Muzzleloader Hunters

[Gunny]

I need your input. I just bought a Knight Wolverine, 50 Cal. last weekend. I have absolutely no experience with a muzzleloader. I need to dial it in to harvest a  Blacktail. So I geared up Thomson/Center Maxi-Hunter 275 Grain rounds, Pyrodex Pellets, No 11 Magnum caps. I was TRYING to set my dope at 50 yards with a two pellet charge (100 GR) and could not for the life of me get a group. And yes I am VERY well versed on sight alignment, sight picture and trigger control. Boomstick can take up to 150 Grains of powder. where should I start playing. Is the round to light/heavy? What is a good starting point for the charge? Does it matter how hard you pack it, that effects the trajectory? Anything that can guide me would be appreciated. Because after that first outing there is absolutely no way in hell I am going out in the field.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Thanks, GUNNY

[Joe t]

i use to black powder hunt just really haven't messed with it in a while i used 90 grains black powder and used the ball not those big maxi hunters and regular cap Pennsylvania long riffle.you have to powder patch seat them pretty darn hard.i would bye the pre lubed patches.it was a deadly combination it would cut its own hole time after time. that is a heavy bullet try the 150 grains of powder.it sounds like its not going the distance.I'm sure its dropping before target .what distance are you shotting at 50 yards or 100 yards?

[Glen Conley]

Gunny, sounds to me like the diameter of the round could be your problem.  If you don't have a set of micrometers, this could be a little hard to sort out.

First off, if sabots are legal where you will be hunting, you would be best off going that route.

The barrel on that weapon will probably take either a .501 diameter round, or a .500 diameter.

If you are having to force the projectile to get it started, and then it continues to be hard to push down the barrel until seated, the diameter is probably going to be too large.

If you have one with a smaller bore, you can roll yer own rounds by using TC sabot jackets with Hornaday's pistol bullets.  That will give you an exact .500 diameter round.

Two other things. I'm a believer in breaking in a barrel.  Complete clean every three rounds, including wire brushing until the first fifty rounds have been fired through, AND every now and then a bad barrel is put out.  If changing load sizes doesn't fix it, you might find a machine shop with a bore gauge and have them check the barrel.

You can also call Knight, their customer service is excellent.  At a hundred yards you should be able to group in a 3/4" bull's eye.

[mr.T aka mr. friendly]

I shoot a 45 cal. 245 grain pistol bullet with sabot with 100 grains of American Pioneer powder in my 50. I find that the first shot in a clean gun is not the one to go by, as the second will be different coming out of a dirty barrel. I swab the barrel out with one or two passes with solvent on a rag, then follow with two dry rags after each shot. Not doing so will build up fouling and each shot will be different from the last. The Maxi balls will leave a lead buildup also, if you can use Sabots, go that way. The dirtier the buildup after the shots, the more resistance of the bullet coming out. Phyrodex will foul some but not as much as Black Powder will. Loading the same way, swabbing the barrel in between shots the same way, repeating the steps the same way will give you consistency. Stick to one charge size and one bullet. If you patch and round ball, place the grain of the patch in the lands of the barrel the same way everytime when loading. Burning 150 grains is a waste to me as some of that is burnt outside the barrel, IMO. But constantly jumping around with charge sizes and bullet weights is chasing the wind.

[Craig R]

A friend of mine has a Knight and he ended up shooting certain ammo Knight suggested. It was the only way he got his gun to accurately group at longer ranges. Call Knight and ask them what shoots best in their guns. It will save you a lot of head scratching.

I was told you don't want to pack those powder pellets. Mark your ram rod where you should stop and just get some even firm pressure on them. Crushing them does something that effects the burn. The reason you mark your ramrod is because you don't want space between your powder charge and bullet as it could blow up the barrel. Maybe it's different with Pyrodex but that's what I was told and read about those pellets.

If using some of those powder pellets the pressures exceed what the weights of the pellets are, compared to loose powder, so be careful and ask someone before changing powders, if you decide that might be an option. I shoot Triple 7 and although I have a magnum shooter I can't load three 50 grain pellets without exceeding the maximum pressures. I have never found a need to either, as two 50 grain pellets do the job quite effectively. I think the pressures are equivalent to 118 grains of loose powder. So you can see where 3 pellets would be if you do the math.

While sighting in it is always a good idea to swab (clean, in the case of muzzleloaders) between rounds. I even swab while sighting in between rounds with high power rifles.

[paul e]

had a knight
could not get it to shoot a good group not matter what i did
sold it

[Charles]

since the subject of blackpowder is being bandied about, I have one for you guys.....years ago I bought a flintlock kit and put it together and it shot fine...so I have limited experiance, but recently I bought a CVA Hawken .50 percussion.....can I use Pyrodex pellets for my charge? I heard I cannot use sabots with the plastic sleeve as the twist in my barrel affects it somehow...thanks for any input....

[mr.T aka mr. friendly]

no on the phyrodex pellets Charles, buy you can use the phyrodex powder. The #11 cap is not hot enough to set off the pellets unless the pellet is right next to it, and then it may set off to slow, or delay.

I have an old Knight 50 that uses # 11 cap and although it is finicky about not firing unless it is clean, it does shoot a laser beam and is very accurate, but will not fire with the pellets because of the tapered breach plug that keeps the pellet 3/4" away from the cap. So a cap will work if it sets butt up to the pellet, but  the #11 cap is not hot enough sometimes for 100% ignition on pellets.

[Charles]

no on the phyrodex pellets Charles, buy you can use the phyrodex powder. The #11 cap is not hot enough to set off the pellets unless the pellet is right next to it, and then it may set off to slow, or delay.

Thanks for the info Mr T, I will try the powder.......and what are the differences between the caps, no. 10 or 11? And is there a particular type of powder by Pyrodex? Is it still ffg, fffg, etc.....

[mr.T aka mr. friendly]

10's are for pistols an 11's for rifles. And I gave away my Phyrodex powder and changed to Jim Shocky's Gold by American Pioneer Powder, it's seems cleaner. Phyrodex is ok, I just wanted something cleaner as I swab between shots and like the new stuff. I still use Black Powder in the old knight as that is what it likes best. I think the Phyro is still graded with the same F scale.

[Gunny]

Thanks for the input. Joe, I was on the target, the problem was the unacceptable dinner plate grouping. If you can even call that a grouping. I was shooting off a rest, 100 grains was the max charge I used for the maiden voyage. Maybe I just need to pump some rounds out of it, to get it seasoned like you said, Glen. And I was swabbing after every three rounds. Next, I will swab after every round. And give Knight a call. Appreciate the input. Joe, Glen, T, CTracker

[oldshaver]

Sabots are now obsolite. Powerbelt bullets are the way to go. They leave very little plastic residue in the rifeling, and will actually add more fps. You have enough problems with powder residue caking up the rifeling, without adding plastic residue to the mix.

[WST]

I have a Knight MK85. I shoot 90 grains of pyrodex with a Hornaday 385 grain buffalo bullet. That load shoots great.

[George Roof]

Paul E, I love you man.  Said like a gentleman.  Tony Knight gets a lot of publicity on his firearms, but as a whole, I have yet to find one worth melting down into a plowshare.    If you're serious about muzzleloading,there's only one Thompson Center Encore.  I've used them all, even custom made them myself for years, but T/C markets the most accurate black powder gun available anywhere. 

Gunny, you have a lot of things going against a guy who knows how to shoot. I'm not saying that in an insulting way, just factually.  I am a certified instructor of the National Muzzleloading Rifle Association and I see it many times.  Pyrodex was advertised as the salvation of ML hunting to replace the "highly corrosive black powder".  Well black powder doesn't hold a candle to Pyrodex.  Black powder is carbon based and does corrode, but Pyrodex can ruin a stainless steel gun quicker than black powder because of the chemical reactions.  Triple 7 (it took 777 attempts before Hodgedon got it right) eliminates most of that problem. The Wolverine can be adapted with a Knight Red Hot Nipple to use musket caps which will assist your ignition time.  They also sell a 209 primer conversion kit, but if you take that step, DO NOT USE SHOTGUN PRIMERS.  They are too hot and will form a "crud ring" about 3 inches down your barrel that's impossible to remove with a brush and cleaning jag.  Use either .410 primers of the Remington Kleanbore.

OS, you and I agree on most things, but I have to go against the grain on the idea that sabots are obsolete.  The Powerbelt bullet is a great projectile, but is notorious for keyholing if the powder charge isn't perfect.   Even T/C recognized that and it has designed the Shock Wave Super Glide Sabots .  It really won't get any better than that.  Nikon teamed with T/C and the Encore to produce the Omega scope with variable crosshair dedications.  Using their 250 grain Spire Point bullet with 150 grains of Triple 7 pellets (or 120 grains of loose Triple 7 - there IS a big disparity there in "measuring"), I can zero in at 100 yards and hit a target at 250 yards using the variable gradations.  I shot just for the hell of it at our recent qualification certifications and I had a one inch group at 100 yards with 5 rounds.  I put a clay pigeon target on the backstop at 200 yards and disintegrated it simply by using the 200 yard designated crosshair.    I'd shot the PowerBelt 270 grain Aerotip with 100 grains of Triple 7 pellets and had a 4 inch group at 100 yards.  SAME GUN.

Just a tip for all you charcoal shooters out there.  The very easiest way to clean you gun after firing it is to put a round toothpick in your touchhole and fill the barrel with Windex or Windshield Washer Fluid.  Set it aside for 30 minutes to an hour.  Pull the toothpick and let some fluid flush your touchhole, then pour out the remained.  Run a dry patch down the barrel, then run one with Bore Butter or equivalent lubricant down the barrel and you're done.  Works on all types and makes.  Use a fine grade machine oil to wipe down the outside of the firearm and you're done done.

[Gunny]

Thanks for the input George, Picked up some triple seven and some 410 grain bullets. Went out for a second outing today. I started at 80 grains and went up to 100 grains in 5 grain increments. Shot the tightest at 90 grains of powder. Got her down to an inch 1/4 group at 100 yards before it got dark. I was pretty jacked, being that I'm a Boot muzzleloader. At least I know I can go out in the field and hunt with it know.