Submitted by Mick on 8/8/99. ( MicD63@aol.com )
Taxidermists vs. Hacksadermists. We've all read numerous postings pertaining to the ongoing battle to get some type of "middle ground" established in regards to pricing within the taxidermy field. Perhaps at no other time of year than now, with hunting seasons right around the corner, could such an exchange of ideas benifit more?
We're all very much aware that a wide range of prices are present in our field. I'll select deer as an example, being largly the bread and butter of most taxidermy studios.I have seen prices range from $150 - 500, and in some cases much more. Obviously, much hinges on quality as well as studio location. In a small less thriving economy, your work will not command the $ than it would it a large triving metropolis, all else being equal. But all things are relative, as the larger market most certainly offers larger salaries to compensate for a higher cost of living. Quite likely in this case , the $275 - 300 dollar deer may well equal the $700 deer in quality. I would think that anyone who is in this business full time would see the logic of this. Location, Location,Location.
However this is not where our problem lies. Rather than address the high dollar deerhead, that likely may be done by the full timer that needs to charge the price in order to exist in his area, lets turn our attention to the amatuer part timer. I don't want to go into great detail, as it's been covered before, but simply put, You guys that work a full time job, then come home to work on your mounts after hours are doing an injustice to the profession as a whole, when you set your prices so low, that even a moderately priced mount job by a professional looks excessive to the public. No you may not have the overhead involved that a full time guy has, but at very least you ARE entitled to time and a half or double time on your labor, plus a profit markup on your materials. I won't pretend to tell you what you should be charging, but make it easy to figure out on your own. You've got the computer, and a spreadsheet program makes it exceptionaly easy to build a cost analysis on any mounts that you do. One column for time in hours, one for forms, eyes, earliners, etc. Then go through and plug in all your numbers and allow the computer to tell you what you should be charging. Forget Joe Blow that does his dirty smelly deerheads for $150, and ask yourself, How much am I worth?
I don't think the intention for anyone is to eliminate hacks, but by continual remindance of pricing awareness, we may be gradually able to raise the level of that "middle ground" to something more in line with the present day cost of living. I no longer ask myself "How much will a particular deerhead be worth to a customer?" That's not my concern. My only concern these days is "How much are my services worth?" The fact is that some customers can't or won't afford to mount there trophy at my price and will always search out the hacksadermist. Bill Yox pointed out to me on this very forum once, that "You can't be concerned with those customers, as they weren't coming to you anyways". Stepping stones, right Bill?
No intention to lump all beginners as hacksadermists, some produce quality work, and the outdoor world needs these lower priced alternatives to a professional. Simply apply some commom business sense to what it is that you're doing. Maybe through education we can raise the middle ground.
My rambling point is for you to figure out your complete costs, then figure out your time involved. Last but not least, figure out what your "free time" is worth to you and your family. If you're trying to build a full time business based on undercutting your area competition, you are swimming against the current, and the river is winning.
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This response submitted by Rob on 8/8/99. ( )
I just answered the deer head post before reading this post---well said.I agree.If I was working a full time job somewhere for 12.00 an hour , my overtime charge would be 18.oo an hour in most cases.If I was a part time taxidermist I would never mount animals for less than my overtime rate at my normal job.Why would I want to give away my free time for 5.00 or less an hour?? In all honesty part-time taxidermists by monetary standards should be charging more than their full time counterpart,if they have any self value.
This response submitted by Rod on 8/8/99. ( allenrod@adamsnet )
Mick and Rob. I do not consider myself a hacksidermist or any threat to anyone's fulltime business. I enjoy doing taxidermy. Taxidermy is a hobby that I have. I do not advertise nor do I seek out customers. I will not do enough mounts for it to become work to me. The fact that people come to me must mean that they are not getting the quality elsewhere for I charge well for my hobby when I do it for others. I guess I just can't understand why a person cannot do something because he enjoys it without feeling like fulltimers see you as a threat. The key to getting and keeping customers is in doing quality work at a fair price and treating people well.
After reading so much venom on these forums lately I feel I must say I have the utmost respect and admiration for those of you who make a living doing the things you love to do and I believe you that are successful do not feel threatened by the 6-10 mounts I do a year.
I played football in high school and got to be pretty good but not near as good as those that did it for a living. I don't think Otis Taylor ever feared my entry into professional football.Nor should any of you feel threatened by those of us that just love to do the work.
O.K. I did it! I put the target on my back. Go ahead and shoot.
Rod
This response submitted by Rob P. on 8/8/99. ( robstf@cs.com )
I am a full time taxidermist and I am NOT threatened by the so called hackidermist. Let them charge what they want. Who cares? If you do then i feel its that you think that your charging to much. What is to much? Whats not enough? So do all taxidermist sign a contract to freeze prices? Like that will work.
Take this point. What about shops that send out work to other shops because they are to busy? Are thier prices to low? My prices are based on costs, labor, utilities, shop profit, retirement, and if my wife is going shopping that month. With those in price formula I get a raise at least once a year, more money year after year, I have a better retirement plan then most businesses, but yet I only send out work if it inhances the item then if I were to do it myself(freeze-drying is one). I also seldom have a turnaroud more then 5-6 mo on most work.
So let other people charge what they want and live the way they want, broke and working 60+ hours a week. Oh yea, about 60 % of my work is return customers. About 20% is referrals from those customers and the rest are customers I know WILL be return customers.
After I do one mount for someone when they comeback price is very seldom a issuse, and if it is I tell them look at what I did for you before and go ahead a take a CHANCE somewhere else, they dont.
To end I feel we need to use our energy on keeping our customers happy, and not ripping on other people and their prices.
We all started as rookies and we all will learn how to work and run a business different. Its a fact of life.
This response submitted by Rob P. on 8/8/99. ( robstf@cs.com )
I am a full time taxidermist and I am NOT threatened by the so called hackidermist. Let them charge what they want. Who cares? If you do then i feel its that you think that your charging to much. What is to much? Whats not enough? So do all taxidermist sign a contract to freeze prices? Like that will work.
Take this point. What about shops that send out work to other shops because they are to busy? Are thier prices to low? My prices are based on costs, labor, utilities, shop profit, retirement, and if my wife is going shopping that month. With those in price formula I get a raise at least once a year, more money year after year, I have a better retirement plan then most businesses, but yet I only send out work if it inhances the item then if I were to do it myself(freeze-drying is one). I also seldom have a turnaroud more then 5-6 mo on most work.
So let other people charge what they want and live the way they want, broke and working 60+ hours a week. Oh yea, about 60 % of my work is return customers. About 20% is referrals from those customers and the rest are customers I know WILL be return customers.
After I do one mount for someone when they comeback price is very seldom a issuse, and if it is I tell them look at what I did for you before and go ahead a take a CHANCE somewhere else, they dont.
To end I feel we need to use our energy on keeping our customers happy, and not ripping on other people and their prices.
We all started as rookies and we all will learn how to work and run a business different. Its a fact of life.
This response submitted by MTN. DOGS on 8/8/99. ( )
Hey this is america folks !! If a man wants to mount a deer for 100.oo that's his choice & if he want's to do it for 700 Great& no one has the right to dictate How much, But I do think there should be some kind of testing or certification to weed out B.S. from the real macoy. seems some are more worried aboat the guy down the road then their own backyard, If a man's happy at what he 's doing & paying the bills He's very lucky
This response submitted by Mick on 8/8/99. ( MicD63@aol.com )
My original post is only a seed for thought. I don't feel threatened by amatuers and I am comfortable in the prices that I charge. I honestly feel that if just a small percentage read this post, and decide to raise their price slightly, then the industry as a whole eventually benifits. I'm not knocking anyone who does it part time, and it certainly is well within your rights to set your prices as you see fit. Rob P. you are obviously quite full with yourself, and have your future well planned out, and I applaud that. However my point is to others, and only that, if you pay your auto mechanic, plumber or electrician $30 an hour, why shouldn't you EXPECT to pay that to your taxidermist? After all, I can wire a light fixture, plumb a sink and on occasion, even bust my knuckles under the hood of my truck, but how many of them can do the work we do? I think that when the industry as a whole is being adequatly compensated as an average, we will stand to gain much in the way the general public percieves us, instead of hearing "You do WHAT for a living? " :)
This response submitted by Rob P. on 8/8/99. ( )
Your right to a point about what we are worth to our customers. When a person goes the the garage he knows when its done it should be fixed ? and its $60.00 to get it that way for however long. But in our industry the customer looks at the price some of the time BEFORE the work is done and they dont know how we come to that. That is were we need to use our not only art talent, but our salesmanship to win our customers over. Now the guy charging $150.00 he might be only worth $150.00, but if his work is worth more well that is his fault. Ibelieve and always will, a customer worth keeping is one that understands what it takes to do what we do. And it is our job to take price out of it or make them realize that $395.00 is worth it more than the $150.00. If they dont then I didnt do a good job "selling" me or they are not worth having. I compare it to buying a car in away. I pay more from my dealership just because of the service they give me during and after the sale. They feel the same way we due, the salesman, sell a ton full less or sell fewer for a little more AND give your customer the service.
I kind of went on different roads there but you get my idea. But I do know where youre comming from Mick and you are right.
Rob P.
This response submitted by D.Rogers on 8/8/99. ( Dondi_12@yahoo.com )
I admit it, it's me.......I'm the haxidermist everyone talks about.
I felt the need to bring myself out of anonymity after reading Micks
posting. Mick you described me to a "T". I do have a good job with
the state, and I do Taxidermy part time. I shamefully admit it. I do
Taxidermy for several reasons. One, because I enjoy it very much. Two,
because extra money is always nice. Three, because I can't sit still
for all four quarters of a football game and I got to do something so
why not Taxidermy. And Four I love animals, especially the ones I
don't have to feed.
I apologize for throwing everyone out of kilter on thier pricing.
This was not my intention when I decided to get into Taxidermy.
I got into it because it has always interested me, and I had the strong
desire to do it. I love the art of it. I unfortunately am not as gifted
as most of you out there. But, I have only had one customer in 10 years
that I thought wasn't pleased with his mount.(it was a fish, swore his was bigger)
I think that is a pretty good track record myself.
Yes, I spend a lot of time in the shop in the evenings, after my regular job
yes my prices are most assuredly lower than most of yours, and yes I suppose
you could say I give my work away..........But, you know what.....If you love
what you do......then it's not WORK. That's at least the way I look at it.
My son comes out and helps me after his homework is done, he likes it.
My wife does the finish work on my mounts, she says she enjoys doing it.
We have fun together out there,(sometimes,it can be different). And I
make a what I call a fair amount of "EXTRA" money, it helps out quite a bit.
Maybe I am just ignorant for doing my deer heads "So Cheap" as some would say,
but heck, I enjoy it, my wife doesn't complain, (she recieves a lot of the money
thats probably why). My kids surely KNOW who thier daddy is, I promise you
I'm not just someone who comes home and goes right to the shop eveyday.
Though sometimes I do. My prices are comparable with others around here
I'm not the cheapest, and it doesn't bother me when someone goes somewhere
else. I do live in an area of the country where wages aren't very high
and that has to be taken into consideration. Which I do. I make money for my
work, some of you may not think so, or wouldn't do it for what I do it at
and thats OK. Don't think I'm only here to cut some full timers profits.
Nothing could be farther from the truth, and I really don't see how
anyone could really see it that way. I enjoy it, I like the extra money,
I charge all I can, believe me. If where you live you can charge 400.00
for a deer head, that's GREAT, more power to you. I on the other hand cannot
charge that much, I catch grief with what my prices are now. Not that that
bothers me, it doesn't. But, somewhere along the price line, you can price
yourself right out of business too. I feel that I am on the proverbial "EDGE" now.
My work speaks for itself, it might be worth 500.00 (deer head) it might not
be worth more than 150.00. I just know that I do my very best with
what talent the good Lord blessed me with. Some may turn thier noses up
at it, and thats fine, but I feel my prices are fair for my area.
The quality I put into my Deer Heads is what I consider very good, some obviously
would say different. That's fine too. I'm not on here to argue. I
just wanted to admit to being the "Haxidermist". I apologize once
again for all the inconvenience I may have caused. But, if my family
doesn't complain about the time I'm out there..........
Thank you
This response submitted by Keith Daniels on 8/9/99. ( arlcape@bright.net )
One thing everyone needs to keep in mind when you discuss hourly rates. When you go to a mechanic, plumber, electrician etc. it's usually a neccesity and you have no choice. Taxidermy is a luxury item, the customer can live without it, so you'll be lucky to command the same rate.
This response submitted by Rob on 8/9/99. ( )
Please read my post on the threads "how much does it cost to mount a deerhead". I specifically said any taxidermist doing work for a profit --non hobbyist-- should take a 101 business course.I do not feel threatened by anybody.Hobby taxidermists such as yourself are fine with me.I almost think taxidermy would be more fun as a hobby than a career because I wouldn't have all the worries of making it full time.
One important thing everybody has left out is TAXES.Are you part timers even the few with a valid taxidermy license declaring any of your profits with the IRS.Just this little point alone would force you to raise your prices more competively with your full time counterparts.Do you all have any idea how much business taxes,property taxes,income taxes,and declaring inventory at the end of the year costs for a legitimate full timer.Probably not.I would bet 90% or more of all part timers do all work "under the table".If you declared your profit to the IRS-what little you do make on those 250.00 deer heads would be significantly lower.You would begin to see why full timers have such negativity towards the undercutting by part time "professionals".
This response submitted by Duran on 8/9/99. ( kincaidj@tce.com )
I'm not even doing this for any money yet but I know where I will start my prices when I do. I'll have a "beginner" rate for the first year and then adjust to what I think my work is worth the next year and then re-evaluate it every so often.
What Keith has backwards is that we "will be lucky to command the same rate" as electricians, mechanics and etc. because this is a luxury. THINK ABOUT IT YA'LL. Does GM charge less for a Cadillac because it is a luxury? Does BMW do the same for a 525i? How 'bout a ROLEX? Does the phone company charge less on your bill each month because you don't have to have it? My satellite bill did not go down lately. It is actually going up 'cause DIRECTTV bought USSB and I'm going down in the number of channels I have (i.e. lower quality).
My point is, in life we have luxuries and necessities. Things we want and need. They both cost alot in different ways. But if you want real luxury items, then by NECESSITY you will pay out your A**.
Finally, set your price by what you want and for your time and effort. STOP worrying about what the guy down the road is doing. More than one "Old Timer" on here has stated how they raised their prices to try and slow down the volume of work and it just increased.
When I start doing this as a "pro" I will be the highest in my area and only $50 per deer head less than the best Tax. I know up in Indy which is 40+ miles away.
Take Care and God Bless Ya'll,
DURAN
This response submitted by Carl on 8/10/99. ( spinneyc@klis.com )
I am wondering what the definition of a haxidermist is?
is it the person who does 2 or 3 mounts and then "knows it all", and goes around critiquing everyones work?
The same type of person who will tell others that they got ripped by going to another taxidermist as "his mounts are not that much better and I am soooooo much cheaper!!" that is my definition of a haxidermist
What I read of Dondi Rogers post tells me he is a part timer/ hobbiest which is the same as a lot of people out here.
I have been doing taxidermy for about 18 yrs or so , as a hobby/ second income. I have never entered any competitions or shows other than a small outdoors show. I try to use the best materials available and am always looking to improve my methods .
My prices are not low nor are they the highest in the area. I feel my time is worth money and I charge accordingly
I also pay my taxes on the work I do ,, gotta keep the taxman happy, and that is also reflected in my pricing.
I get the feeling from reading some of the posts on here that part timers are being regarded as hacks ,, I just feel that there is a difference between being a hack and being a part time taxidermist
just my opinion
Have a great day everyone!
This response submitted by Rod on 8/10/99. ( allenrod@adamsnet )
Rob,I'm sorry that you make me so defensive but you once again assume that a hobbiest or part-timer has got to be evil somehow. I have reported my income,my inventory,cost of education, etc. for as long as i have made money from it. I would no more try to cheat the IRS than I would a customer.
Rob you say you have no problems with what I do as a hobby and than spend the rest of your article betting we are not only hacks but thiefs.
Rob, I am sorry that I dared to disagree with you but you see I do have a little self value.
This response submitted by Rob on 8/10/99. ( )
Anybody that only does 6-10 mounts per year is a hobbyiest by any standard.You are not a part-timer by my defination.You do taxidermy as a hobby in your spare time.--Big difference than doing it as a part time job for profit 20-30 hours per week.I not trying to start anything but come on now--you stated you do 6-10 mounts per year--what kind of an idiot do you take me for to believe that you declare your inventory.You have none.I seriously doubt if you do turn in your profit on 10 mounts either.Come on now fess up I wasn't born yesterday.
This response submitted by Rod on 8/11/99. ( allenrod@adamsnet )
Well Rob again you are wrong. I would rather that all this back and forth could have been between just you and I but you leave no address for me to respond to.
This is me fessing up: In the year 1998 my inventory on hand at the end of the year was precisely $ 1,202.00.
I paid $173.00 in tannery costs that were deducted plus freight and cost of education.
I paid exactly $106.00 in self-employment tax( as stated on line 5 section A of schedule SE Form 1040.
Almost every dime of profit that I make goes back into my hobby so supporting my hobby is my only goal. I really don't know why you can't accept the fact that someone enjoys doing this work for the fun of it and is honest with the department of conservation and IRS but that is the truth. I am done answering any more of your accusations on this format but if you want to give me your address I'll argue with you for a little while longer.
This response submitted by deer woman on 8/12/99. ( )
One thing not discussed much is the full time hack. I know of a few within my area- they get in 150 deer heads, etc. They charge on the low end, and the work is not all that good- not detailed, eyes not right, etc. The ones i know of charge in the low 200's. Yes i once charged 200.00 as a beginner ( and my work was still better than the hacks i must say, as i have some pride and like animals looking the way they should). I just raised my price to 350.00 for my 5th year, but I really do not care what anyone thinks anymore because i know what I'm worth as an artist/craftsperson. I will still get work in. the thing about hacks that peeves me is the disrespect to the animal and the fact that the hunter gets fleeced. Misleading is the line of "30 years experience". I know alot of 30 year veterans are fine and do great work, but what about those that are still stuck in the 1970's or something? People still go to them between price and the experience line, not realizing whats going on until too late. the other problem with hacks is some have highly visible busnesses- along major routes or highways, thus giving them the upper hand in attracting busness. They get work and lots. This is probably what gets to most full timers who do the quality stuff- these "factories" if you will. Every deer coming out of there looks the same, instead of individual attention; the capes are over stretched to increase neck size; bad tanning or dry preservative deer mounts; black only finish work painting; BS from the taxidermist "it will be done in 2 months" turns into 2 years dishonesty- these are all good examples of hacks- usually all attrubutes applied from this list- and from full timers too. I do not have a problem with hobbyists- just these "factories" and part timers who take in alot, charge little and do not do good work. I said enough- fire away- I'm sure i said something bad. LOL
This response submitted by Mick on 8/13/99. ( MicD63@aol.com )
I think deerwoman hit the nail on the head ! I don't know who coined the name "hacksadermists", but in my mind, the deffinition would not include beginners. I think this name would be more applicable to the wannabees and the neverbees, those that have built or are trying to build their full time business through deceipt and deception. Those that can't attract attention to their business by virtue of quality, thus turn to undercutting in price, anyone and everyone that gets in their way. I think that it's these guys that give the industry a black eye.
This response submitted by Larson on 8/14/99. ( )
Why is this thread on the beginners page? I am not even as advanced in my skills as most of the beginners who post messages here. I have only done a few antler mounts and a couple of birds that looked like they were run over by a truck. I have no plan of ever doing taxidermy as anything but a hobby. After reading this thread, I am not sure if I should. I wouldn't want my hobby to somehow damage the industry. This is the first time I have read somethin on the forum that actually discouraged me from getting better and pursuing taxidermy as a hobby. Usually I am inspired and go straight to my shop to mangle another bird!
My feeling about hobbyists is that they should not charge anything over their cost if they are doing mounts for friends. I don't charge when I take a buddy fishing in my boat. They may give me some gas money, but I never make a profit. That is the way I have approached the few antler mounts I have done. They paid exactly the cost of materials and shipping. Yes, it is a good deal for them, especially if I try to tackle a deerhead, but it is a good deal for me because it is my HOBBY. It is how I relax. Like watching TV or reading a good book. If I thought that I could ever be good enough, maybe I would start doing it part time, but I am just like the guy who likes to paint on the weekend. No real artistic talent, but a love of the creative process.
This kind of wandered back and forth and I do see the contradiction in my own post. The bottom line is that I don't have the skill level to charge for my time. I also don't have the inclination as it is a hobby not a job. Someday, maybe I can convert the hobby into a job. That is not my plan, but if I do get good enough I wouldn't rule it out. At that point, I will charge for my time. Until then I should be no competition to those of you who make money at it. I hope we can see the beginner page filled with the helpful and encouraging advice that has always been here.
Larson
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