Obviously most "experts" feel the use of hide paste is essential. So be it. In some cases maybe it is. For example if you use DP or a drier hide. The way I do mine it is not necessary. George, why do you imply that I am offended by your assertion that paste is necessary? I'm not at all offended. And for what it's worth, I have plenty of trophies in my game/display room that I am proud of. None of which was done with hide paste. Chris, I agree with you that competition is not my thing. What gave you the impression it is? And I have plenty of repeat business from "average" customers who would not notice extremely minor details that a pro taxi would. Doug, I am amused at your arrogance that your way is the best way. In any case, my whole purpose in answering the original question was to point out that there may be more then one technique to get good results. Many of you are too narrow minded to realize this. That's OK. You do it your way, I'll do it mine.
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I'm sure there are lots of people who do taxidermy who feel just as you do. HOWEVER, as this is a BEGINNER'S category, I want it defined unequivocably that to omit using hide paste is just the first step on a long slippery slope of shoddiness and poor worksmanship.
"Competitions" suddenly are taking a hit and that's just about as dumb as implying that you can get details on a mount without someTHING holding the skin to the form. Where do you think all these advanced and detailed forms have COME FROM? Competitions. This entire industry relys on some taxidermist pushing the envelope just a little farther in a competition. The first open mouthed, pedestal deer won competitions easily. Today, you'll be hard pressed to find a closed mouth deer on a wall mount taking any award. The standard is just too high.
So what do you do when your "average" customer comes in and says he wants and open mouth, pedestal deer done? Aside from not using glue, that is? And again, I don't have "average" customers. My customers get treated as my friends, which they are. They allow me to continue to be a taxidermist by paying me a decent wage. My enemies take their work down the street.
Now, just for giggles: How much do you charge your "average" customers for a standard shoulder mount whitetail?
"And I have plenty of repeat business from "average" customers who would not notice extremely minor details that a pro taxi would"
It seems like you're settling for what you think is "good enough". The people that come on this site come on here to learn better ways to do things. Even you admit that your deer are not good enough for competition because they don't have the "detail". But you don't want to learn anything new. You've already decided that your way is "good enough", and there's no point in making your work better. Order a GOOD hidepaste (Buckeye Supreme, Epo-Grip (I love the water-base by the way), and see how much better your mounts come out. Maybe you'll like it. Maybe you'll decide your customers deserve better than "good enough". The better class of work you do, the better class of customers you get.
Ignorance is curable but stupidity goes on forever. "My way" has been compiled from many years of learning the methods and materials of the most successful taxidermists in the world. Call it arrogance if it elevates you opinion of your not using hide paste. It's really called confidence. Any full time pro who turns out top quality work uses hide paste. Period. To recommend not using it to a beginner is exceptionally bad advice. I find it hard to believe the necessity of it's use is even being questioned! Damn right I'm "narrow minded" when it comes to using hide paste. I'm "narrow minded" on preserving the skin before mounting too. Go ahead and produce your standard mount without hide paste, but PULLLEASE don't recommend it to beginners.
Do you tan or do you use DP. Why dont you just skip this step and save a little more money. Your customers wont know if you tanned or DP
or not. More money in your pocket.
Now move on.. 99% of us use hide paste and you don't. If that's what you do and are happy with the results then it's time to drop it. You're never going to talk us out of not using it, and for a buck or two a deer it's well worth it to me and to my customers. We could analyze this all night and we're going to end up where we started, use hidepaste!
Greg, not using hide paste if fine for yourself, simply put you cannot do a great or even good job without it.
Bird taxidermist have even discovered that using caulk for hide paste helps each skin stay where it is supposed to.
Every beginner started WITHOUT HIDE PASTE.
Every PROFFESIONAL HAS CHANGED TO USING HIDE PASTE IN ONE FORM OR THE OTHER.
FOr your own junk dont use it but you will never win a high placing ribbon without it.
The ribbon represents the quality of your work.
Entering a show and winning is a way to find out how good you are or are not.
Its not debatable either, even fish make better mounts with hide paste.
I use hidepaste, but I cannot help but think it is over-rated. I have tried a bunch of them, and have yet to find a glue that I feel really sticks to an oily skin that was professionally tanned. In theory, a skin shrinks so much that it will suck down tight to a mannikin regardless. And I think even with paste, unless you use a lot of pins, carding and foam tubing, you will never get that hide to stay in the creases sculpted into forms. I sand down the whole form, even use Buckeye, but if it is not pinned and carded heavily it still pulls from creases. Just my opinion.
Please use hide paste! Not to offend you but I have seen mounts done " professionally" without it. Please go to another taxi's shop and compare, you will see a dramatic difference.
Mike G.
If the skin is pulling from the manikin even with hide paste how do you think it will hold with out? This has to be one of the most ridiculous ideas I have heard of yet on here. There are no average customers in this business and to think so is just bad business. The people that bring us there trophies are puting there trust in us to do the very best that we can to preserve there memmory of there hunt. I would love to see these mounts with no paste. I bet they must be a real treat to look at LOL. Jack F
When hides dry they don't "suck down to the form"! They pull them selves out of the hollow spots, that's why it's called DRUMMING. If your hide paste doesn't hold without a lot of carding and pinning, your form is TOO BIG.
Beginners shouldn't use any hide paste on their first few mounts. The mounts will not turn out anyway and the paste is just one less thing for them to worry about. Show me a REAL taxidermist that can point to his first mounts from 10+ years ago and tell you how great the mounts are. They are either thrown out or WORSE YET the work hasn't improved in those 10 years.
Here we go squabling over hide paste and who is right and who is wrong. Seems to me all of you on this site are only careing about how good a MOUNT you can do. Instead of how life like a mount should look. I have seen many many deer in my days and not very many of them alive or dead have anywhere the detail that is put into some of these forms. As well as I have never seen deer that have been groomed to perfection that I see in the comp. mounts and some customer mounts. Yes I think you need hide paste but to waste time and fight over it is rather childish. How is this helping a newb? I may never be well know but all I care is that I turn out the most lifelike mounts I can. Which is what I thought all Taxidermist were supposed to be trying to do? If you are so concerned on every little vein and mussel showing just paint the dam form brown and be done with it. Just my oppion. Go ahead and email with your complaints I don't carer. This site is supposed to be helpfull to those intrested in learning. If the guy wants to put twenty pounds of hide nails in or what ever he does to keep his hide from drumming that is between the people he is mounting for and himself. Lets see what happens after 5 or 10 years with his mounts with photos close up, then we will see who is right. I come here to see what I can pick up that might be usefull to my learning but I see more and more of this bickering all the time. Remember way back they used all sorts of things to create mounts then paper fourms etc. Who knows maybe he is on the cutting edge of something new? Not that I am going to try it.
By the way all this talk about comp. There is not one Taxidermist wjo spends 1/10 of the time on customer work as trhey would comp. work. So who care what you did at a show. Show me what you turn out everyday. That is what impresses me.
If your hide paste doesn't hold without a lot of carding and pinning, your form is TOO BIG. One of the first things I learned is keep your hide baggie. I don't do a lot of carding or hardly any pinning and I am doing just fine. I want ultimate realizm and will do what I have to, to get that. I am offended that 1st mounts don't turn out. How do you know that? That just make newb's think they can't achieve so don't try. If you take your time and study the "Greats" (going to seminars Helps) you will be suprised what you can do. I have one of the best teachers in the industry at my side and I dare anyone to do an open mouth like him. Anyone who is new can turn into a great but start out with good info and don't be afraid to ask A LOT OF QUESTIONS. Winning competitions is a reflection of your quality of work. If you think you are good then enter one and find out. Theres always room for improvement. As for the guy turning out a deer for his average customer, thats sad to think they won't notice. They pay your bills and deserve the best. They are getting a middle of the road mount but I bet they are paying premium prices. If thats the case then give them premium work.
Let's talk about how the skin fits the form? Are you measuring correctly? Learn that, work the form, add paste, then mount. Any questions?