Can the a PH go below 1 & can that wreck the hide? PICS ADDED

[Jolt]

I am having some troubles I will explain exactly what was done. 

I had a whole deer hide that I was going to tan for a rug/wall hanging.  My brother in law gave it to me all folded up in a plastic bag & frozen.

 Used Stop Rot as it thawed
Roughly fleshed it
Salted, next day scraped & resalted & hung to dry - it was pretty humid so it didn't dry rock solid
1 week later I rehydrated in salt water & put in pickle.
It stayed in the pickle  (Safetee Acid)for roughly 2 months I would take it out and flesh a bit retest PH & Saline content - (it took me so long to flesh because I was using a scalpel)  I kept a PH of 1-2, and salt at the reccomended number (I think it was 40% or 45%?? I lost the directions!)  The first week I  stirred it, and checked the solution each day sometimes it would be up to a 3 and I would add more safetee acid to bring it back down.  Well, about a month into it my Salinometer smashed so I could no longer check the salt content.  I also got some Kemal 4 and added that it the pickle, I did need to keep adding more acid because the PH was 2 - 2.5.. ok finally finished fleshing, I put it in the pickle for one last night and I added more acid because the ph was up again ( to maybe 2.5) ( I think the Kemal 4 messes with the PH)  anyways I get home from work and figure I will neutralize it and then get it into the EZ Tan soluntion.  Well, there is hair everywhere!  clumps of it falling all over the place. I neutralized it anyways and put it in the tan for 48 hours.  I have just taken it out of the tan and it is draining - then I will oil it.  It looks horrible!!!!
I keep saying to myself I did not fail, I just learned what not to do..... but wait - WHAT was it???  Is it possible to have added too much acid??  Any thoughts would be helpful, I don't want this to happen again.   PLEASE tell me what I did wrong! Thanks so much

note* the PH was supposed to be 1.5-2... is 1 too low? My strips go from 1-12 is it possible for the PH to go below 1?

                                                    Jennifer

[cyclone]

 My brother in law gave it to me all folded up in a plastic bag & frozen.

- it was pretty humid so it didn't dry rock solid
1 week later I rehydrated in salt water & put in pickle.

  I also got some Kemal 4 and added that it the pickle, I did need to keep adding more acid because the PH was 2 - 2.5.. ok finally finished fleshing,

( I think the Kemal 4 messes with the PH)  anyways I get home from work and figure I will neutralize it and then get it into the EZ Tan solution.  Well, there is hair everywhere!  clumps of it falling all over the place. I neutralized it anyways and put it in the tan for 48 hours.  I have just taken it out of the tan and it is draining - then I will oil it.  It looks horrible!!!!
I keep saying to myself I did not fail, I just learned what not to do..... but wait - WHAT was it???  Is it possible to have added too much acid??  Any thoughts would be helpful, I don't want this to happen again.   PLEASE tell me what I did wrong! Thanks so much

note* the PH was supposed to be 1.5-2... is 1 too low? My strips go from 1-12 s it possible for the PH to go below 1[/color]?

                                                    Jennifer

Your process could have gone wrong with any of the steps highlighted with red...The most important being how the hide was handled, and what condition it was in before you received it..

You have to give more information as to:

1. How you re-hydrated, how long, what solution. 

2.   How the pickle was made..How much water, salt, safety acid...etc..

I've not used Kemal-4 before but from their website I see that it is acidic, should be compatible with your pickle although not needed for a deer skin.

Yes, it is possible to get to a pH below 1 although from your scenario I don't see how this would have damaged your hide...

There are too many variables to determine what went wrong..please give more info...

[Jolt]

Ok, I'm not sure when he froze it, I had thought it was immediately after skinning it.  He brought it to me withiin a few days.
I re hydrated with 5 gallons of water and 10 lbs of salt, and left it in there for 2-3 hours - thats all it took.
For my pickle I used 5 gallons of water,  5 pounds of salt & 5 tablespoons of safetee acid ( 2 tablespoons equals one ounce according to my cookbook.)  I used a rubbermade plastic tote to hold the pickle and another one for the tan.

[cyclone]

For a full deer hide I'd use more that 5 gal of pickle.  It doesn't seem like enough to fully cover the hide.  Perhaps it was bunched up too much and the pickle didn't cover it/didn't get into all the areas equally.  Did you weigh the hide down?

[Bruce Rittel]

I sold a similiar product to Kemel-4 that we called RD-601 (Relaxer/Washer/Degreaser) and yes, it was slightly acidic. However, like most tanning detergent types, it was still above a 4.0 pH, and less than 6.5 pH. That's considered on the acidic side of the pH scale, and can be called "acidic". However, it will influence your pickle pH.

That being said - I'd never recommend adding the RD-601 or any other detergent to your pickle, as it would definitely neutralize some of the acid and bring up your pH readings. It may also weaken the epidermis and cause the hair to loosen. The only additives I may make to a pickle would be Acid Bate, In the pickle Degreaser, or Bascal S - and still monitor and compensate for any flucuations in the pH.

[Bruce Rittel]

PS - To answer your original question about going too low on the pH - it shouldnt be a problem. When I mix my Saftee Acid pickle it usually is a 1.1 pH before I put in the skins or capes. Once they are added they raise the pH to about a 1.5. However, my local water reads a 6.8 pH. Other local waters may be a bit lower, so your readings will be lower than mine - but still safe to use. Too low a pH does not cause hair loss.

[fesekula]

Thank you for the answear Bruce Rittel. I always wondered if 1.0 was to low for a pickle and if it could damage the hair or epidermis.

[Bruce Rittel]

Is "fesekula" really John B? Where have you been - it's been such a long time! I sincerely hope all is well and it's great to see you on here! My best wishes!

[Jolt]

Thank you all so much or your replies, as I try to figure out where I went wrong.
Bruce, This is what it says on the bottle of Kemal-4 and why I thought it would be ok to use it. 

It says :
   - "Kemal-4 can be used in all soak solutions: helps prepare the skin to accept tanning; helps relax the skin for easier shaving; helps soften stiff skins such as African and grease burned skins, degreases by removing natural fats and oils, helps clean skin of dirt blood and smoke stains; is compatible with all tans liqua-tan salt, pickle baths, and degreasing bahs, will not cause hair slippage  Then on the directions it says "DIRECTIONS" SKIN PREP:USE once ounce of Kemal-$ to five gallon s of water in salt solutions, pickle solutions, and or tan solutions. It helps in a quicker and faster penetration."

It sounded good.  ?? 

Here is an update on the hide, and it does lead me to believe that perhaps my container was too small.  (18 gallon sized plastic tote). Anyways after oiling, sweating & hanging to dry. It's been hanging for 10 hours and is still wet, hair is falling out all over the place.  I figured well I'll just pull all the hair out and then I will at least have a nice piece of leather.  Well, I pulled out the hair from 1/4 of the hide, and pulling is really too strong of a word - it falls somewhere between brushing my hand against  & pulling- anyways it is a nice white skin, but there are faint purple blotches on it! It looks like a grape juice stain that someone tried to wash out.  Now, would that be safe to assume that the tan did not penetrate on those areas???  Or is it something else?  I left it in the tan for 48 hours, so maybe Cylclone is right and my container is too small?? I would greatly appreciate your feedback, and I will also post a picture.  Thanks so much

[Jolt]

Here are some pics.

[cyclone]

That would be slippage...That hide is also much too large for a 5 gal solution..

Grain it and make buckskin..

[Bruce Rittel]

When using EZ-100 - you know its had some metallic contact (usually iron) when you see pink to black discoloration on the flesh. Depending on the amount of exposure - it will first become pink - then purple - and finally if a lot - black colored. The skin is still mountable, but the stains are irreversible.

But in your case, they are only in spots and throughout the skin. Are they really purple or do they actually look raw? Like the flesh - but you can actually see the hair roots which may account for what you describe as "purple".

[Jolt]

hmm, well to my eye it looks exactly like grape juice stains... faded pinkish/purple.  I am just learning, my only experience is EZ 100 for a mink & squirrel and it worked great  -  I had no problems at all, I am sure it is "operator error" here on my part, I just need to know where I screwed up so I don't do it again! LOL  The only metal the hide came in contact with is a metal rack used for draining after I hauled it out of the solutions, it is I think an old refrigerator rack, but with some white coating so there is no exposed metal and no rust.  A hunting knife, & scalpel blades - I think those are both stainless.  I just don't have enough experience to know if it looks like raw spots.  It didn't start to lose hair until the last night in the pickle.  If it is raw spots will it still be ok to make buckskin out of it?

[javelinstorm]

you will probably have to pickle it again then tan it again after removing the hair

[oldshaver]

I agree with Cyclone, its just plain old fashion slip. It has nothing to do with the kemal-4, or the low ph.

I DONT agree with a Ph of 1 being ok though. A Ph this low, will cause hollow hair furs, such as deer, to curl on the tips, making for a rough looking mount. Just my opinion. Shoot for 2, and stay below 2.5, and all is good. Just my opinion.

I must say, I dont understand, the grease burn thing? A grease burn area is a total loss, and nothing is going to change that!