JRTS Thoughts
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DSalters
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« on: December 11, 2007, 06:12:51 PM »

I have recently been using JRTS and Liqua-Tan with Pre-Tan #110.  Both work great for my needs when tanning whitetails.  I cannot tell a difference in the end product other than by smell.  I've probably tanned a half-dozen capes with each so far and have had no problems at all...even though I expected something to go wrong at some point.  It just seemed like using a brush-on would eventually fail due to human error regarding proper coverage.  Even though both tans work well for me, I am leaning toward JRTS due to a slightly different process that works best for me.

1.  Flesh completely and brush on Stop-Rot.  Allow to sit for an hour or two to soak in.
2.  Salt for a couple hours until salt is thoroughly saturated.
3.  Re-salt until no more moisture is soaked up (usually overnight).
4.  Use mini-flesher to remove membrane and preliminarily thin hide.
5.  Soak in brine to resoften.
6.  Rinse and let drain until only damp (use towel to soak up skin-side water).
7.  Brush on JRTS and allow to sit for ~6 hours or overnight (depending on time of day).
8.  Shave again with mini-flesher to thin hide more.
9.  Freeze
10.  Thaw, wash with Pert-Plus, and rinse.
11.  Leaf-blow to dry out fur and skin side as much as possible prior to mounting.

Something I noticed following tanning the last few hides was very small crystals on the skin-side.  They were hardly noticable but I knew something was slightly amiss.  The hide felt a bit drier than it normally does and I was left with less stretch too.  Only one thing I can think of was different in my process these times:  Step #5 was done in a brine as opposed to cold water as I have done in the past.  Could the presence of salt cause this change?  I figure it's a good idea to use salt in the water for relaxing even though it's only a ~4 hour process just to be safe.

Shaving semi-dry salted hide works very well...far better than I expected.  I am using a mini-flesher with a small capacity compressor, so I am limited very much.  However, it goes very well.  Additionally, shaving a tanned hide goes quite well too.  I am more pleased with shaving at these points than I am after a pickled or pre-tanned (#110) cape.

Any thoughts are quite welcome regarding the "crystals" (or any other aspect of the topic). 

Thanks,
Daniel
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Paul K
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« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2007, 07:24:42 PM »

I don't claim to be a tanning expert but I've done some back in the day , I notice in your 11 step procedure you skip the pickle , I wont debate my thoughts on that , however I would think that quite a bit of salt would be absorbed over a few days in a pickle. I would suspect the crystals you speak of could be excess salt left in your skin.
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Paul K
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« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2007, 08:10:58 PM »

On another note , just a few post's down is a very thorough and well written article by a young lady named Amy. I think its "tanning for beginners". I personally believe she hits on some very crucial and important elements of tanning regardless of your choice of tanning agent. If you think it's allot of work , your right. For many of us , who have a backlog of work , the cost of a good commercial tannery is money well spent. However if you really want to be successfull in taxidermy knowing the fundamentals of tanning is very important. Good luck to you.
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paul e
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« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2007, 07:50:58 AM »

Dsalters
George has tons of experience using JRTS
i use it on all my fresh capes and have for a few years now
i added a few things and posted a couple of years ago also on my experience
heres my original from then
if you look i1.thaw in ice chest(its warm down here)
2.brush stop rot on ears,eyes,nose and mouth on outside
3.start taking off head applying stop rot as i go
4take most red meat off cape,turn ears,split eyes,mouth
  add a little stop rot to freshly exposed areas
5.i flesh the entire cape a little on my round knife
6.i soak the skin in 2 gallons of water ,a pound of salt per
   gallon at a p.h. of 5.5 to 6 for 30 min.
  i believe up to this point this is joes formula or pretty close
7.i reapply stoprot to bond the goo that is now oozing off
   cape(DNA?)
8.i give a quick rinse in water only
9.wrap in towel for 15 minutes and apply JRTS and leave
   overnite or 8 to 10 hours
10.put in freezer
11.take out and put in fridge(usually overnite)
     shave next on round knife thin
12.SOAK in presoak and a little fab softner for sweetness smell
13.towel or tumble or spin in washer to dry a little
14.be absolutely amazed at the stretch you have and smile
    skin stretches like a fresh skin but feels like a
    submersable tanned skin
    note! no salting up front
    and no pickle so no need to neutralise
i like this better than saltingjust my exp. with it
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using stop-rot up front makes everything else go better
and somewhere off in the distance a deer grunted
paul e
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« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2007, 07:53:53 AM »

joe osborn i believe came up with this procedure for soaking i believe with some inspiration from Uncle Glen Conley
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using stop-rot up front makes everything else go better
and somewhere off in the distance a deer grunted
outdrsmn869
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« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2007, 11:23:43 AM »

Dan, I have used JR Tanning cream for about 13 years and have had NO problems.
My Process--
         1) Remove all large meat and fat with a knife
         2) Salt for about 3-4 hours
         3) Sometime I may salt again with fresh salt depends on moisture content
         4) 1st wash is Cold water , liquid laundry soap and salt
         5) Rinse in cold water and salt
         6) Spin dry on spin cycle of wash machine or hang for about 1 hour
         7) I stretch the cape out and apply tanning cream and rub it in
         8) fold up and place in bag for at least 6 hours
         9) then I Minni flesh the entire cape alone with skiffing the face. ( the tanning cream at this point makes the fleshing SO MUCH easier)
        10) Now I can either wrap up and freeze till mounting time or 2nd wash in soap , cold water, cap of Lysol and some freebreeze. Rinse in cold water and hair conditioner.

Well that is my process and it has worked for so well for me I will never change. The stretch is great and the skin is soft. Very easy to work with.
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DSalters
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« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2007, 12:30:41 PM »

Paul, thanks for the PM about the leatherizing acid.  I knew you'd chime in sooner or later because I've read lots of posts in the old and new archives about your experience with JRTS.  Even though your process has varied a bit over time, it still works well for you.  I have heard about Glen's product but last time I checked, the instructions read like Saftee Acid...so I didn't look into it any further.  The information you sent me is intriguing though.  I'm going to look into this further now. 

I only found five hits for a "leatherizing acid" search but did find an old post of yours and Joe Osborn (?) discussing what this soft acid soak accomplishes.  How was a teaspoon for four gallons arrived at?

I have used Pre-Tan #110 (Knobloch's) a bit in the last year.  It is a mildly acidic solution that requires a brief soak as you probably already know.  I liked the way I could see/feel results in a short amount of time, so I knew something was occuring.  It sounds to me like a similar process is occuring with the soft brine/acid solution.

In a thread from November 14, 2006, you guys discuss this process and how it can do much of what a good pickle or salting can do.  It looks like from what I am reading that it:  helps protect against slipping.  If the pH is between 5 and 6, this must not be due to killing bacteria because the pH doesn't seem low enough for that.  There must be other factors at work here.  What is occuring that helps prevent deteriorization?  Additionally, does this solution change the nature of the skin in such a way that the tan is taken up more effectively?

I've got lots of questions brewing but I just can't post them all at once sadly enough.  I'm thinking Glen ought to chime in here any moment on this one.
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DSalters
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« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2007, 01:59:20 PM »

Another thought/question regarding the acid/brine is:  What is it doing to the hide that Stop-Rot has not already done?  Many of the results I've read sound a lot like results from stop rot (ie., drawing goo or blood to the surface, working against various forms of slippage).

Thanks,
Daniel
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George Roof
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« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2007, 02:13:27 PM »

I love Stop Rot more than most of the next guys, but with a fresh hide I simply don't use it.  It's my ace in the hole for those hides I DON'T know about.  (I know Glen would like everyone to soak their hides in it and it certainly wouldn't hurt, HOWEVER, I don't feel it's necessary.)

I see several methods on how JRTS is used, but I always go back to the old tried and true method of FOLLOWING THE DIRECTIONS.  If you have a jar of JRTS, it USED TO list the steps.  If you have this new, handy dandy TASCO catalog, it is spelled out step by step and none of them include every step listed here.  Dan Rinehart added a couple to his dad's original method.   Here's what the ORIGINAL used to say.

1) Rough Flesh while splitting lips, turning ears, and removing the meat around the eyes.

2) lay out flat and salt liberally on one side, turn the hide over and repeat the process.

3) Let the hide salt overnight

4) Rinse excess salt off , shave and final flesh the hide.

5) Lay the flat and pour JRTS on the hide and with your gloved hands make sure that all raw skin is covered witht he cream.  Take care to insure that the ears are done as well.

6) Lay the hide out at room temperature for 6 hours (preferably overnight)

7) Wash hide with a mild soap and warm water. Rinse thoroughly and allow to drip dry.  When dripping stops, towel dry.

8) Mount the skin or roll it up and freeze it until you're ready to mount.


I would add that if you're using the Bondo method for ears that you insure that both sides of the ears (hair and skin) are covered generously with JRTS to insure complete tanning.

The second wash cycle has been added up after salting.  I suppose this is to remove the mud and blood that might be in the hair, but in actuality, this has nothing to do with the tan penetrating or working.  I only wash the hide when I'm removing the tanning cream.
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DSalters
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« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2007, 02:45:12 PM »

Thanks George (I expected to hear from you sooner or later), that is BASICALLY what I do in my process (with the addition of rehydrating the sking after salting and shaving since it's a bit stiffer by that point and with the addition of the mild Pert wash at the very end to clean up the hair side).  I developed my methods off of what I've read from yours (and a couple others) with little modification.  I know yours has slight modification too with the Protex Pre-Soak and washer spin for moisture removal but it's all in fairly close step with the instructions on the jar.

What really got this whole thread started was wanting to know why the last few capes formed those small crystals and felt a bit less stretchy than the others I did in the past.  Secondly, I was wondering if resoaking the hide in the saline solution following salting/shaving was the best thing to do for allowing the tan to penetrate.  It seems like at a certain point of drying, the hide would not take the tanning cream like it should.

I am quite happy with the normal procedure aside from not knowing if that rehydrating soak is the best thing to do.

Now, I've gotten to thinking more about my use of Stop-Rot and the potential for an acid/brine soak in place of the salting.  I know, if it's not broke, why fix it???  If I can eliminate the salting (and thus a lot of mess) and still acheive a leaching of unwanted fluids from within the skin through a acid/brine soak, I would like to look into it.
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oldterryr
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« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2007, 04:47:42 PM »

ggod thread guys
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bushytailhunter
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« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2007, 07:03:23 PM »

George, The Tasco catalog said It Is using the original formula. Do you know if it is the formula before they changed it. I liked the old one better.
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George Roof
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« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2007, 08:22:41 PM »

So did I bucrapailhunter.  It was a MUCH better product in my opinon and I still haven't heard why McKenzie changed it unless they were trying to make their own POS tanning creme look better.  Fat chance.  I have a couple scouts who're ordering it to see if it actually IS the old formula.  If it is, I'll just have to lower my self esteem and order a few cases of it from Dan.  I REALLY liked the old formula and I had those curdled blobs or oil I get now after it's tanned.
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« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2007, 08:56:22 PM »

Daniel, I'll come back to this thread as soon as I can.  I can pass on a fair amount of information that will probably answer a lot of your questions.  Be warned.  You'll probably feel like you are back in the class room.  You ever stop to think about ALL THE STUFF we've had to learn AFTER we got out of school?  Just shows to go ya, we didn't know it all back then after all.
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bushytailhunter
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« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2007, 09:59:33 PM »

George, I'm going to order a gallon myself this week. I will let you Know if you don't find out before that.
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