how effective is using white gas for cleaning birds? does it work great?
Thanks, Nathan
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if u have a small fire going or a least make sure your smoking a cig.
check the archives for a different way.
I know your not an idiot and will work next to an open fire. Jason, I guess, felt the need to bust chops. When you say cleaning, do you mean degreasing? White gas is an effective degreaser, but there are plenty other degreasers that are more effective, less caustic, and a heck of a lot cheaper. Use a professional degreasing solvent from any taxidermy supplier. A small bottle will degrease dozens of skulls since it can be diluted in water. They are also much safer and give a pleasant odor (although I do enjoy the smell of gasoline also!). Bird skulls are a much different story than mammal skulls as I'm sure you know. I'd stay on the safe side and use the solvent. If you're doing really small birds, you might want to skip the solvent and just give them gentle dawn dishwashing soap "baths". Regardless, for any normal degreasing situation, nothing compares to the solvents.
It's a SOLVENT and it may shock to learn that's a world of difference. I wish I had a nickle for everytime I'd typed that.
works fine for degreasing
Congrats. You know your terminology. From the dictionary: "A solvent is a liquid that dissolves a solid, liquid, or gaseous solute, resulting in a solution." But I feel, George, that you should brush up on it a bit. Definitions are important, not just words. From the same dictionary: "Solvents can also be used to EXTRACT SOLUBLE COMPOUNDS FROM A MIXTURE, the most common example is the brewing of coffee or tea with hot water." See George, solvents, by definition are degreasers; they have the ability to exract compounds. White gas is an organic solvent composed of hydrocarbons. The "grease" in the skulls- which are organic oils also composed of carbon- have a high affinity to the gasoline, and gasoline exracts these compounds as any good degreaser would. So George since white gas is an organic solvent (as you so expertly mentioned) that is capable of extracting carbon compounds, and degreasing is the extraction of carbon-containing oils(compounds), that would make white gas a DEGREASER. And it's pretty darn good one for skulls at that! I'll have a nickel, thank you. Good luck on your skulls, Nathan.
White gas is a solvent. Solvents do DISSOLVE which means that when the solution dissolves the fat, the fat actually remains viable in the solution. By removing the solution, particles of fat will remain on the item. Solvent washes are common in mechanical shops. If you know anything about them, you'd know that special sinks simply recycle the solvent over a part to dissolve the grease and extract any damaging items from the part. Bearing washers immediately come to mind.
A soap, however, is a DEGREASER. That means (IN WORDS) that a soap is capable of breaking down the fat into INSOLUBLE particles without leaving a residue when they are removed. On feathers in particular, once the soap DEGREASES the bird, plain water can be used to rinse all that residue off the feathers.
SOLVENTS do an exceptional job on skulls simply because the bone is porous. The solvent breaks down that absorbed oil and then dilutes it enough to either be washed out with soap or stain the entire skull so that no noticeable spots will remain. I'm not sure that placing a skull in boiling soapy water wouldn't do just as well.
And FINALLY, don't ever use a dictionary as a source unless you use the large volumes that library's have. A desk top dictionary is useless in such matters. That's because dictionaries of that size only document USAGE of a word. That's how gay, coke,pot,bling,hoe, and a million other words have "new" meanings today. It's how "alright", though alwrong is listed instead of "all right" and "irregardless" gets to the light of day. Dictionaries are only your friend if you know how to use them properly.
Just how much gas does it take to do this silly trick? If it takes 2 gallons of gas to wash this turkey, that's $6. For that money, you could buy enough soap to do a couple dozen turkeys.
Next, what do you do with the residual? Eventually it's going to be contaminated, so do you reclaim it by pouring it through some sort of filter or do you pour it along your driveway to kill the weeds or pour it on fire ant beds?
I find it hard to believe in an era with buzzwords like "global warming", "eco-systems", and "carcinogen" that some of you insist on this senseless and ugly practice of taking sitzbaths in hazardous chemicals just to get a silly assed bird mounted.
You are absolutely right that in the dissolving of the oils within bone by a solvent, some particles of the oil will remain on the skull. This is nothing that the solvent water can rid. But at the same time, oils are extracted from skull via molecular interactions of the solvent and oil. It does not "stain the entire skull so that no noticeable spots will remain", not if you've done it right. Put a skull in a solvent for a few weeks. A clear solvent such as white gas will become clouded and dark; The oils within bone are extracted from the skull to the solvent. Nevermind that a bottle of gas doesn't say "Degreaser" on it. The action it performs upon a skull is the extraction of the underlying "grease". In my book, that's got "degreaser" all over it. Similarly, soap is capable of such removal. As a surfactant, it engulfs the grease and surrounds it in small particles, which can be washed away with water. Soap is the degreaser of choice for doing dishes, but as a degreaser of bone it is less than stellar. While the soap will remove grease as it should, it will also damage bone. Soaps are primarily sodium and potassium salt-based. These salt ions will displace the calcium ions within bone that give it its strength. Therefore, degreasing with soap will in fact "degrease", but it will also weaken the bone. It is for this reason that museums, universities, and any legitimate skull cleaning business opt for solvent degreasers. Wouter van Gestel, the leading authority on bird osteology uses solvents such as gas; Lee Post, master marine mammal osteologist, swears buy strong solvents such as petrol and ammonia; Stephen Rogers, manager of one of the largest osteological collections in the world, only uses similar solvents; Jay Villemarette, president of Skulls Unlimited, would never be caught dead using soap to degrease bones and instead pays top dollar for industrial solvents to produce perfect specimens. All these individuals know their vocabulary as much as you and I. But when it comes to knowing bones, they've got you beat. Now I'm sure you've cleaned many skulls in your life, but I will say confidently that none would hold their weight as clean and accurate osteological specimens. Cleaning with boiling and soap could never be superior to the methods these individuals use. You may THINK that your methods of skull cleaning are adequate (Indeed you do have a lot of thoughts and opinions- the reason you jumped at my post to begin with), but that's why you are not an osteologist. Your methods may suffice in producing attractive mounts, but that's as far as they go. There are individuals on this site interested in creating specimens better than that. I suggest you not cloud their studies and stick to what you know best. Thank you for this intelligent exchange.
A very valid question and one I've already answered. That is Gasoline's biggest downfall. It is rather expensive and difficult to dispose of. In my original post I suggested a cheaper, safer, and more effective solvent. Acetone works extremely well at degreasing skulls and can be diluted to reduce harmful effects in disposal. This is the solvent Skulls Unlimited uses for most of its specimens. Because of the large amounts needed, they require additional safety measures in the use and disposal of acetone. In fact, they just built a separate building for the degreasing process. I'm not sure if this is true as I have not done it, but I believe that acetone can be frozen to recover its orginal properties. At my university of study, we use professional solvents that you probably use all the time for taxidermy purposes. Most of these solvent are inexpensive and dilutable, and they pose little health and environmental threats.
Dave,
A surfactant is a wetting agent found in a lot of products like soap making water essentially wetter.
This is much different than a degreaser that contains an emulsifier. This is where the grease and oil particles are surrounded by the emulsifier making them essentially "water loving" putting them into solution and remain there. A good example of this would be milk where the butter fat is emulsified into stable solution without flipping out.
I'm an expert at just what you attempted. "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance you can always resort to baffling them with bullsh1t." Obviously you haven't talke to Stephen Rogers about his perceptions to using flammables as SOLVENTS. Additionally, some very shoddy research was done on your part as Bloodout/Degreaser underwent extensive testings and was accepted by the Smithsonian for the express purpose of DEGREASING.
To caveat your high mindedness of "some people" on this site, this particular posting was supplied by a self professed BEGINNER and it is totally irresponsible of you to imply that quality results cannot be had by using safer products that those you espouse. We have a plethora of professionals who've won national and world championships with their taxidermy work while eschewing the use of flammable chemicals. Maybe you should do a little more homework before you try to impress others. I've seen most of those stage plays before.
You use solvents, water based, (soap) to degrease the bird. Then, if you choose to, and I choose NOT to, for obvious reasons, you can use volatile solvents to chase the water from the skins when drying. I wanna clean the skin yet not strip the feathers of essential oils. But, I agree with George so what do I know?
Alrighty, I seriously considered not replying, not because I felt wrong in my statement but because I know that with you there is no winning. And while I can't lie that you at times have had me wanting to ring your neck, I thoroughly respect your raw honesty, strong will, and leadership among this forum. And I WAS in the wrong for letting my temper get the best of me and saying some things that may have struck a cord with you. In no way did I mean to offend you any, and if I did, you have my deepest apologies. With that said though, I must stand by my statements. I am not a taxidermist and have no clue how to degrease a bird skin, but in working with and being instructed by some truly amazing osteologists, I've come to be as firm in my beliefs as you are with yours, and I do firmly believe that soap will not compare to stronger solutions in degreasing bone. No, George, I have not had the privilege of speaking with Stephen personally, but I have followed his words of wisdom closely, as he is a gem of osteology just as you are of taxidermy. He has never said that he uses gasoline to degrease skulls, but he has reported the use of solvents that are also a bit dangerous- and flammable. In a post pertaining to the cleaning of bird skeletons, he stated that "you can actually attempt to pre-degrease after skinning and removing meat with an overnight soak in ammonia - it also bleeds out blood which can stain the bones." In the same post he also noted that "Sometimes after bugging I must soak the skeleton in Alcohol or an organic solvent to remove any residual fat or frass, and re-dry." At the same time, he also advocated that no degreasing is necessary in some situations. Further, he has routinely stated his personal opinions of the harmful effects of soap on skulls. Stephen as well as the others I've mentioned do routinely use such stronger solutions to get a nicely degreased specimen. And they are quite open with their techniques, as you can ask them yourself. I personally have found Rittel's Super Solvent an excellent degreaser for most skulls. Regardless of how it does it, the solvent is the best degreaser that I've used that doesn't compromise any visible bone damage and is not more hazardous than most household products (no cancer yet, fingers crossed). George, you have to use what you believe works, and you do. I have to do the same. We have two different goals in the cleaning of our skulls, and with that said, we cannot- and should not- argue any more about differences in techniques. I thank you though for putting my comments on the table. You keep everyone on their toes. Take care.
-Dave
I love honesty like that and I even got a chuckle at your need to wring my neck on occasion. LMAO Sometimes I feel the same way about myself.
And actually, I agree with your perception on BONES. They are porous and seem to absorb grease and oil. With them, I THINK that solvents actually "follow" them into the bone and dissolve them to enough degree they can be washed away or at least made ineffective allowing a good bleach to whiten them. I've often wondered if the dilution of those entrapped particles and the solvent don't work in concert to "stain" the entire bone instead of a small portion of it. Either way, I DO agree with you on the bone issue. Skin, however, is a realm that I deal in constantly and with it, safer is always much better since one little screw up will give you turkey leather instead of turkey skin.