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Taxidermy.Net Forum  |  Buy, Sell and Trade  |  Buyers and Sellers (Moderator: Michael J Vaden)  |  Topic: HELP: Shipping Tails outside the US « previous next »
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Author Topic: HELP: Shipping Tails outside the US  (Read 3401 times)
lizardguts
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Location: eastern Iowa
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skull collector

« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2012, 03:14:41 AM »

"All animals going across any international border must go through usfw, us customs and usda you must have them inspected failure to do so is against the law."

It's all in Bob and Sivko's comments Hina, read them carefully. Trust me, as a small time or hobby seller it isn't worth all the money and headache to ship legally overseas. If you just toss a fox tail in a package and ship it that would be against the law and you could be fined thousands of dollars for it.
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Bob Wendt
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indiana, wyoming and kansas

« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2012, 05:33:31 AM »

another option is have a liscenced broker handle the sale for you.  but of course it still would be cost prohibitive , unless a pricey item.   or buy your own usfws liscence and keep the records and pay the inspection fees. choice # three is DON`T DO IT.  there is choice #4, do it, probably get by with it.  folks smuggle on heroin all the time and get away with it.  but realise heroin or wildlife smuggling, some get caught. then you face the music. a prudent person would not post on a public forum they have smuggled  wildlife in the past and got away with it, and plan on doing again.
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Eva
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Posts: 148

« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2012, 05:25:48 PM »

Anyone know the export law for shipping leather, like say a leather hand bag or somesuch?  I don't think it counts as wildlife if it's from a domestic cow/bull.   Doesn't seem like anyone is getting special permits to sell/ship a few purses out of country.  Should they be? 
-Eva
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naturesmirror
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Location: Australia
Posts: 130


« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2012, 09:08:35 PM »

Anyone know the export law for shipping leather, like say a leather hand bag or somesuch?  I don't think it counts as wildlife if it's from a domestic cow/bull.   Doesn't seem like anyone is getting special permits to sell/ship a few purses out of country.  Should they be? 
-Eva

 well thats what I was  kind of thinking,

I know there are plenty of souveniers sold here (eg deer antler products), stuff made form feathers, dream catchers made form leather and fur and feathers. Even full skins and skulls.

You don't have to declare them until your on the incoming side of the airport. 

But Im nto sure not with what Bob has said, I didin't realise I was doing the wrong thing and I am looking more carefully into it
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Bob Wendt
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indiana, wyoming and kansas

« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2012, 09:15:05 PM »

best thing to do is call usfws and ask them .  on the net here none of us are  usfws officers. 
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Eva
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Posts: 148

« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2012, 09:55:19 PM »

Gets confusing as I don't think fish and game deals with domestic animals, just wild animals.  I found some stuff from fish and game about incoming, but nothing on outgoing.  The tricky part is that even if fish and game says it's fine, it may not be fine if it falls under another jurisdiction like maybe USDA.  Except at USDA, I could not find anything for not edible, not GMO, and not alive type things.  You can spend hours talking to people on the phone and still come away with the wrong answers.  That is why I was hoping someone with experience would be able to narrow it down a bit.
-Eva 
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K. Nelson
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Location: Moncks Corner, SC
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formerly Mxgurl89/K.Harris

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« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2012, 11:06:14 AM »

This is why I only ship within the US. Any sort of animal part, I just assume is illegal to ship out of country, and be done with it. The hassle and expense to ship stuff overseas just isn't worth it.
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Eva
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Posts: 148

« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2012, 09:15:32 PM »

Sometimes I am just meticulous and sometimes I am interested in actual exact answers, assuming such things exist in government of course.  I am sure there are people out there that are experienced with the ins and outs of import/export of things like leather and other domestic animals products.  So I thought I'd ask.  If I don't find any of those people today, no big deal.  I am not telling people to go ahead and ship things all over.  I am just curious as to the exact law.  With internet commerce heading the way it is, this kind of thing will become more and more of an issue as time goes on. 
-Eva
   
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naturesmirror
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Location: Australia
Posts: 130


« Reply #23 on: June 19, 2012, 10:04:25 PM »

another option is have a liscenced broker handle the sale for you.  but of course it still would be cost prohibitive , unless a pricey item.   or buy your own usfws liscence and keep the records and pay the inspection fees. choice # three is DON`T DO IT.  there is choice #4, do it, probably get by with it.  folks smuggle on heroin all the time and get away with it.  but realise heroin or wildlife smuggling, some get caught. then you face the music. a prudent person would not post on a public forum they have smuggled  wildlife in the past and got away with it, and plan on doing again.

Ok so Im not doing this to be bitchy, or knarky, or anything like that,Im doing this to clear my name, as some people may think I am some form of wildlife smuggler.
After being on the phone to the Oregon Fish and Game, UFWS  in san fran, LA and portland.. and be given the run around, I have foudn out what I was doing was NOT illegal.

I was given two very different pieces of information form two different staff members at UFWS, but after calling and calling and going through all the different ports I have finally got myself a straight answer.

For the OP. If you are a TAXIDERMIST doing this for business, then yes, you need an import/export licence and it has to go through a designated port and be inspected by wildlife inspectors.

If you are NOT a taxidermist (which is me, I am not a registered taxidermist, although I practice it, and I have brought some pieces from a taxidermist), And as much as this doesn't make sense (yes, I asked them to double check), it has to go through a designated port- I have always left through LA, which is a designated port, have a customs declaration form (which you do at the airport).

However, for some strange reason, if the purpose of the  animals is for "house decorations or personal use", then it doesn't need to be inspected by cUstoms officers. dont ask me why, but i double.

This is true for anything that  is NON CITES, non migratory birds, and anything that doesn't have a hunting season. eg skunks, farm animals, domestic animals, racoons, nutria, ect

CITES animals, deer, migratory birds, elk, anything that has a specified hunting season. (Hunting, not Trapping- god knows why) has a whole completely different process.

as long as it is declared on the form, it is the incoming countries responsibility to deal with the inspections of the animals.

So in response to the OP, don't bother shipping your animals out, but also, don't assume everyone on here knows everything
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Michael J Vaden
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Location: Atlanta GA
Posts: 1256


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« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2012, 07:10:22 AM »

Natures miror you still have it wrong. It would really suck for you to get busted and not be able to go back home because you would bE waiting on a trial!!! If you are importing or exporting ANY WILDLIFE PRODUCT you MUST fill out a US Fish and Wildlife 3-177 import/export declaration period!!! Failure to do so is a felony punishable by up to $10,000 in fines and up to 10 years in prison.  Go to the forsale section and read the post pinned to the top of the page that ken and i put together. It is very illresponsable of you to come on here anonymously and give advice for legal issues you do not unddrstand that could land someone reading it in big big trouble. Hell jjst the legal feed to defend such a charge will cost you in the tens of thousands of dollars.

Michael Vaden
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naturesmirror
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Location: Australia
Posts: 130


« Reply #25 on: June 20, 2012, 10:19:01 AM »

alrighty, back to being on the phone for two hours to USFW.

I'm not purposefully giving people the wrong information, this is what I was told by numerous people in different departments of USFW. Maybe those people should get their act together and figure out what their own dam laws are, and get people the right information.


Mjvaden- I have previously filled out form 3-177- at the airport, when  i left the country the last time, so i still believe I haven't done anything wrong, but as you said, i don't want to get mixed up in any more of this sheit, so Im going back the the phone.

whoever wants more information, call them your dam self.
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Eva
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Posts: 148

« Reply #26 on: June 21, 2012, 01:36:51 AM »

Gets confusing.  Here is a link that suggests some domestic animal products are exempt from some paperwork:
"Certain domesticated animals are exempt provided they did not originally come from the wild."
http://www.fws.gov/le/ImpExp/CommWildlifeImportExport.htm

And from USFW about 3-177:
"It does not have to be filed in the case of wildlife products or manufactured articles that are not for sale and are imported as accompanying personal effects or as part of a household move, and fish caught by sport fishermen in North America unless such wildlife requiresthe prior issuance of a permit."
(that was on page 7 of here: http://library.fws.gov/Pubs9/wildlife_laws.pdf )

So it says on USFW website and it was said by multiple live humans at USFW.  Was it not said that one should call USFW to find out such things?  Thanx to Naturesmirror for putting in the effort to call and find out.  These exemptions are narrow and would not be useful to most taxidermists, but looks like they are legit.  Personally, my family has many times carried back pelts of domestic animals like goat from other countries.  At the time, I was wee and knew nothing, but we did make lots of calls, declare it at customs, etc.  Often, they would inspect them for hidden drugs, but never did we have problems, cuz the creatures were not endangered, no CITES needed, we only had one, and were not reselling.  I still have a nice huge tanned sheepskin rug from back in those days.  I think we paid $13.00 for it.   I had thought maybe laws had changed now or we had just gotten lucky but looks like not. 
-Eva
-Eva   
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Michael J Vaden
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Location: Atlanta GA
Posts: 1256


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« Reply #27 on: June 21, 2012, 05:53:53 PM »

Wow this is the Kind of childish crap that has chased MOST ALL OF THE GOOD TAXIDERMIST off this site!

You try to step up to the plate and help a newbie with a problem that could  potentially get them prison time and financially ruin them for quite some time if not their life... and all you get is Idiots trying to interpert the law in the loosest way possible that works for them.. News flash folks it DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY. I don't care what some federal Secretary told you over the phone...You screw up and the feds WILL drop the hammer on you and they DO not care what some one told you!!

Then you have the problam of these (i am assuming Kids) mudding the waters to totally confusee things...

If you ready the fed Web site it explanes it pretty well. but let me post one last time in an attempt to keep some one out of prison!!


Quote
Gets confusing.  Here is a link that suggests some domestic animal products are exempt from some paperwork:
"Certain domesticated animals are exempt provided they did not originally come from the wild."
http://www.fws.gov/le/ImpExp/CommWildlifeImportExport.htm


First a FOX TAIL IS WILDLIFE! Period exclamation point! it is not considered "domestic" by any Federal authority and never will !!!

if you click on the link this is what you get and I will break it down it is not rocket science.....




Importing and Exporting Your
 Commercial Wildlife Shipment

How do I import or export my commercial wildlife shipment?
 Generally, you must import or export your shipment through one of our designated ports , declare your shipment to us on a special form the 3-177 , and receive clearance from us for your shipment.have the inspectors at the port inspect it

In most cases, you must be licensed with us and pay user fees for each shipment if you are a taxidermist they will require you to have an import export permit $100 good for one year

What is wildlife?
 Wildlife is any living or dead wild animal, its parts, and products made from it. Wildlife not only includes mammals, birds, reptiles, amphibians, and fish, but also invertebrates such as insects, crustaceans, arthropods, molluscs and coelenterates.Yes this includes fox and their parts

What about animals that are captive-born or bred, or hatched in captivity?
 These animals and their parts, products, eggs, and offspring are also wildlife.[/size] Yes this means FARM or ranch raise FOX

How do you define import?
 Any wildlife introduced or brought into, or landed on, any place under U.S. jurisdiction is an import.

How do you define export?
 Any wildlife that departs, is sent, or shipped from, is carried out of, or is consigned to a carrier from a place under U.S. jurisdiction with a destination outside of the United States is an export.carried out of ie.  like getting on a plane

Does U.S. Customs and Border Protection use the same definitions?
 No. Our rules apply to some shipments that Customs does not consider imports or exports.

What if my shipment is in transit through the United States?
 Shipments that are in transit through the United States and remain under Customs bond do not have to be declared to us. Your in-transit shipment, however, must comply with foreign wildlife laws, and live wildlife must be transported humanely.

Be aware that shipments of certain species (such as those listed as endangered and threatened species , migratory birds , marine mammals, or injurious species ) may not transit the United States.

Is my shipment an import or export if it is placed in a customs bonded warehouse or free trade zone?
 Yes. Such shipments would be imports or exports, even though U.S. Customs and Border Protection does not regulate them as such. You and your shipment must meet wildlife requirements.

Are any wildlife species exempt from these requirements?
 Certain shellfish and dead fish products that are to be eaten by humans or animals may be exempt if they do not require a permit under 50 CFR 17 ( endangered and threatened species ) or 50 CFR 23 ( species listed under CITES the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species).

Certain domesticated animals are exempt provided they did not originally come from the wild. Cows domestic sheep domestic pigs By the way domestic dogs and cats are illegal too thanks you Bill freaken Clinton!!

What is a designated port?
 We have designated certain ports for importing and exporting wildlife to consolidate shipments at specific locations and provide more efficient service. You may import or export your shipment through any of the following ports: Anchorage, Atlanta, Baltimore, Boston, Chicago, Dallas, Honolulu, Houston, Los Angeles, Louisville, Memphis, Miami, New Orleans, New York, Newark, Portland, San Francisco, and Seattle.

Do I have to use a designated port for all shipments?
 No. You can import or export certain shipments at authorized border ports or special ports. requires more red tape

When may I use a border port?
 You may import or export your shipment at an authorized border port only if the wildlife itself originally comes from the United States, Canada , or Mexico and your shipment is being sent from and going to one of these countries.

You may not use a border port for wildlife that originates outside of North America or for species that require a permit under 50 CFR 16, 17, 18, 21, or 23. (These regulations deal with injurious species , endangered and threatened species , bald and golden eagles , migratory birds , marine mammals and CITES species .)

When may I use a special port?
Special ports are located in Alaska, Puerto Rico, and Guam. You may use special ports to import wildlife into these places as a final destination.

You may export wildlife that originates in Alaska, Puerto Rico, or Guam from a special port in that specific state or territory. Exports of wildlife that originates in the U.S. Virgin Islands may only use the special port of Guam. You may not use special ports for wildlife that requires a permit under 50 CFR 16, 17, 18, 21, or 23 (These regulations deal with injurious species , endangered and threatened species , bald and golden eagles , migratory birds , marine mammals and CITES species .)

May I use any other ports?
 Under very limited circumstances, you may be authorized under permit to use a port that does not normally handle wildlife trade. You must show that using one of our authorized ports would result in substantial deterioration or loss of the wildlife, or would cause an undue economic hardship. Final approval to use a non-authorized port depends on the availability of inspection services. will NEVER BE APPROVED FOR a taxidermist or taxidermy item

When do I declare my shipment for import?
 You must file a Declaration for Importation or Exportation of Fish or Wildlife (Form 3-177) with us at an authorized port of entry and receive clearance from us before U.S. Customs releases your shipment.

When do I declare my shipment for export?
 You must file Form 3-177 with us at an authorized port and receive clearance from us before your shipment is containerized or physically loaded on a vehicle, aircraft, or vessel, unless authorized otherwise by us.Don't do this your are at risk of a felony, prison and financial devastation

Are there any exceptions to the declaration requirement?
 Yes. There are two exceptions.

Live oysters, clams, mussels, and scallops, and their eggs, larvae, or juvenile forms that are exported for propagation or research related to propagation are exempt from declaration requirements, provided they do not require a permit under 50 CFR 17 (endangered and threatened species) or 23 (CITES-protected species).

You do not have to declare exports of live farm-raised fish eggs or live farm-raised fish unless they require a permit under 50 CFR 17 or 23.Yes folks neither of these are "FOX TAILS"

Do I need a license to import or export wildlife?

 Yes. Generally anyone engaging in business as an importer or exporter of wildlife must obtain a license from us. for personal use you do not need one but if the feds decide you look like commercial to them they will make you get one

Do I have to pay fees to import or export wildlife?
 Yes. You must pay user fees for each shipment imported or exported once you are licensed by us. These fees differ based on the type of port you use. usually will run $100 to $500

Are there other wildlife laws I need to know about?
 Yes. Many federal laws that protect wildlife have import/export requirements. These laws include the Lacey Act, Endangered Species Act, Migratory Bird Treaty Act, Eagle Protection Act, Marine Mammal Protection Act, African Elephant Conservation Act, Rhinoceros and Tiger Conservation Act, and Wild Bird Conservation Act. do your home work or they WILL charge you

You must also ensure that your wildlife shipment complies with state and foreign wildlife laws. If you break a foreign law the Feds can charge you with a "lacy Act" felony charge google "lacy act and Gibson guitar" and have fun reading

Are there any other agencies I need to contact?
 Yes. Other federal agencies involved with the import and export of wildlife may have additional requirements. These agencies include U.S. Customs and Border Protection ; the Department of Agricultures Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service ; the U.S. Public Health Service ; the U.S. Food and Drug Administration ; and the National Marine Fisheries Service .

You should also contact your state fish and wildlife agency about any state requirements or restrictions.
 
Quote
And from USFW about 3-177:
"It does not have to be filed in the case of wildlife products or manufactured articles that are not for sale and are imported as accompanying personal effects or as part of a household move, and fish caught by sport fishermen in North America unless such wildlife requiresthe prior issuance of a permit."
(that was on page 7 of here: http://library.fws.gov/Pubs9/wildlife_laws.pdf )

They are referring to not having to file a 3-177 to declare your "nikie" or leather thong" or wallet. but try to leave with you fur coat and look out!!!

Quote
Personally, my family has many times carried back pelts of domestic animals like goat from other countries.  At the time, I was wee and knew nothing, but we did make lots of calls, declare it at customs, etc.  Often, they would inspect them for hidden drugs, but never did we have problems, cuz the creatures were not endangered, no CITES needed, we only had one, and were not reselling.  I still have a nice huge tanned sheepskin rug from back in those days

Carry all the domestic sheep back you want but a deer ,"fox tail" or and other wildlife you better watch out!!! incidentally if you come through customs with wildlife and they let you through with out fish and wildlife they can still charge you It is YOUR RESPONDSABILITY. I came through from Mexico this year and Customs would not take any Fish and Wildlife paper work from me and let me leave with it. I had to call Fish and Wildlife on Monday and over night all the paper work to them to make my import legal.

Quote
alrighty, back to being on the phone for two hours to USFW.

I'm not purposefully giving people the wrong information, this is what I was told by numerous people in different departments of USFW. Maybe those people should get their act together and figure out what their own dam laws are, and get people the right information

You are most likely talking to the wrong people Call the designated port you plan on using and talk to the Fish and Wildlife Inspector personally. These are the people that will be initially enforcing the law on you. Make contact with a inspector and see if they will converse Via email his way you have it in writing.


In the end this is some serious Crap and is not worth the trouble you will have to go through or the trouble you can get into for some silly fox tails. if you get busted weather you are right or wrong plan on spending $10,000 to $25,000 in attorneys fees to defend your self.
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Eva
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« Reply #28 on: June 21, 2012, 07:20:21 PM »

Most of the stuff you just quoted was for commercial wildlife.  Note that NONcommercial law is different.  We are talking about noncommercial at this point.  You are correct when it comes to commercial.  Licensed taxidermiests are by law all commercial, so most of you could not go by the noncommercial exemptions no matter what.  Kinda sucks really, but I guess they assume if you buy and sell wildlife for a living, then any wildlife you have is likely commercial.  Please note that this 'interpretation' was made by various people at USFW, the very people we were instructed to call to find out the law and also those that are the most likely to know the actual law.
-Eva
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Michael J Vaden
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Location: Atlanta GA
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« Reply #29 on: June 21, 2012, 08:42:22 PM »

Quote
Most of the stuff you just quoted was for commercial wildlife.  Note that NONcommercial law is different.  We are talking about noncommercial at this point.  You are correct when it comes to commercial.  Licensed taxidermiests are by law all commercial, so most of you could not go by the noncommercial exemptions no matter what.  Kinda sucks really, but I guess they assume if you buy and sell wildlife for a living, then any wildlife you have is likely commercial.  Please note that this 'interpretation' was made by various people at USFW, the very people we were instructed to call to find out the law and also those that are the most likely to know the actual law.
-Eva

This exactly the type of Sheiot that I was talking about!!!!

Someone comes on here looking for Help..... Yes ready the title of the post...

Helpverb (used with object)
1. to give or provide what is necessary to accomplish a task or satisfy a need; contribute strength or means to; render assistance to; cooperate effectively with; aid; assist: He planned to help me with my work. Let me help you with those packages.
2. to save; rescue; succor: Help me, I'm falling!
3. to make easier or less difficult; contribute to; facilitate: The exercise of restraint is certain to help the achievement of peace.
4. to be useful or profitable to: Her quick mind helped her career.
5. to refrain from; avoid (usually preceded by can  or cannot ): He can't help doing it.

In coming here you would think that a person looking for "HELP" would be looking for an expert



Ex.pertnoun
1. a person who has special skill or knowledge in some particular field; specialist; authority: a language expert.
2. Military . a. the highest rating in rifle marksmanship, above that of marksman and sharpshooter.
b. a person who has achieved such a rating.
adjective
3. possessing special skill or knowledge; trained by practice; skillful or skilled (often followed by in  or at ): an expert driver; to be expert at driving a car.
4. pertaining to, coming from, or characteristic of an expert: expert work; expert advice.
 
Well you found one..... (ask around if you can still find any one else still left on here that has not been chase off my all the idiots..)

Only to be challenged by if i can borrow a term from George Roof a "mental midgit"With NO EXPERCIANCE that is now the expert and knows more then you do.

I can tell you I have been importing wildlife for I can almost guarantee longer then you have been alive!!Hundreds of shipments and thousands of specimens. this is not my first rodeo.

How may shipment have you imported???? How about how  many shipments have you exported???? aaahhhh NONE well legally at least

Quote
Most of the stuff you just quoted was for commercial wildlife.  Note that NONcommercial law is different.  We are talking about noncommercial at this point.

I can tell you for a fact the ONLY DIFFERANCE BETWEEN "commercial wildlife regulations" and "non commercial wildlife regulations" is if you are commercial they soak you for a $100 Import export licence, they soak you for a $100 to $250 inspection fee and on your 3-177 import export declaration you have to write a "T" code for commercial instead of a "P" for personal in the "Purpose"box.

Quote
Please note that this 'interpretation' was made by various people at USFW, the very people we were instructed to call to find out the law and also those that are the most likely to know the actual law.
LOL these People are not going to testify for you in court when you get your ass burnt!!! Fish and Wildlife does not Care what some one told you "that is considered Hear say they will only Go by the Law and they expect you to know it . if you don't you will  just  become another victim of the Feds...

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