JRTS Thoughts

[David Patton]

hygroscopic 
   main Entry: hy·gro·scop·ic 
Pronunciation: \ˌhī-grə-ˈskä-pik\
Function: adjective
Etymology: hygroscope, an instrument showing changes in humidity + 1-ic; from the use of such materials in the hygroscope
Date: 1790
1 : readily taking up and retaining moisture
2 : taken up and retained under some conditions of humidity and temperature <hygroscopic water in clay>

Daniel, when I was a little kid and saw photographs of paired chromosomes that were taken with the aid of an electron microscope, I just couldn't understand as to how those magical scientists could get all those chromosome pairs laid out like a pinned butterfly collection, and then take a picture of them.  That's the kind of stuff that can really screw over a kid's head.

Ahhhh, so that's what happened to Glen....we were wondering about that!

[DSalters]

Glen,

You have the section regarding this practice of using a 5-6 pH acid/brine followed with moving on to the regular salting process.  How do you feel about this when used instead of salting and before tanning (as Paul E mentioned earlier)?  I cannot find any good means of searching the archives (new or old) on this becuase of wording choices.

[oldterryr]

glen conley needs to change his screen name to "einstein"

[DSalters]

I'm only addressing that question to him because his website posts the recommendation for that process...otherwise, I'd have addressed it generally and left Glen alone

[DSalters]

Here is a quote from a 2002 Glen Conley post:

The ultimate goal of salting? Depends on who you ask. Let's pretend
you asked me and I give my response and reasons.
We will now have to add to the confusion and introduce acids into the
quo. If you haven't caught the gist yet, your questions caught up a lot
of complicated cycles and re-actions. Cool thing about being human, we
can learn and apply quickly. I use a mild acid solution, I want it to
dissolve nothing more than need be and do the least amount of damage to
skin and hair as possible. I do not salt 'til dry, and here's why.
Remember that chicken egg? Food, right? You have an epidermal layer
of cells over an epitheal layer of cells over a fibrous collagen layer
that in turn contains a lot of soluble (hydrophilic) proteins between
it's "weave". Dry salting will draw out the soluble proteins and a lot
of undesireable acids from the collagen structures, but if the skin
cells have not ruptured from lack of hydraulic pressures to support them,
the contents (food part) can simply dry up with in the cell membrane.
Some acids don't care, and they're going to get in there and dissolve
things out any way, but they are also a little more caustic by nature.
To empty out the cells, I make a 50% saline solution, then I add acid
to take the pH down between 5.5 and 5.9. I then put the skin in this
for 20 minutes to 5 hours depending on how thick, dirty and bloody it
is (that's a fleshed skin). This is something you will have no trouble
in making a visual judgement call on. This trick blows the regulatory
valves, spewing cell contents. The skin is then drained, salted and
rolled up in such a manner to allow fluids to drain away from the skin.
It should take but an over night draining and the skin is ready to go
into the acid solution.
Jason, if your socks and blue jeans can be hung outside on a clothes line
and they don't dry, don't expect a skin to dry either.

[Glen Conley]

Glen,

You have the section regarding this practice of using a 5-6 pH acid/brine followed with moving on to the regular salting process.  How do you feel about this when used instead of salting and before tanning (as Paul E mentioned earlier)?  I cannot find any good means of searching the archives (new or old) on this becuase of wording choices.

Daniel, the post you had pulled up was from 2002, STOP-ROT was released on the market that same year.

The piece of cape scrap that I sent to Uncle George was done somewhere back before then.  That's the one that salt, as sodium chloride wasn't used on.

Magnesium sulphate (as Epsom Salts) was used instead.  The cape was put through three different pre-soaks (pH just below 6), and then pickled in an acid and mag sul solution (pH would have been a ballpark of 2).

You're looking at a total of 14 pounds of Epsom Salts used for that.  Today's price on Epsom Salt about everywhere is $2-3 per pound.  That's a tad higher than the price of stock salt.

That particular cape was half rotten, and the hunter that took the deer offered up another hundred bucks to save it.  That helps to cover the cost of material.

Let me repeat, we are going back to 2002, there's been a few things evolve since then.

Daniel, I can hear your mental gears grinding from here.  I "think" I may know what you are fishing for.

[Laurier]

and I w'ont even go their . LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[DSalters]

Fishing implies that I am trying to get an answer out of someone that they might not want to give...what I'm doing is more like thinking from differernt angles.  I can see my thoughts going in a couple different directions as well.  The gears that are turning are definitely not Glen-proof.

One thing I am thinking is regarding the role of this process.  In one way, it sounds like a predecessor to Stop-Rot.  On the other hand, it is being used by some IN ADDITION TO Stop-Rot.

[Glen Conley]

Fishing implies that I am trying to get an answer out of someone that they might not want to give...what I'm doing is more like thinking from differernt angles.

It might also mean that someone may not be able to give you a totally accurate, or simple answer.  Keep thinking.

The gears that are turning are definitely not Glen-proof.

Is that anything like rat proof?  Do you realize that what a lot of people refer to as fancy legs on antique tables was actually practical application?  Some of the designs were of such a nature that rats couldn't climb the legs and get on the table top.

One thing I am thinking is regarding the role of this process.  In one way, it sounds like a predecessor to Stop-Rot.  On the other hand, it is being used by some IN ADDITION TO Stop-Rot.

YEP!  On both counts.

This is where things start getting tricky, and where I get hesitant to give out information.  The hesitancy is due to someone reading through this kind of stuff, picking up on a few key words they can identify without understanding the rest of the words, or be able to correlate, and then go screw something up.  (David, the hygroscopic definition was a real nice touch.  How many people after reading that thought in terms of salt left in a skin/cape would also draw moisture from the air?  See what I mean?  I like hearing, and reading about peoples' successes, not their failures.  If I wanted bad news, I would read the newspapers)

Fact of life.  Acids are different.  Probably thousands in existance.  I would not even want to try to guess the number of acids in a living or dead system.

With the pre-soak treatment, many common acids will no doubt work, BUT that doesn't mean they will all yield optimum results.

Acids CAN burn.

For safe handling reasons, I believe that a pH below 3 is what is generally regarded as being threatening to human skin, and other body parts, meaning probability or possibilty of burns exists.  Now that's from the hair side that you read so much about.  The first layer of defense side.  For tanning purposes, our main attack is through the back side, or flesh side if you don't like the idea of a back side attack.

DAVID!  Where's the definition for:

CAUTERIZE?

We're waiting on David now.

[oldshaver]

cauterize 
   


Main Entry: cau·ter·ize 
Pronunciation: \ˈkȯ-tə-ˌrīz\
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): cau·ter·ized; cau·ter·iz·ing
Date: 14th century
1 : to sear with a cautery or caustic <cauterize a wound>
2 : to make insensible : deaden <must oust the feeling, or cauterize it — Robert Craft>
— cau·ter·i·za·tion  \ˌkȯ-tə-rə-ˈzā-shən\ noun

Im not trying to answer for David, but I wish you would continue on, for curiousitys sake. I found an acid, that made me wonder about your statement,"there are many kinds of acid", and the direction you are headed, with this topic. There is not one person on this forum, that has got my old wheels to grinding, more than you have. Merry Christmas!

[Glen Conley]

Glad to see you jump in on this one, oldshaver, saves me from having to drag you into it.  Also, thanks for the official definition, quite a bit like I remember it.  I'll take #1 please.

1 : to sear with a cautery or caustic <cauterize a wound>

I like that "to sear".  Kinda makes me think about when I cook a steak, I'll sear it on each side to seal the juices in....................

HEY!  By any chance would a lot of those juices be cytosolic and extra-cellular fluids?

Next question (1 : to sear with a cautery or caustic <cauterize a wound>),  would an acid solution with a pH below 3 be considered a caustic?  Would it sear the flesh side of a cape?  If so, what "components", or make-up of the skin would be seared?

To keep continuity, here's some of Daniel's questions/statements:
Whether we are drawing cytosolic fluid from the cells through salt or replacing it with an acid/brine or a tan, is it a fairly fast process? The reason I ask is because of the different time it takes for certain actions to be complete:
-dry salting ~3 days
-pickling with strong acid/brine ~3 days
-submersible tans ~24 hours
-soft acid/brine soak ~1 hour
-brush-on tan ~6 hours

[oldshaver]

First question -yes.

Second question, yes a ph below 3 would be considered a caustic, if you take the definition of caustic literally. Able to eat away, a substance. Untannable protiens are being seered. Come back!

[Glen Conley]

First question -yes.

Second question, yes a ph below 3 would be considered a caustic, if you take the definition of caustic literally. Able to eat away, a substance. Untannable protiens are being seered. Come back!

10-4, Ol' Buddy!

Now wait a second, you said, "Untannable proteins are being seered."  (You may not know it, but I HATE that friggin' tan word.  It's like car, or truck.  What kind of truck?  Toyota pick-up, or a Mac?)  How did that untannable protein phrase come to be? (Actually it no doubt goes back to the time when tanning was actually done with natural tannins, no one ever bothered to upgrade it.)

Above I had made statements, and then countered with a question.
"However, the salt first has to draw the fluids out of the fibers before the actual cytosolic fluids from the actual cells will give up their moisture.  Note that proteins are left behind in the cell.

A chicken egg is a single cell, think in terms of dried egg.

The question that would then have to be asked is, "How important are these left behind proteins in pickling and tanning, are they even needed?"."

To make my point, I am going to add a picture to this thread.  It is a photo of a cape your crew tanned.  It was taken from this address:  www.hidetanning.net/FreezerBurnedCape.html

If I knew where I have the original picture stored, I would rather use it, but we'll make do with what we got.

Now, around the edge of the lips and mouth corners, remnants of muscle meat were at the very edges, and these were obviously TANNED!  By traditional "tan definition" wouldn't that be considered impossible!?!

Now we're coming to the point we can start separating out some differences, after oldshaver tries to deny he and crew do the impossible every day.

[oldshaver]

From my readings, Yes, proteins being left behind, are a necessity, to help preserve the longevity of the skin, and protect it from environmental influences.(red rot) This is the main reason you shouldn't pickle with sulphuric, or any other HOT acids. They remove all these proteins, and leave the skin vulnerable.

[Glen Conley]

From my readings, Yes, proteins being left behind, are a necessity, to help preserve the longevity of the skin, and protect it from environmental influences.(red rot) This is the main reason you shouldn't pickle with sulphuric, or any other HOT acids. They remove all these proteins, and leave the skin vulnerable.

Oldshaver, we are going to have to start watching our language.  There are going to be people reading this that are at entry level, and if we are too vague, we might do more harm than good and create additional confusion.

I'll see if I can't sort out a photo or two to help clarify statements.  How about you add red rot to our glossary?