Need comments/feedback on spray tan

[Chasha]

OK here's my deal - i had a local taxi teach me how to mount whitetails a couple years ago.  He used Ben Mears spray tan method so that is what I'm using.  I don't claim to know much about the whole pickling process and such.  I've read a lot of old forums and there's alot about dp but not a lot about the spray tan.  What do you call the spary tan?  Is it a wet preservative as apposed to a dry preservative.  Hit me with the good, bad and the ugly about the spary tan method.  I've personally had great luck with it.

[oldterryr]

.................then why are u wanting to change

[George Roof]

Ken Bauman used it for years and has some exceptional work he did with it.  I've seen Ben's work with it and it, too, is exceptional.  All that being said, it's simply DP in a bottle.  All you need to do is to check the pH of the spray.  It's either mildly acidic or mildly alkali, but a TAN needs to be more acidic.  A pickle is pure acid (at least for me it is as I like a 1.0) while a tan is between 4-5.

[KBauman]

Definitely not a tan.  If you are going to use it, you better make sure you can flesh and shave to a thin perfection.  Anything less, and your problems will begin. 

[Glen Conley]

WARNING FOR UNSUSPECTING AND INNOCENT BEGINNERS!

A pickle is pure acid (at least for me it is as I like a 1.0) while a tan is between 4-5.

To try and get a pH as described above could well be a disaster with given acids!  Check with your SUPPLIER for the suggested pH.  This new format allows illustration based on facts versus opinions.  I'll illustrate.

I flushed a piece of the dermis of a whitetail in order to show you what the collagen fibers (what leather fibers are made from) look like in their intact (green) state.  This is your first reference point.

If you are a person that needs a more simple illustration in order to perceive, I have provided a link to Protein Data Bank that has a number of excellent illustrations and explanations.

http://www.rcsb.org/pdb/static.do?p=education_discussion/molecule_of_the_month/pdb4_1.html

What that link IS NOT going to provide you is a literal or visual explanation of acid swell.

[Glen Conley]

This photo shows one of the rope like structures like you saw above unfurling.  Acid (formic) is causing this.  You can produce the same results by using hot water.  The degree of disassociation of the collagen structure that you see here will start to take place at about 160 F., by 212 F., the three proteins that make up the structure will have been disassociated all together and have became denatured.  The swelling of the proteins caused by water will look pretty much the same as that caused by acid.  A pH check of the skin will help to identify which swell.  I might also point out you could no doubt actually have a combination of both acid and water swell under the right conditions.

Think in terms of cooking with acid instead of cooking with a stove burner.  The thing they both have in common is that they BURN.

[Glen Conley]

These next three photos show you what the dermis looks like when it is burned up with an acid (citric) concentration.

First photo shows a piece of the skin next to a pencil.

Second shows an enlarged overall view of the same skin sample.

Third view has been enlarged hundreds of times.  You can see that there isn't a whole lot of room for ANY THING to penetrate through a mass like this.  Not only that, but everything is basically "fused or welded" together.  In most cases, it is pretty much worthless.  Some can be salvaged, BUT the material cost in dollar and cents, and in labor can add up in a hurry.

[George Roof]

Glen, I must've missed something along the way.  I don't think Bruce Rittel, Van Dykes or McKenzie carry perchloric acid, do they? I stopped using hydrochloric acid about 1970 and today, you'd probably need a license to even get the stuff for a high school chemistry class. I guess I SHOULD have noted that I wasn't referring to undiluted acid but rather DILUTED ACID that still maintained a 1.0 pH.  How's that?  And the last time I thought about boiling a hide before I tanned it, I woke up in a cold sweat.  Methinks you're having a microbiology brain fart here and have hi-jacked a thread about SPRAY TAN.

[Chasha]

OT
I'm not wanting to change but the guy that taught me said there is some "controversy" over the use of spray tan. So I was just trying to get some opinion of people who may have used it.

[Chasha]

Definitely not a tan.  If you are going to use it, you better make sure you can flesh and shave to a thin perfection.  Anything less, and your problems will begin. 

Ken
The guy who taught me told me the same thing about thinning the hides so that's what I've been doing.  For my knowledge, what kinds of problems will you start seeing if you aren't getting them thinned enough?