Old fashioned fish competition.

[John C]

I  would like to see a plain old fashioned fish mount competition.

No artifical part.

No cast parts.

No commercial parts except eyes and paint or   foam body.

Parts can be rebuilt with epoxy, fins must be backed with a product.

Seams on wall mounts dont have to be perfect and wall mounts are judged seperate than peds.
Ped. mount must have seam reconstructed.

Body can be carved or cast or filled or commercial.

Pretty simple rules and a real test of the skills of the taxidermist, not model fish kits crap.

Are you in or out for the competition?

Skin mount no cast parts rules are listed above.

Get with it or get out!!!

[Terry]

John,

I know that you have been at this game a lot longer than the vast majority of us, and will probably outlast a good number of those on here today, so I am guessing that your post originates from the richness of your experiences. I also am guessing- and please correct me if I'm wrong- that your comment about "model fish kits crap" refers to commercial fiberglass reproductions, and possibly this post is an extension of the post yesterday that Jim posted about skin mounts and reproductions in competitions.

I didn't weigh in on that discussion, though I read with quite a bit of interest the responses about the experiences and opinions of those who did. From what I gather, while it varies from state to state and competition to competition, most places do separate out for skin mounts and for reproductions. Therefore most competitions- or at least many- already keep the "model fish kit crap" separate from the the skin mounts. So it seems to me that- while it might not be this way everywhere or where you are located/compete- that this shouldn't be an issue.

I'm fairly new to fish taxidermy. I do skin mounts and reproductions. And I won't deny I get a kick out of reproductions, in trying to bring something totally white to a point of looking real/alive. I'm not there but several gentlemen on here are very, very close. The goal of either- whether reproduction or skin mount- is to create something that mimics/looks like a live fish as close as the materials we use and our abilities will allow us to get it.

From that standpoint, I guess I take exception a bit with your term for reproductions. While I have a huge amount of respect and admiration for those that have made molding and casting fish an artform, such as Gary or Josh, there are many of us on here who use commercial reproductions, and for valid reasons specific to our own personal situations. Many of those individuals who do use commercial reproductions- such as a Rick Krane or a Dave Campbell- produce fish that are much, much closer to life like/alive in appearance than 99.5% will EVER get, whether we use a plain, old fashioned real fish or a reproduction.

Honestly, I have no problem with separate categories as they now exist at many competitions. I hope to be somewhere where or have the financial means to be able to compete someday (it's just not cost effective now). To some of the deeper questions Jim posed, I'm not sure I have an opinion. And I can totally get what you would like to see, in your old fashioned competition. Those who produce incredible skin mounts, such as with a Doug P, are incredible artists; their work is to be admired and commended. I just think you're kind of stomping on a lot of good people on here by applying such a derisive term to the medium chosen by many fine artists.

[John C]

With the advance of making parts of fsih, making fins, casting heads the fish becomes a model kin is essensce. Yea I mold a lot of parts of fish I send out the door to clients.

I would like to see a total real skinmount competition, where you use the real fins and reduild the fin itself, rebuild the inside of the mouth etc.

I was just thinking there is so much knowldge of real taxidermy thats being lost and this type of competition would bring back some skills in sculpting.

Maybe the rules could include photos of the getting the fish done along the way.

Pics if the different steps in sculpting the inside of the mouth the build up of the real fins.

Dont get me worng I enjoy molding a fin and then casting it and in most cases it add to the realistic looks of the fish but its getting away from taxidermy of sorts.

So before the old skills are totally lost maybe we should have a real fish mounting competition.

It may also bring some youngguns on line to show us old pharts new ideas.

I just think some great sknowledge maybe lost before to long.

Just an addition we might see some really really great fish mounts, I agree there are some great fish guys out there you mentioned them.

There are some that are great reproductionpeople too. I think I hit above average on both but I sure think real fish taxidermy is fading fast and this may just be an effort to keep it alive.

[Marc]

JohnC...are you speaking of.."restrictor plate" competitions???...LOL!

[Cole]

Perhaps the old way just isn't as good. You can spend 3 hours rebuilding striper fins, and 8 hours rebuilding a walleye head, but in the end your left with something that just doesn't look as good as molded and cast parts. Just because you are molding something doesn't mean it isn't taxidermy. No one screams "thats not taxidermy" when someone molds a septum or pallete of a whitetail. As far as competition is concerned, if you wish to compete using no molded parts, what's stopping you. Lots of knowlege about farming with horses has been lost since the invention of the tractor, but I really don't think it's knowlege missed.

[Jknuth]

I think it comes down to cliques
Repros against the Skins

My view is
Make the repro look like the real fish and make the skin mounts look like the real fish.

The old ways are not always the best ways. its a matter of individual strengths.
The about it takes some to skin out position and rebuild a pike head some of us can mold the pike head and cast it in the same amount of time.
I use repro heads on Most of my fish, even some panfish.
Why because its faster for me.
My background is in molding and casting so its easier for me and I am happy with the results. And more importantly my customers are happy.
and they carry the sweet green we all need to live.

As for the fight in the streets of the Reps vs Skins
Ill just watch the fight and stay in my own gang

[RDA]

If you really want an old fashioned comp,    then dont allow foam bodys either...No apoxei sculpt   texture molds  or any of that...   Forms bust be hand carved from wood  then sculpted with mache   and  HAND PAINTED WITH OILS  AND A BRUSH!!!

[Marc]

YEAH!! And you're disqualified if you put two eyes in too!!

[FishArt]

Now John, don't SUGARCOAT things - lol!

Josh, you're a very, very smart man...

[John C]

I think you young guns are missing the point here. I know of several old guys that just use Epoxie and dont cast parts that beat the crap out of plastic parts guys mounts.

I bet if you look around in the north states esp youwill find the samething.

Dont matter if you cast a part its how you use it. look at some of the stuff posted plastic parts but poor use of plastic part.

What I see is many young guns cant compete if they dont use cast parts!!

I can cast parts too and do, just I think a "Do it the hard way." would seperate  the cast a plast kids from the taxidermist that can do it both ways.

Just because its plastic dont make it better.

[Kerby Ross]

and then there are those left behind in the dark ages.... LOL

Kerby...

[BMW]

Another fun topic......So here goes.
I really appreciate the guys that can take a dried up old fish skin wrapped around a hunk of foam and make a fish out of it.  And with the same breath I am in awe of a guy that can take a white piece of plastic it into a fish.  But when it comes down to methods, a dead fish is still a dead fish.  (At least I think most reproductions are still being made from dead fish....)  I think the great reproduction and repro parts people realize this and often you can see it in the finished products.  As John says, "just because it's plastic doesn't make it better."  That's so true.  It's just another starting point.  The guys that take the repro parts and then rework them to add life and realism to them are the ones that really stand out.  And the same goes for the guys that use no cast parts.  That dried up skin still has got to be made to look alive.  But don't sell short Apoxie Sculpt.   And as Josh stated, it's just a matter of going with your strengths.  I don't think one way is better than the other.  There are certain things that I feel give me a better pallet to begin a project.   But when the dust settles, the guys that can read reference and utilize their knowledge and skills (whatever method they choose) still rise to the top.
But man what a treat it would be to see the awesome turn out for the "old fashioned" division!

[George Roof]

Actually, I don't know any of the really good taxidermists who don't use some artificial parts.  There's really not much way you'd ever get the mouth interior even close withoue epoxie putty.  In the old days, fish taxidermy was disposable art.  They seldom lasted over 5 or 6 years at best as the oil paints on the skin usually ended up making the mount a sticky mess in that time.  Back when I started you could bring in a 10 pound bass and expect it to weigh 12 pounds when you picked it up.  Most fish were filled with papier mache and sewn up.  Try sewing a fish sometime and see how you'd like to do that on all your work.  Then there was the file cards glued to the back side of the fins that always looked like crap. Someone decided that surgical cellophane tape would do a better job, but it really never did.  Cold water fish were always a mess.  The real heads filled with mache ended up making them look like some grotesque monster, the adipose fin had to be carved out of wood or it ended up looking like a freeze dried raisin, and the fin butts were always shrunken.

This post reminds me of Old Terry longing to wrap bodies for small animals.  I tried to tell him what the best he could hope for would be, but he insisted.  And what he ended up with might have been "competitive" in 1950, but 60 years later, it's an insult to what the industry is capable of.  No thanks, ain't goin' back.

[Jknuth]

Honestly what erks me is Repros getting slammed in a competition setting while skin mounts that use commercial forms and eyes get praise. based simply on the fact that the real skin is used.

Now again what about deer?
Commercial eyes, forms, septum's, ears, Antlers!.....

Some of us are doing all of the work ourselves. ALL of it, down to hand cast resin eyes.
I havent ordered from a taxidermy company in 4 years. all of it is made by me. and it does bother me at least with the Wisconsin show that as a repro fish. it will not be judged to the same standards of a skin mount and as is my understanding cant win best fish.
Granted the judges can tell if its a custom cast, but still. why must i even compete when I am competing against glorified model kits.

Now all of this is in referance to competition and not from a business sense.

the clinging I see to the older ways is noble but rather foolish in my view. Those who fail to embrace change also refuse advancement.
We need to study the earlier techniques but we need to make them better at the same time.
If you want to do a comp old school then skin one half of the fish and nail its skin to a barn board flat, since that is where this started anyway.
Hey even I have a catfish head that my grampa did when he was a kid. by did I mean lopped its head off buried it in salt and nailed it to a fence post.
Now thats oldschool.

As I have said before the closer we get to a swimming fish the better, no matter how we start it or how we finish it.

[Marc]

Very well said Josh and so true...clinging to the old ways would be foolish. I feel for an artist of your quality trying to make it up the ranks through a competition when your far ahead of anyone else competing as far as creating everything from scratch goes. Could it be they wouldn't know how to judge because they have yet to get there themselves?...LOL!