tan. With a properly tanned wet-tanned skin, ALL the oil required to lubricate the fibers of the skin, and provide stretch, can barely be felt after washing, because the oil actually bonds to the skin.

I hope somebody understands all this? I have NO INTENTION of trying to step on anyone's toes. This is just a plain and simple explaination of how this product works, and what is required to achieve the results the manufacture intended. Tobey522, if you can, post that tutorial. I have not seen it, but I think it may be on a better track for "actual tanning" with Lutan, than what I have read so far.

[Shannon Tobey]

ok, I will re read it again...thanks for all the help! That's great info! Another ? if I may...after going straight from the pickle to the tan, I have heard you can neutralize it while i the tan? Do you do this just by adding sodium bicarbonate (or baking soda)? Also, you say you can raise it to the level...how do you raise it exactly? lol sounds dumb I know but I want to make sure I have it right.

[Shannon Tobey]

Tobey522, if you can, post that tutorial. I have not seen it, but I think it may be on a better track for "actual tanning" with Lutan, than what I have read so far.

It's called LUTAN F tutorial...its pretty long so I didn't know if I should copy an dpaste it, plus there are comments under it and that is where it states the tanning solution ph of 1.5 to 2

[oldshaver]

Add baking soda to the tanning bath, a little at  time, until it rises to the fixing(final)pH reccomended. I would leave the skin in the bath for 30min to an hour, after reaching the reccomended pH. Good night.

[muscle20]

      I am not going to make this a bashing discussion, but I just want to clarify that I have practiced both methods with lutan, basifying in the pickle and basifying in a separate bath, and over the many years of practicing both methods found know difference in the outcome of the bonding or quality of the tan, also being a taxidermist practicality all my life I pretty much know what is needed as far as a quality skin for the purpose of the taxidermist or other, as far as wasting you use the same amount of lutan per pound of skin weight as you would in a separate bath,matter of fact you use less salt and water tanning in the pickle as to making a new bath, as far as the pH of the skin charge goes its there from the pickle all your doing is basifying the range of the pickle from 1.5 to 3.5 - 4.0 meaning the lutan is going to bond to the acidic skin being at 3.5 to 4.0 range then finishing it to approximately 5.0 - 5.5 the skins own pH before you started and the lutan is locked on! For anybody disbelief if you have experience do a practical and see for yourself, the quality of the tan will be the same, and I would not recommend or put anything down in writing that did not work, was not proven and tested personally, and this method has been practiced long before I was born.  

[Shannon Tobey]

Add baking soda to the tanning bath, a little at  time, until it rises to the fixing(final)pH reccomended. I would leave the skin in the bath for 30min to an hour, after reaching the reccomended pH. Good night.

ok, so do you let it sit in the tan for (coyote) the 13-15 hrs and then neutralize it and let it sit another 30 min to 1 hr? or neutralize it right when you out it in the tan?

[oldshaver]

Add baking soda to the tanning bath, a little at  time, until it rises to the fixing(final)pH reccomended. I would leave the skin in the bath for 30min to an hour, after reaching the reccomended pH. Good night.

ok, so do you let it sit in the tan for (coyote) the 13-15 hrs and then neutralize it and let it sit another 30 min to 1 hr? or neutralize it right when you out it in the tan?

Tobey, come on man? Read what you just quoted. You neutralise(or bring the pH of the tanning bath itself), up to the fixing pH. YOU ADD BAKING SODA TO THE TUB WITH THE SKIN AND TAN IN IT! You DONT need to put the skin in a seperate solution.

[oldshaver]

Muscle20, from what I read, we pretty  much agreed? I dont understand the "bashing post thing"?

The only thing I disagreed with you on, was adding Lutan to your pickle.

The reason being, adding the tan to a pickle, it will try try to fix and tan, every piece of trash ect, in the pickle. If you do a seperate bath, the tan will actually be attracted to the SKIN ONLY, without any interferance from its surrounding enviroment.

Thats what I ment by "wasting"! ALL THE TAN IS ATTRACTED TO THE SKIN, in a seperate bath, and NOT every little tiny piece of trash in the water.(in a pickle)

You also can reuse the pickle, doing it my way. You probablly cant resuse pickles though, because they are TOO DIRTY, from not salting skins, and doing a seperate rehydration bath.

If dis-agreeing with some of the things you or others say, is "bashing", then I guess I am guilty.

Everything I type or have an opinion on, comes from 25 years of TANNING EXPERIENCE! 8-10 hrs a day, sometimes 6 days a week. I would venture to say, I have have had my hands on more skins in 3 of my 25 years, than you have had in your entire career as a Taxidermist! Not to mention, skins from probablly every continent on the planet!

[Shannon Tobey]

Add baking soda to the tanning bath, a little at  time, until it rises to the fixing(final)pH reccomended. I would leave the skin in the bath for 30min to an hour, after reaching the reccomended pH. Good night.

ok, so do you let it sit in the tan for (coyote) the 13-15 hrs and then neutralize it and let it sit another 30 min to 1 hr? or neutralize it right when you out it in the tan?

Tobey, come on man? Read what you just quoted. You neutralise(or bring the pH of the tanning bath itself), up to the fixing pH. YOU ADD BAKING SODA TO THE TUB WITH THE SKIN AND TAN IN IT! You DONT need to put the skin in a seperate solution.

Sorry, I didn't mean putting the skin in a seperate solution. I guess I got confused on the part of " leave the skin in the bath for 30 min to 1 hr after reaching the recommended ph. What I am trying to ask is, add the baking soda a little at a time over the hours the skin is supposed to be in the tan and after it has reached the ph let it sit another 1hr? I know I sound ridiculously stupid, but I don't want to mess things up so I want to make sure I fully understand everything

[oldshaver]

After it has reached your desired pH, then add 1 hour.

Have a good one!

[muscle20]

  Hey oldshaver   To me it seems you are trying to make this dressing of mammal skins to be complicated, it is not, anybody can tan mammal skins that are capable of working with raw skins, and knows the process with a little experience, a person can preserve mammal skins using a variety of different methods if they choose, if these methods have been proven and tested over time, as I said before this method of adding lutan to the pickle works whether you have trash in your pickle or not, This is just a easy alternative method that I posted for a new person starting out and others to try, just last year my ten year old grandson used this method to tan his own skins, and they turned out as good as you could get them, under my supervision of course. And you do not waste other than making up a new pickle, who wants to use a old pickle, and if you do, just make up a separate tanning bath, you can choose, tanning bath or new pickle, the difference a little acid, same outcome whether you agree or not its a easy alternative that works and is proven, As far as you doing that many skins good for you! Maybe I did too, or maybe not as many, but I have 20 more years on your 25 so maybe?  Well I better get on my way, going to shoot some more coyotes in the morning, trying to catch up to you and your skins lol.   Any ways have a good one.