JRTS Thoughts

[paul e]

Dsalters
Glen is probably going to take you to school
thats a good thing
i still salt when i feel i need to
but
the salt brine/acid soak at pH high 5 does a lot more than it would seem up front
I dont know if Glen will tell the whole story but he might and i hope he does
a lot of new guys havnt heard a lot of this
ill give you a hint
DONT THROW ANYTHING AT ME UNCLE GLEN
1.scavenger enzyme
2.dna flush
3.cell wall bursting
4.stoprot and freezer(better out than when went in)
5.freakish stretch if right steps
6.repeatable findings,stable,less tums,more money,happy cust. etc.,etc.,etc.,

this is the fun part of taxidermy
trying something new
expanding new frontiers of big art form
the art form of skin stabilization
because in my opinion the skin is part of the art form imho

[DSalters]

Glen, I am looking forward to it when you can get to it.  I've been to Glen-school on here before, so I know what I am getting involved with.  We never stop learning, that is for sure...when I get into wanting to know the answer to something like this, I research until I can't take it anymore.  It's a hunger for answers that I just can't seem to avoid

[Dave Hyer]

I still don't understand why people don't use Krowtann

Flesh and turn lips ears and eyes

Put in Krowtann for 3 days

Remove and neutralize for 15 minutes

Shave and mount or freeze.

I don't think it gets much easier. I used to tan with Lutan F,  I also used Curatan, liqua tan, and McKenzie tan, and they don't compare to Krowtann in my opinion.

 Not trying to start any crap at all, i just really don't understand. I'm not a scientist, or a genious or anything like that, but I'm also not a dumbas_ and I know how each one mounted up, and shrunk and finshed and shaved because I actually tried them all ( not just one or two capes each), and I still say, If you haven't tried Krowtann you should.

[George Roof]

Well, Dave, I'm glad you asked that.

It's because Krotann is not a tan in MY BOOK.  It's a pickle-tan and I lived through that era.  It's IS NOT MORE SIMPLE because you're talking about 3 days as a minimum while JRTS can be done after one day.  JRTS is a true tan based on the pH alone and it doesn't need the neutralizing with liquid Tide or anything else.  It doesn't need a special oil to make it work, the lanolin is already in it.  If you prefer actual pickling, then you can do it with either JRTS or with Liqui-tan.  But most of all, the jury is still out on Krotann.  If I'm right and those hides start disintegrating afterh 10 or 15 years as the old pickletans did, then the answer will be obvious.  If, however, they last for a longer period like DP mounts (which they very well might with the improvements in glues and adhesives) then it will still be a moot point.

I've been around a few days and in all that time and with all the different recipes and methods of tanning, I HAVE NEVER SEEN THE AMOUNT OF UNENDING QUESTIONS THAT KROTANN HAS BROUGHT.  If it truly is so "simple", why would there be over 2000 separate entries on this website asking how to use it properly???

[DSalters]

I sure hope this thread didn't get derailed by Krowtann getting brought up.  Hopefully George's comments put that to rest, on this thread at least

[Glen Conley]

WE do not "set the hair" with our actions.

WE do not make leather fibers.  They are already made.

I feel better already, just writing that.

Skin cells ride on top of the fibers (collagen).  The white pickled flesh side of the hide is the fibers.

Almost everyone reading this will be familiar with a whitetail skin.  The ACTUAL cell layer will be just a tiny bit thicker than the length of a mature hair follicle.

I have pulled a thread from the old archives that to be so brief is a pretty classic piece of work.

I took the liberty to color some of the words.  If you didn't hear colorful words like these at the last party you went to, you need some different drinking buddies.

If you don't know the meaning of these words, you're going to have a hard time following and understanding this thread.  Google and ye shall gain the truth and wisdom that thou seeketh.  (The later it gets, the worse I get.)

REMEMBER as you read this, this is dealing with the cellular level, or cellular depth/thickness of the skin, and the fluids are being drawn with salt through the fiber layer.

Salting and its effect on cellular material
Submitted by Yoshan Moodley on 05/15/2003. ( moodleyy@cardiff.ac.uk <Mailto:moodleyy@cardiff.ac.uk> ) 131.251.29.225

Dear Taxidermists
I have been prompted to add this to the Taxidermy.net forum. I am sure that most of you are aware of most of this, but please read further if you think that this may be of interest to you.

When an animal is skinned and fleshed in the field, the best way to preserve its skin is to liberally apply rough salt (Sodium Chloride) to it and leave it to dry. Salt acts as a dehydrator and absorbs moisture (or [cytosolic fluid/color]) from the skin ([/epithelialcolor]) cells, markedly speeding up the drying process. It this rapid dehydration of cytosolic fluid that enables the epithelial skin cells to retain much of their intracellular organelles such as nuclei and mitochondria. If skin was simply left out to dry in the sun without the application of salt, then there would be enough time for the degradation of cellular material by proteases and  lysozymeshoused within the cell. If, on the other hand, the skin dried quickly enough to beat this degradation, the heat required to dry it this quickly would end up causing a similar amount of organelle and structural (cytoskeletal) damage. So, you see, there is no getting away from it, salting is the best way to preserve skins in the field. The quality of salt used may sometimes cause problems with the quality of the skins after tanning and it is always important that your clients make sure that the salt they use is first grade.
 
From a DNA perspective, dry-salted skin harbours a gold mine of epithelial skin cells, each with more or less intact nuclei and mitochondria - the two organelles that harbour all our DNA. This is why we require only a small piece of skin for DNA studies. When we receive the skin piece we incubate it in an isotonic solution with 1% sodium dodecyl sulphate (SDS) and about 200ug/ml of proteinase. SDS is a powerful detergent which lyses the cell membrane which is made of fats or lipids. Then the proteinase chomps up the proteins of the cell indiscriminately, releasing the DNA molecules from the nucleus and mitochondria. We then apply phenol to get rid of the protein debris and separate these from the aqueous liquid which should by now contain just the DNA in solution. It is as simple as that!

Every now and then we receive pieces of skin from animals that have died in the veld and have decomposed naturally. The hard skin, with cells completely degraded, may still house DNA, but without the protection of the cytoskeleton and the nucleus, this DNA has been broken up into very small pieces by the action of UV radiation from the sun. Luckily technology is of such a standard these days that we can even make use of this degraded DNA in genetics, although much more effort must be applied in order to get these samples to work in the lab.
 
The most tragic element of taxidermy and museum curation is the tanning of skins. When this happens, the cellular and biological elements of the epithelial cells are replaced by chemical ones. The skin is virtually DNA free and is useless for any genetic or forensic investigations. It is unfortunate that tanned skins look and feel so much nicer than dry-salted ones and I do not blame taxidermists one bit for preferring to work with skins in this form.
 
I thank you for reading through this and hope that it has been of some help.
Sincerely
Yoshan Moodley
Cardiff University
Wales

Addition.  It looks like I am having problems with my security settings and Active X controls, and it is too late in the day for me to mess with those.  Google any words you are not familiar with.  G'night, All!

[George Roof]

THANK YOU GLEN.  I keep going back to the old archives and using that but with my memory, it's harder and harder to find.  Now at least it will be on the NEW forums.  When anyone tells me that their process doesn't "need" salt, I want to have this available.

[DSalters]

Thanks for posting that, Glen.  In fact, I read it yesterday prior to your post.  From this and what I've gathered before from your posts in the archives, I have come up with this visual of the hide's structure:  There is a thin cellular layer only as deep as the hair follicles.  Below that is the thick (relative to the epithelial layer) fibrous network of collagen that is easily permeable.

Two things come to mind from this:

1.  I know the cell membrane is permeable due to certain actions that take place with living cells.  What I do not know is how many cells are layered.  Perhaps this point does not matter.  My question though is:  Whether we are drawing cytosolic fluid from the cells through salt or replacing it with an acid/brine or a tan, is it a fairly fast process?  The reason I ask is because of the different time it takes for certain actions to be complete:

-dry salting ~3 days
-pickling with strong acid/brine ~3 days
-submersible tans ~24 hours
-soft acid/brine soak ~1 hour
-brush-on tan ~6 hours

(These times are just for example, I know there's variations)

2.  In Yoshan's post, he speaks about the DNA being preserved through salting because the mitochondria and nuclei still remain.  When reading about the 5-6 pH, hour soak of acid/salt, people mention the DNA and cytosolic fluid being drawn out of the cells and "floating to the top".  Is this really what is occuring?  If so, why does it occur so quickly here?

I know there are tons of ways to preserve hides and many work, but through this thread, I hope to learn WHAT is going on in this process.  The archives are loaded with good information, examples of which are Yoshan's post that I came across yesterday right before you posted it.  There's also TONS of people's opinions about the process as well.  I cannot settle for "You have to salt it because that's how I've always done it" or "You have to salt it to set the hair" or "You have to pickle it because I've always pickled and it works for me".

Glen, you should feel better from those first two sentences.  It's so straightforward but yet taken for granted.  

[Dave Hyer]

George
I think we both know why there are so many questions about Krowtann. The directions supplied with it aren't the best, but they do tell you how to use it. 90% of the questions used here are answered on the directions. I still get directions with every order I receive. Like I said, I'm no genious, and I don't have near the time in this as you do, but I know that the hides I use shave just like the Lutan F hides, and they mount up better than the capes I have had commercially tanned ( dry, not wet tanned) shrinkage has never been a problem, i use buckeye supreme for ears as well as the rest of the form. I don't card anything(except ear edges), I will put a few pins by the arm pits and maybe a few in the neck and thats it. No staples or any thing else. I sure can't tell you what will happen 10 -15 years from now, that's for sure. I have never tried the JRTS, but I will, just because i am open for anything that works, and I'm smart enough to know that I don't know everything. I'll let you know what I think of it.

[Dave Hyer]

George
I went back and reread your directions for the JRTS and it says you shave after salting over night. I have to think that doing that really sucks. The hide gets all shrunk up and hard, I can't imagine it shaves very good at all. It's also got to be hell on your fleshing machine. Just curious, not giving you a hard time, just really wondering how that compares to shaving a hide that has been pickled?

Dsalters, I didn't realize that us Krowtann dummies couldn't reply to one of your posts. I believe I can learn from anyone, how about you.

[Glen Conley]

All you Boyz had best behave, or I'll send you all back to work with no 'puter for the rest of the day.

Daniel, you are coming up with some really good questions and statements.  Those are going to help keep this thread on a roll.

Unc, I know what you mean by not being able to remember all this stuff.  There is only so much stuff that will fit in that little narrow space between a feller's ears.

Old crop forgets, new crop comes in, they'll learn, then they will forget...........maybe.

Memory refresher.  I posted the salt effect thread here because we are going to wind up spinning it around.  Read Daniel's writings and you will see that he is already starting to see the possibilities for the spin.

Refresher session #1.
Uncle George,
Submitted by Glen Conley on 3/14/06 at 9:57 AM. ( g.conley@verizon.net <Mailto:g.conley@verizon.net> ) 70.104.122.241
I realize that it was a thing of bad timing when you received the skin sample I sent you. Did you get a chance to rehydrate or otherwise torture the piece?
Return to Tanning Category Menu </forums/TanningMenu.html>

Yes I did, Glen
This response submitted by George on 3/14/06 at 10:41 AM. ( georoof@aol.com <Mailto:georoof@aol.com> ) 152.163.100.11
That's a phenomenal piece of leather. Now are you gonna tell me WHAT IT IS? Or are you just going to keep me guessing? LOL

Uncle George,
This response submitted by Glen on 3/14/06 at 11:15 AM. (  <Mailto:>) 70.104.122.241
I never could nail it down as to how many years old that piece is. The best I can do is that it is between six and eight years old.
Awhile back you made a post about a *sailer cat that you had put into a King Edwards cigar box as a kid and then found it years later while tearing the barn down. The hair was still intact. That was phenomenal too, huh?
How many years old was the sailer cat?
Gotta go for now, this working thing is interfering with my play time.
*sailer cats and sailer rabbits were what kids had back before Frisbees.

I guess I left you guessing, didn't I?  Or did you forget? (True confession.  I forgot)

The piece above was done without salt (as sodium chloride).

There is a big reason why salt is used.
CHEAP!                     CHEAP!                          CHEAP
For the rest of you guys, at the time, I had set up a page at this address with more details on the skin sample discussed above.  It is still available on the web, you just need the direct address:
www.hidetanning.net/GeorgeBrittanica1.html

[DSalters]

Dave, no offense intended on the Krowtann comment.  You are not a "Krowtann dummy" and are of course welcome to post here.  I said what I did because I've seen threads get sent in totally different directions with comments that appear irrelevant on the surface even if that wasn't the intent of the poster. 

[Dave Hyer]

I don't mean to appear defensive, but most times when ever you post anything, some one is waiting to rip your as_ . I apologize for over reacting a bit.

[George Roof]

Dave, actually the hide shaves beautifully.  It really isn't all shriveled up like you might expect since the hide is not actually DRY yet.  Just that the fluids have all been removed.  I rinse off the salt, towel dry and shave.  It shaves ALMOST as well as if it was pickled, but obviously to a lesser degree as the hide is not "plumped" as with the acid pickle.

[Glen Conley]

1. I know the cell membrane is permeable due to certain actions that take place with living cells. What I do not know is how many cells are layered. Perhaps this point does not matter. My question though is: Whether we are drawing cytosolic fluid from the cells through salt or replacing it with an acid/brine or a tan, is it a fairly fast process? The reason I ask is because of the different time it takes for certain actions to be complete:

-dry salting ~3 days
-pickling with strong acid/brine ~3 days
-submersible tans ~24 hours
-soft acid/brine soak ~1 hour
-brush-on tan ~6 hours

(These times are just for example, I know there's variations)

********
Daniel, I have been trying to figure out a simple answer to your questions above, and I am striking out.  There's just way too many variables.

Chemical reactions "can" take place at the speed of light.

Dry salting, the salt has to "draw" moisture, since it is hygroscopic by nature it can do that. 

However, the salt first has to draw the fluids out of the fibers before the actual cytosolic fluids from the actual cells will give up their moisture.  Note that proteins are left behind in the cell.

A chicken egg is a single cell, think in terms of dried egg.

The question that would then have to be asked is, "How important are these left behind proteins in pickling and tanning, are they even needed?".
********** 
2. In Yoshan's post, he speaks about the DNA being preserved through salting because the mitochondria and nuclei still remain. When reading about the 5-6 pH, hour soak of acid/salt, people mention the DNA and cytosolic fluid being drawn out of the cells and "floating to the top". Is this really what is occuring? If so, why does it occur so quickly here?
**********
Daniel, when I was a little kid and saw photographs of paired chromosomes that were taken with the aid of an electron microscope, I just couldn't understand as to how those magical scientists could get all those chromosome pairs laid out like a pinned butterfly collection, and then take a picture of them.  That's the kind of stuff that can really screw over a kid's head.

I was up in my teens before I ever found out how the magic was done.

A saline solution with a pH of 6 was used to explode the cell specimens, the suspended contents were photographed.  This makes something like a mess of cell contents.  Scientists would then develope the photos, visually sort out the pairs and THEN cut out the chromosome strands with SCISSORS, lay the photographed and paired strands out, and photograph the photograph.  I still have to give someone credit for being able to visually sort all that out and pair up strands.  That's a little different than the extraction techniques that Yoshan described.  With that being said, I think you can see the practicallity of the practice for tanning purposes.  You have in essence removed the contents of the egg and left the membrane.

This would be easier if the questions were asked in a FAQ format.  I'll see if I can sort out your other questions into some kind of order to give a ballpark kind of answer.  We haven't even scratched the surface yet.  It would take a volume.