NOT A DEBATE ? just need help

Submitted by John on 03/20/2004 at 17:44. ( ) 12.150.137.197

One of our local taxidermist DP's everything he mounts. He fleshes with a knife and beam, DP's, and mounts. There is a lot of difference between a southern WT cape and a colorado bull elk. He has also done buffalo, bear, and boar this way. Can the DP penetrate these thicker hides (without thinning/shaving) enough to prevent problems a few years down the road? Also, if you have an elk cape that has been fleshed and salted hard. When rehydrated and pickeled, will a wire wheel get it thin enough to allow the use of liqua tan. I know a professional tannery would do a better job, but I was just wondering.

John

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Two questions, John?

This response submitted by George on 03/20/2004 at 17:53. ( georoof@aol.com ) 64.12.116.206

To answer your first question, I'll ask YOU a question. IF you salt an elk hide, does the salt penetrate all the way through the hide? Well, DP works very similarly and will likely be just as effective. Having said that, however, I can't assure you there won't be any problems down the line (as I can't about a tanned hide). IF a good glue is used and the hide is thinned properly, then it stands a good chance of lasting as long as the tanned one. I don't particularly like the results and I think I can tell the difference, but that's personal. There's lots of things being used out there (spray tans, paint ons, alum pickles) that some people swear by while others swear at. So I guess it's personal preference.

NOW, your second question. In my opinion, NO - NEVER!


Thanks George

This response submitted by John on 03/20/2004 at 18:24. ( ) 12.150.137.197

Salt analogy makes sense. Never for liqua tan is kinda disappointing.

Thanks, for taking the time to answer.

John


hummmm

This response submitted by wilson on 03/20/2004 at 20:01. ( ) 198.81.26.104

When using DP powder on a hide, does it create moisture [like salt] to allow the DP to soak in, if so, Does it drip all over the floor. If not, how does it penetrate the hide?


Wilson

This response submitted by George on 03/20/2004 at 22:19. ( georoof@aol.com ) 64.12.116.206

If you have a wet sponge and put salt on it, what happens? Nothing, you just have a salt water filled sponge. DP works by similar action. The alum astringent acts to remove the water in gaseous form while the talcum powder dries it up. Borax is just along for the ride. You seldom get dermistid damage to a DP hide simply because that borax HAS infiltrated the hide. That's why I shy away from any of the alum tans, however. DP can be washed out and the water will reabsorb into the cape to make it almost green again. Alum tans can be washed out the same way.


ok

This response submitted by wilson on 03/20/2004 at 23:58. ( ) 198.81.26.104

This is how i see it,

alum ,borax and talc= dp

alum, salt =alum tan

alum ,sodiun carbonate and salt =auto tanner tan

Acetic Acid, Acid Bate, Alum, Aluminum Chloride, Aluminum Sulfate, Ammonium Alum, Bactericide, Citric Acid, Denatured Alcohol, Formic Acid, Gelon, Krow Oil, Pickle Oil, Pre Tan 110, Sodium Chloride, Sodium Sulfate, Tanning Agent, Vinegar.=kwotan

i understand lutan is an alum tan also ; does anyone no how to make IT?


Acid, Acid, Acid

This response submitted by Tenbears on 03/21/2004 at 02:00. ( ) 205.188.208.102

Has it slipped everyone's grasp that all tans are acid. "TAN THAT HIDE" Tan The word itself in reference to preserving hides came from the use of Tannic acid. Brain Tan works because the enzymes in the brain when combined with other compounds become acid. Borax = boric acid. Borax goes into solution easily. I have seen people on here say that borax simply dries the hide. I say bull. It preserves. If you doubt this. take some raw meat. Slice it the thickness of a hide mix in borax, or DP. place it in a jar and set it in your basement. Do the same with raw meat In a short tome the meat will spoil, and even burst the jar. wile the borax treated meat will not even smell. Yes, borax can be washed out. But try that little feet after the hide has been dry for a year. I have and will contend that many of the so called brush on tan, spray on tan. smear on tans, are no better than DP. Their manufactures have delivered a great campaign to sell the consumer a bill of goods. why? Because they want to sell their product. everyone wants to jump on the latest and greatest. If I use a better product, I am therefore a better taxidermist. Hey, I am not faulting anyone. I am just as guilty as others in this. I have seen tanned hide fall apart. I have seen them crack, as well as dped hides. I have seen a deer mount that is over 10 years old looks great, and is simply a raw hide that was not even DPed. We all stand behind what we do as the best. if we did not believe that we would find something else. The point is if you are skilled. And familiar with the method you use. you can to top notch work


Tenbears

This response submitted by George on 03/21/2004 at 09:10. ( ) 152.163.252.194

Sometimes I'm sure one of your posting's as good as you can get, and you keep surprising me. That posting is going on my cheat sheet to recommend to beginners when they ask that question. Super job.


MOst tans I know of tan a a pH of 4 to 5.

This response submitted by John C on 03/21/2004 at 11:49. ( ) 66.233.157.155

Here is what I have looked at and recorded over the years.

Hang sever freshly mounted DPed head on the same spot to dry. you will see crap seep out of them. Wonder what that stuff is?

Now I see people run Alum tans down saying the revert ot sulphuric acid. The pH is still in the 4-5 range.

Lutan-F is aluminum Chloride, it also tans at the 4-5pH

Pretty much the same range with ALL TANNING CHEMICALS.

When older first quality mounts were tanned with Aluminum Sulphate over 100 years ago and are still hanging around. That pretty much says enough for me to believe this A/S tan is good enough for me.

A bit of research on anyone part testing the pH of the many tans will show the same results of 4-5 pH.


John, apples and oranges

This response submitted by George on 03/21/2004 at 13:52. ( ) 152.163.252.194

You need to come visit me and I'll take you to the Smithsonian and show you some of those 100 year old mounts. Thankfully, they're finally being replaced.

Ideally, all leather should be back to 7 pH I would think and without any extra baggage aboard. And I didn't just START badmouthing alum tans. I've done that consistently since the early 1970's. It's just that a "new" product getting major advertising is reinventing that wheel. Sorry, but for the "Wagner's" of this world, thats a PERSONAL OPINION. You're all welcome to discovering your own favorites.


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