JRTS Thoughts

[Glen Conley]

From my readings, Yes, proteins being left behind, are a necessity, to help preserve the longevity of the skin, and protect it from environmental influences.(red rot) This is the main reason you shouldn't pickle with sulphuric, or any other HOT acids. They remove all these proteins, and leave the skin vulnerable.

Oldshaver, we are going to have to start watching our language.  There are going to be people reading this that are at entry level, and if we are too vague, we might do more harm than good and create additional confusion.

I'll see if I can't sort out a photo or two to help clarify statements.  How about you add red rot to our glossary?

[Glen Conley]

The last time I got involved with one of these discussion threads, it sent me off on another tangent, and I never got back to the thread.  I'll bring that thread back up also with an addition or two.

Sometimes we just flat overlook the obvious.  Working with cells can be a little tough because of their small size..........right?

I'm such a dumba$$.  A chicken egg IS A cell!  Geeze!  Don't laugh, you jokers didn't think to experiment with one either.

The proteins in eggs, and the proteins that make up the collagen fibers that we make leather out of DO NOT have a whole lot in common.  There are only very trace amounts of the proteins found in the fibers that are found in the egg.  If I remember right, only two out of the three.

Daniel, here's where you start playing hands on and eyes on, you and anyone else that wants to go along.

I took an egg that according to the date stamped on the carton expired two days ago.  Broke it open, which will leave the cell membrane attached to the shell, and emptied the cell contents into a bowl.  I then added a roughly equal amount of STOP-ROT and whipped it with a fork.

What's going to happen?

I have no idea.

I've often questioned if anything could be done with the drainages that come off a STOP-ROT treated cape...................bear in mind, the fluids in between the collagen fibers will again only share part of the chemistry with the egg, but at least this will give some kind of starting point.

Post up your egg/tanning experiment photos!

[oldshaver]

Certain tannins require processing that produces leathers that are particularly susceptible to attack by a destructive chemical decay known as red rot. Red rot is a deterioration of leather that produces a red, powdery surface (Canadian Conservation Institute 1992). Red rot occurs when the tannin reacts with sulfuric acid. Leather objects affected by red rot will go through a variety of stages. Vegetable tanned leather made between 1850 to 1900 is particularly susceptible to this reaction. Museums with large shoe collections and libraries with books dating from this period will attest to this (Haines 1991c). This is due in part to the removal of what are called non-tans while manufacturing leather during this time period. Non-tans are protective enzymes usually found in animal skins. When the animal is alive, non-tans help to protect the animal's skin from environmental influences as well as to increase its durability (Plenderleith 1970). According to Haines (1991c), before 1850 organic acids were used during the hair removal process. Because these acids are not as active as mineral acids, they did not remove all of the calcium salts (non-tans) in the leather. After 1850, however, liquid sulfuric acid, a more active mineral acid, was used and it removed all of the calcium salts. Use of sulfuric acid produced the more uniform finish desired by leather manufacturers. Although the calcium salts contribute nothing to the processing of leather, they did offer protection against the ill effects of contact with sulfuric acid in a gaseous form (Waterer 1971). With the complete removal of the non-tans, these leathers are much more susceptible to red rot. Unfortunately, there is no cure for leather objects affected by red rot (Graham-Bell 1986; Guldbeck 1969). All that can be done is to try to preserve the object in as good a condition as possible for as long as it will last. Leather objects dating before 1886, when chrome tanning, a type of mineral tanning, was perfected, were probably processed using a vegetable tanning method (Color Plus 1997).

Keep in mind, this information is coming from a conference of museum curators. I will have to find the protein connection, after I sort through a couple of dozen readings. This one, refers to calcium salts, being a protective measure.

I am not a tanning chemist, and never will be. The average Joe,  should be able to keep up, with a little reading, and a little studying, if there is a genuine interest.

[War Eagle Taxidermy]

This is a great thread makes good reading thanks to all for posting in it I'm trying to learn all i can about tanning in the shop.
Order some JRTS to try.
Thanks Bennie

[Glen Conley]

I am not a tanning chemist, and never will be.

Ppfffffbbbbbttttttt!

Would that be anything like telling a taxidermist that never went to a taxidermy school that he isn't a taxidermist?  How about a professional artist that never got a degree saying that he was an artist?  Or the auto mechanic that never went through factory sponsored schooling that just fixes things?  Now, what is it you have been doing for a living for a number of years?

If we were in the same room together and you had made that same remark, I would have been giving you a bunch of those funny sideways looks in rapid succession.

How about I talk you into coming up with some more of those simplified definitions for the glossary?

Hydrophobic proteins, and WHY are they hydrophobic?

Hydrophilic proteins, and WHY are they hydophilic?

We had better add astringent to the list also.  If possible WHY that works.

[DSalters]

Christmas projects and get-togethers put a delay on things for me and others perhaps...I am back.

Glen, you mention having no clue what will occur with the egg...how is it looking now?

[Glen Conley]

Glen, you mention having no clue what will occur with the egg...how is it looking now?

Daniel, notice it was Monday afternoon when I set the egg up.  Notice this is Thursday morning.  Notice the photo of the egg, and the angle the bowl is being held at.

When I set this up, I thought I should have used a clear plastic Solo cup.  I was expecting everything to stratify (opinion #1).

I was also expecting it to stay in a liquid state for a good number of days (opinion #2).

The suspension remained the same.  It started a rapid drying yesterday afternoon, looking like as if it had been catalyzed.  You can see the amount of water loss, the original depth was where you see the lighter yellow ring on the bowl.

At this point, one thing we can establish, OPINIONS can be as worthless as teats on a boar.

[oldshaver]

Glen, will get back to ya Fri, or Sat.  Busy,Busy.

[oldshaver]

Here it is Glen.
Hydrophile
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(Redirected from Hydrophilic)
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Hydrophile, from the Greek (hydros) "water" and φιλια (philia) "friendship," refers to a physical property of a molecule that can transiently bond with water (H2O) through hydrogen bonding. This is thermodynamically favorable(thats why I  heat tans and pickles), and makes these molecules soluble not only in water, but also in other polar solvents. There are hydrophilic and hydrophobic parts of the cell membrane.

A hydrophilic molecule or portion of a molecule is one that is typically charge-polarized and capable of hydrogen bonding, enabling it to dissolve more readily in water than in oil or other hydrophobic solvents. Hydrophilic and hydrophobic molecules are also known as polar molecules and nonpolar molecules, respectively. Some hydrophilic substances don't dissolve. This type of mixture is called a colloid. Soap has a hydrophilic head and a hydrophobic tail, which Hydrophile

To make a long story short, Glen, what you are saying, is that paint on tans such as JRTS are hydrophobic, and the tans I use are hydrophilic?

In your opinion, are each of these, equally capable of long term skin preservation?

Is the Hydrophilic hydrogen bond stronger? You tell me? I guess we need to heat some water?

[Glen Conley]

I thought you said you weren't a leather chemist.

You're doing good.  You know what I like about the definitions you are coming up with?  They are just like I remember.

The tanning category usually doesn't get this much excitement.  Can you come up with a definitive definition for hydrophobic with the definition aimed at proteins?

Here it is Glen.
Hydrophile
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from Hydrophilic)
Jump to: navigation, search
Hydrophile, from the Greek (hydros) "water" and φιλια (philia) "friendship," refers to a physical property of a molecule that can transiently bond with water (H2O) through hydrogen bonding. This is thermodynamically favorable(thats why I  heat tans and pickles), and makes these molecules soluble not only in water, but also in other polar solvents. There are hydrophilic and hydrophobic parts of the cell membrane.

A hydrophilic molecule or portion of a molecule is one that is typically charge-polarized and capable of hydrogen bonding, enabling it to dissolve more readily in water than in oil or other hydrophobic solvents. Hydrophilic and hydrophobic molecules are also known as polar molecules and nonpolar molecules, respectively. Some hydrophilic substances don't dissolve. This type of mixture is called a colloid. Soap has a hydrophilic head and a hydrophobic tail, which Hydrophile

To make a long story short Quit that!  You're sounding like a gasoline a$$, Glen, what you are saying, is that paint on tans such as JRTS are hydrophobic, and the tans I use are hydrophilic?  I'm not saying nothing, I'm just trying to get basic facts assembled in a single thread so that a person would be better capable of making their own judgement calls.



In your opinion, are each of these, equally capable of long term skin preservation?  You already saw what my OPINION was worth with the statements that I made regarding the egg experiment.  Opinions and experience are two different animals.

Is the Hydrophilic hydrogen bond stronger? You tell me? I guess we need to heat some water?
We're working on establishing some base lines.  Heated water is an excellent addition for purposes of illustration.

[oldshaver]

Glen, I dont like what I am reading, after more research. Boy, we could save alot of money on our water bill! You take it from here. Im still trippin. My hat is off to ya!

[DSalters]

It is tempting to start a new thread since the topics and directions of this thread look like the pictures of collagen fibers Glen posts in these forums but this way, everything will be kept in the same place for a future resource.

I haven't posted in here for a bit because my mind has been trying to process and apply everything that's been said so far.  Here's where I am:

If a tan is more effectively thorough when the skin is more acidic than it was when green yet more basic than when in a strong pickle (since neutralizing must be done to bring the pH "up"), then I reason that a pre-tan (whether a product like Knobloch's Pre-Tan #110 or a mild acid/brine soak) would cause a skin to tan more thoroughly than trying to tan a green hide.  I know all tans have slightly different properties regarding their pH and how they are most effective.  Is any of my reasoning in this paragraph flawed?

If the above is on target, why is a hide supposed to pickle for three days (ex. 1/2 oz. safetee acid, 1 lb. salt, 1 gal. water)?  However, a pre-tanning solution (Pre-Tan #110 or mild acid/brine soak) is to be used for far less time.

[DSalters]

Also, Glen, I know there are some things you do not want to say on here because of possible interpretations, if that is the case, I understand.  I've learned a lot from threads like this one.  There are so many cliches in tanning lingo that get tossed around without any second thought (even by some of the manufacturers).  I am trying to solve the "why"s.

[Glen Conley]

Same egg, three months later.

[oldshaver]

Where the heck have you been?(as far as the tanning forum is concerned)

Is there a smell to that egg? Still looks like it is ready to scramble, but I aint eatin it!LOL