Submitted by John C on 2/5/1999. ( taxidermist118@hotmail.com )
As this forum has matured, the one thing that really stands out from 99% of the BEGINNERS is lack of research, and gathering of EDUCATIONAL MATERIALS.
Please don't be offended by this it is intended to get you started correctly, in the right direction.
After over 20 years in the business, I still look in the WASCO instuctional books everyday.
I have a set and there in a set in the shop. I also have the Jonas TECH. BOOKS.
PLEASE spend the money and get these books. Get your subcriptions to ALL the TRADE JOURNALS.
It appers many of you have bought a tape or two but have failed to get more detailed instructions.
THEN JOIN your STATE ASSOC. Enter the competitions, these shows and competitions are for LEARNING. Once you get that National or World class Taxidermist critique on your mounts, you will really begin to learn.
At this time I plan on going to some shows and entering many mounts this season. Why? I want to learn, I want to be one of the best.
Why be one of the best? More money, a better life style, I have things I want to do and places I want to go. And with this I know I can.
The top people make the top money, get the best clients, and there is always room at the top.
LOOK at how many so-so taxidermist there are around, and how they stuggle. Bunches, right. Are you fighting and scraping for every mount and then not getting paid for your time?
Who says you have to be a fulltime taxidermist right now?
I see a lot of taxidermist (students) on here in the last six months already talking about building shops and getting more clients etc.
Think about this. How many can really do a good job? You don't really have the knowledge. Don't rush into this. I will bet you have NOT read the Breakthrough Business manual, have you?
We have at these shows taught people to be some of the best Taxidermist in the world, but we have not taught them BUSINESS and untill you learn BUSINESS, I will put money that You will fail.
Again this is not intended to down grade anyone, but only to open your EYES.
Your friend in Taxidermy, John Creager.
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This response submitted by perry on 2/5/1999. ( pgk@ncentral.com )
As someone who entered this profession from the school of hard knocks
I will Guarantee you that John is 100% right. Dues in this business are
long and hard, but worth every minute.
This response submitted by Turtle on 2/5/1999. ( mooretr@in-arng.ngb.army.mil )
I agree with you almost 100%. But, all those things you mentioned like subscriptions to ALL trade magazines, state associations, competitions,schooling, and instructional books all cost MONEY. Most of us just starting out do not have much money. (At least I don't)Asking questions and reading other people's questions and reading the responses from the "professionals" has not cost me a dime yet. (that is except for paper and printer ink) I have a binder set up with most of the postings printed off this forum. I work out of my kitchen and a back bedroom. (not a very sanitary method) , but my lack of funds has forced me to do this. That is why I see that a shop is almost a mandatory item even for a beginner. I glean every ounce of information I can find concerning the taxidermy trade.
So John C, if you are our friend in taxidermy, why don't you give us some helpful info that doesn't cost us an arm and leg instead of a lecture on business practices. I tried your method and almost went bankrupt in the process (ordered all kinds of manuals, tapes, and magazines). I am however going to invest in the state association's competition in March. But, that still is costing me $75.00. I hope it will be money well spent. But, that $75.00 may not appear like much money to some people, but it is to me. I am sure that if this forum was available back when you began your career in taxidermy that you would have taken advantage of it too.
Hope I did'nt offend you John C, because you have given some very good tips in the past. Maybe you were like me in the begining, maybe not. Every now and then, I detect a little note of irritation in some of the other guys on the foum when answering the beginners questions. Nonetheless, all the professionals out there need to stop and realize that there are a lot of us new guys that are scratching real hard trying to break into this field. We don't expect to get everything for free, and we really appreciate (I mean REALLY appreciate) the help we get from you guys on the forum.
I am sorry for being long winded,(you probably thought this was John B in disguise) (just funning you Mr B.) but are questions are serious or we wouldn't have bothered you. Turtle
This response submitted by perry on 2/5/1999. ( pgk@ncentral.com )
I think there is a small mis understanding. Yes you should subscribe
and attend conventions, buy books etc. But you don't have to do it all
at once... Remember I wrote above, "dues in this business are long and
hard but worth every minute. Your upcoming convention is an excellent
start. I think you will be able to get your 75 dollars worth from the
seminars alone, but if you can swing it, enter a piece in the competition.
Don't enter with the idea to sweep the ribbons, but to have the piece
HONESTLY critiqued by an expert. You may not agree with his/her assessment,
but it will give you some guidance and direction IF you are willing to
accept it. Your business cannot get to the size of your dreams overnight.
I have been licensed as a professional for 7 yrs. I still work from my
basement, and still( GOD Bless her) use the kitchen sink and table now
and again( More so when she's not home). My customers still come to the
front door, and call at all hours. They still on occasion leave their
dead critters on my porch if I'm not home, and come or call back in a few
hours( I didn't say ALL my customers were bright). Believe me when we
say, we've been there, done that. In reality, it is the ONLY way we
could come up with answers to some of these very GOOD questions. It also
gives some of us a fairly good sense of humor( right yoxy).
This response submitted by John C on 2/5/1999. ( taxidermist118@hotmail.com )
I started out just like everyone else. One year I did 65 deerheads in a 8 x 12 laundry room with a washer dryer and a deep freeze plus the hot water heater. I too have worked in a spare bed room so its not anything new.
Now as for the books one at a time over the next 2 or 3 years. Your in the military I see, I just retired medically so I know what a limited income you have.
But by getting the business book first, you will learn more about pricing, and you actual cost of production. It does you and your wife little good for you to spend 8 hours on a deerhead and make $20.00 before taxes. What I am telling you is this is overtime work and you can get paid for overtime work.
Going rate for less than the best is around $85-$100 for ducks, $5.00 per inch on fish and about $250.00 on deer. Some more some less but this is learner quality retail prices.
I do know how tuff it is starting out. If I had to replace all the things i se for reference it would cost a couple grand.
I will make you a real deal, I will show you how to do a deerhead for free. But you have to come to the shop in Arkansas, and listen to the speach that goes with it.
I did this with another guy from Kansas, what do you know he figured out it is cheaper to send his capes of for tanning, i.e. time equals money.
Hope this has really helped. But the books one at a time will help more. Thats why work on one subject, for several months and the investment will work out.
spent twenty uears getting to where I am today and by the time I am 50 I may have it whipped. John C.
This response submitted by Doug on 2/5/1999. ( Scheibs@ibm.net )
John,
I consider myself a beginner and have been on this forum since the beginning
and before that. You may not recognize my E-mail address because i don't
ask many questions.
Why don't i ask questions? 90% of the questions i would ask
have already been answered. Hear is how i use this forum to my advantage.
I have a 3 ring binder divided into the same categories as this forum
when i come across a posting that i feel would be useful to me, i
print it out and insert it into my binder. One thing i do find a little
annoying is people asking questions in the wrong catigories. I know
its easy to get cought up in the forum but if everyone would just
take a few seconds and think of what catigory would best fit there
question. it would make it easier for everyone to search for answers.
I have recently purchased several of the Breakthrough manuals. as I
read through these manuals, I'm finding alot of answers to questions
asked on this forum. These are great manuals and if you order them
through WASCO. Make sure you join the Book club. it will save you $$
One thing i have learned in life is you can have anything you want
as long as your willing to work for it. Oh yeh, stay away of those
negitive people. you know the one's that say 'YOU CAN'T DO THAT '.
Just my $.02 worth.
Doug
This response submitted by Bill on 2/5/1999. ( yoxtax@aol.com )
I hope to help this out a bit. If you detect irratation, its just that in our way of thinking, SOME(not all) beginners ask the same thing over and over again. My feeling is this: they not only won't go out and find the answers themselves (this forum is easier, I can't blame them) but they won't even try to find it here first by just scrolling back. And if the answer isnt detailed enough you get a crappy reply from them! Yeah, its happened to me a few times. I paid all that money that you don't have and I didnt either. I dont say to go out and buy the books just because I did so you should too. Its not a negative comment at all. Come on out and read my e-mail every day and you'll see what doesnt make it to the forum. Im not exaggerating! But, I think you'll agree that some of us "regulars" spend at least an hour a day answering this forum to help you guys out because you are the same as us. I enjoy seeing the so-called newbies answering other questions on thier own. Thats what this thing is about. Some folks just feel that someone else owes them or that we push things that are too much money. Did it ever occur to anyone just how much $ WASCO puts up for this site, including other suppliers names? Hell, they even hyperlink the suppliers. Yup, they get some sales in return but it doesnt support this totally. So please, dont read all the info here that is given freely and then turn around and throw a shot. I can run MY business very effectively without this site, can you? And before you holler back to me, Im not really critisizing you, just using your posting as an opportunity to voice this. I know I'm not the only one who feels this way, either. Turtle, please don't take this personally, I think you know how I mean this. Heck, I've seen you answer some questions here, too. Oh yeah, Ive run work out of a downstairs room off the cellar next to the sump pump, an upstairs bedroom in an old house(my first one) and in a 24x24 garage. We have all been there! That too, is part of the dues we pay to get better. Im still trying...Turtle, John C HAS helped you alot, it'll just take time for it to look that way. Always remember that the written words can't always express the meaning we wish to show. I, for one, know how much you new guys appreciate this, I never felt any different. Heck do you know that guys send me shed antlers, arrowheads etc to me to thank me for a question answered that I sometimes dont even recall answering? Im GLAD to be a part of this, or I wouldnt be here! Really, I cant say it any differently. Hope you can see the other perspective. If ya wanna chat, try me evenings at 716-637-2450, lots of guys here call, dont be bashful. Evenings are better as I get to the phone quicker then...Bill Yox.
This response submitted by Perry on 2/5/1999. ( pgk@ncentral.com )
Bill,
Once again I say, YOU DA MAN!!! I couldn't have written it
better. Pat your self on the back. - Don't twist or break your
arm in the process, after ken, ivan and Jerry S. we can't afford
to have too many more people get hurt.
This response submitted by Bob C on 2/6/1999. ( bobswildlife@webtv.net )
Turtle, Boy do I understand a lot of which you said. BUT, Perry said it best, the dues are long and hard. I hate to use this analogy but I think its the easiest to understand.I want to become an auto mechanic.I dont have the money to go to school or even buy the repair manuals, so I'll just get the info from word of mouth. Doesn't sound to smart does it ? How good a business do you think you'll have ? My guess is not to good. I look at it like this. If you jump into a lake and you dont know how to swim,chances are you're
gonna drown. Dont you think it would be smart to at least learn to doggy paddle first? These taxidermy manuals and publications could be your life vest. They can keep you afloat. I, like John C, started with the Jonas Tech. manuals. Then bought all the WASCO manuals. But my favorites are the trade magazines. MY GOD where can I get so much info for about $2 a month. Yes that is what it cost to subscribe to Breakthrough . If you subscribe to all the trade mags it would cost you less than 10.00 / month. Money well spent. How do you think I got to where I am today in taxidermy? I never took classes from anyone, one on one . But I did read every thing available,then I started going to the competitions. The seminars were my "one on one" BOY did they help me out. I HAVE learned from the best at these seminars. Not only that , but some of these people have become some of the BEST friends I have. I still compete with great enthusiasm. Yea it might be for the EGO thing, that pat on the back,which we all enjoy,but its also because I'm still willing to learn,and I'm still learning. Its all an investment in trying to be the BEST we can be. Bob C
This response submitted by Mick on 2/6/1999. ( MicD63@aol.com )
I'm speechless for sure (good thing, after Bill's response, huh?) Just kidding you Bill. All of the posts above, and these gentlemen are respected experts in the field, have outlined the taxidermy learning process for you. All a beginner needs to do, is follow their advice word for word. Knowledge equals time (and money) invested. Incedentally, anyone considering the competition arena, should read Bill Yox's column in the new issue of Breakthrough, the man pulls no punches, tells it like it should be. He's convinced me to have a go at it. I've been involved with taxidermy for better than 20 yrs, full-time for the past 7 yrs, and yes, I still work from my basement too (along with my garage showroom, and a former spare bedroom, and I even use the kitchen stove to boil my antlers (when my wife isen't home anyways). My longwinded point is simple, follow the advice that these pros have given you and put in the time. Good luck to all.
Mick
This response submitted by chris on 2/6/1999. ( buba_21@hotmail.com )
I would just like to take a moment to thank every one who has ever put any information on this site. I've been watching this site for some time now and have learned hoard of info off of here.
I to dont have the money to buy all the book and pamplets, i'm 26 years old just out or the marine corps . Spent four years in college four in the corps, and am about to got to oficers training camp to become a
DNR officer. I'm doing mounts of the animals i trap here i indiana. Pretty much all i know i learned from you guys,( which i'm glad to say is quite a bit). Would just like to say thanks, and please help any one
who asks, i was one of them andyou guys got me off on the right foot.
This response submitted by Dale C. on 2/6/1999. ( fullstrut2@hotmail.com )
I myself like Doug mentioned above pour through these catagories like a bad habit.And just about 99% of the time I find the answer. My printer is on the fritz so my wife prints them at school.WE both have full time jobs and two small daughters and she goes to collage fulltime at night paid for with grants and scolarships. So I know that money can be an issue. But we have found an way to buy some books they are a must.I even got my sister to get me a breakthrough mag. subscription for christmas.I have been a carpenter for 20 years and a musican for 23 yrs. so I know all about time and dues.I would like to take this time to a give a great big thanks to all the "regulars" Bill,Bob C.,John C,Perry
John B. ect.. You guys are what keeps this fourm alive. I'm starting my third licensed year in my shop (basement) this year and bussiness has doubled every year ,you do good work you get good clients. the same ones have been coming back over and over and also bring more work
with them, word of mouth sort of thing.I agree with John we will all never stop learning god I hope not anyway Like Doug I dont put out many posts but I read almost all of them and next to the manuals its my best tool in the shop.So in closeing Turtle keep pushing on. THANKS EVERYONE...Dale C. {Indiana}
This response submitted by Bob C on 2/6/1999. ( bobswidlife@webtv.net )
How do you like that. We ARE getting through to some of these guys. You know sometimes its hard to know if we are reaching anybody out there. I sometimes sit here and think is it worth all the time invested to help out on this forum. Then you get responces such as these. And they give me the answer, you're damn right it is. My satisfaction is when someone comes on here and thanks me, or any one of us, for helping them out. You guy really dont know how much the thank yous mean. Bob C
This response submitted by Bill on 2/6/1999. ( yoxtax@aol.com )
...I'll tell ya that all you guys that thank us, we thank you, too. Its fun to visit with you guys, I learn things in here all the time. It helps me be a better instructor for when a guy CAN free up some tough to find cash. Just to show you fellas that we are in the same boat, I have four kids and right now my wife is at home, so Im not buying as many reference books from the back pages of the Breakthrough Mags either! We will all be better for it soon...Thanks for bringing up the original topic Turtle!
This response submitted by Matt Rhodes on 2/6/1999. ( mrhodes@michianatoday.com )
Wow, with all this typing I wonder how anyone has time to mount anything! But it's good to see that many important points have been brought out in the open. I have only been using this forum for a few weeks but have read all the posts and I can honestly say that I feel for you guys when faced with the repetitive, non-researched, or common sense-defying questions. I'm sure WASCO already has plans for this, but it is probably time for a Frequently Asked Question section where the older posts pertaining to "DP vs. Tanning" type stuff can be archived so that the forums can focus on new, relevant questions and reduce the rehash.
But as far as starting out, I definately agree that the tone of many sounds as though after mounting a few specimens they're ready to start a "business". Personally I think that if anyone is in it for the money they're in it for the wrong reasons. I have always been interested in fish & game mounts, but never considered getting into doing it myself until I saw the WASCO classified in the back of Field & Stream; then I put two & two together and realized that I could try to learn the art. But it was when I visited my local taxidermist with some birds that I REALLY saw the light. I saw the equipment and techniques that he used, which piqued my interest, and I thought to myself, "I can do this!". But the most important turning point was the realization that I can do it BETTER. It was my dissatisfaction with certain techniques I saw (brush painting a Wood Duck bill & legs with Testors) and unltimately the results that made me realize that with my (painstaking) attention to detail and perfectionist ways I should be able to produce mounts that I could be satisfied with. Of course my first duck attempts were horrendous, in fact I went against the recommendations and started with a duck as my first mount ever, but I learned a heck of alot...such as pin feathers and taxidermy don't mix! I just wanted to learn in order to produce mounts for myself, because I have a goal of shooting & having mounted specimens of all of the major US duck species, and I figured I would get more satisfaction out of doing them myself than paying $150 a pop for someone else to do them (I guess I did get into it for the money!) If I get good enough to the point where I am proud of my work, and people agree, then maybe I would get into the business side of things....but that is certainly not a driving force.
Getting a little closer to the theme of this discussion, I think part of the problem is that you (we) are dealing with a wide spectrum of "types" of beginners: you have those who are like me, determined to learn and become good regardless of what it takes, and those who may only be mildly interested and just want to see what is involved with doing taxidermy (i.e. may not seriously pursue it) before laying down the necessary $$ for the manuals, videos, etc. The obvious paradox that this forum creates is that it invites people to learn, but it also makes them lazy: why 1) experiment on several specimens with various techniques to "see what happens" or 2) spend money on a manual that takes a few days to arrive when they can type a question and get the answers handed to them. The best learning tool that I first used was the WASCO catalog - with all of the products catagorized by field (fish, bird, mammal, etc.) and in many cases detailed instructions on their use, it was easy to learn what went into mounting the things that I was interested in. For what it's worth, you may want to try recommending this first step to many of the "beginning" beginners so they have a better feel for what is involved first and then can ask more informed questions.
Anyway, I just want you guys to know that I symathize 100% with your position and appreciate everything that you put into these forums for the wide spectrum of users. Maybe I will try to start stepping in and helping some of the neophytes start in the right direction.
This response submitted by Bill on 2/7/1999. ( yoxtax@aol.com )
You hit the nail on the head a COUPLE of times! I see the guys go from asking a question to answering them as a necessary step for this forum to grow, plus YOU can get some practice by answering some of those aforementioned postings! Ha ha ha...Also, as you say we encounter all types of beginners we also host all types of "experts" too. We really are just contributors, not know-it-alls, even when our tone implies otherwise...
This response submitted by Leanna on 2/8/1999. ( scardeer@cornernet.com )
Sung to the Alanis tune of course! Im feeling guilty just soaking up all the extremely helpful input from all you guys and letting you know how its appreciated. I'm a mom. I know what a thankyou means and how (after the shock of one wears off and I can close my slackened jaw again enough to speak) that I'm happier to help even more! This site is my reward to myself after a day of fleshing and salting and shaving and swearing and taxi-ing and slicing (fingers)and did I mention swearing?! Lets throw in all those interuptions of running upstairs (constantly?) of getting kids snacks,stopping fights,ect. and hearing "are your hands clean" before I'm allowed to do anything for them!! Anyway REALLY would like you to know, that after a long day its very relaxing to read and continue learning from what you guys have to offer. Come 9:00 or so, if the jobs done, its either Breakthrough, referenc books, or the forums. And of course a few cold ones! I feel I'm not quite ready to offer much yet, but I'm always here soaking it all up, so THANKS MUCHLY. Leanna
This response submitted by SANDY on 2/8/1999. ( Sandy.Meyers@coastalcorp.com )
My 15 year old son is interested in a career in Taxidermy, so here I am trying to dig up some info for him. I found that we have a school for taxidermy here in Michigan, which is great. I would like to encourage my son to pursue his dream, but after reading your stories I wonder if its worth it. How much of a demand is there for this service, how competitive is it, and can he ever make enough money to make a living at it?
This response submitted by Turtle on 2/9/1999. ( mooretr@in-arng.ngb.army.mil )
Man what a response. I thought you guys were sleeping. Guess not! I think I even woke up some that I have not seen on the forum before. That's great. A lot of valuable input. I had no idea I was going to stir up so much interest.
Thanks for the offer John C. I might just take you up on that offer if I can get away from work for a few days. I'll e-mail you and we can talk some war stories. I did not mean to make anyone mad with my response, I just wanted to bring it to everyone's attention that a lot of us that have had our interests sparked by the art of taxidermy are hungry for knowledge. And never before has so much information been so readily available. I'm not very subtle sometimes, and I tend to react too quickly when responding to stimuli. I guess I am a little impatient also. Oh, did I mention that I am very headstrong (bullheaded) too.
I really appreciate the help from everyone. But you know what? After all this wonderful exchange, nobody has answered a question from a couple days ago concerning the copyrighting of logos. It was not my question, however, I was interested in knowing the answer. Bill responded, but he really did not answer the question.
There again, I was probably not very subtle. And I might even seem un-appreciative, but that is not the case. I was just opening my eyes and didn't want to ask a question that had already been asked.
Thanks again guys and gals (forgot to include gals at the beginning, sorry girls) and I'll be getting in touch with you Mr. Creager. Oh and another thing, I am entering the Association of Indiana Taxidermists, and am entering 2 deer heads in their competition next month.
This response submitted by Bill on 2/9/1999. ( yoxtax@aol.com )
I think I posted two answers there and I answered your logo question, or at least someones question about logos. I said if you use someone elses you'd have to buy it, etc. That was ME! Check out the post again. Hope that helps you headstrung sonofagun, you!
This response submitted by Bob C on 2/10/1999. ( bobswildlife@webtv.net )
Sandy, Its nice to know your son has a supportive mother. More important than a suportive wife, because he will grow to be SOMEBODY with that support. I would make sure your son gets a good education. He should have something to fall back on if the taxidermy dosen't work out. There is a demand for GOOD taxidermists out there. So keep supporting him,but let him treat it as a hobby until he gets a proper education. He couuld attend a taxidermy school in the summer when most kids dont even think about school. Bob C
This response submitted by Sandy on 2/10/1999. ( Sandy.Meyers@coastalcorp.com )
Thanks for the extremely valuable advice guys. I'll give him another year, and if he still has the same level of interest that he has now, I will send him to taxidermy school. However, I have told him that this will not be a substitute for college, only in addition to it. Even if the taxidermy does not work out as a career, I know it is something that he will enjoy doing on the side, so the money spent on the school won't be wasted. Thanks again for your encouragement. Be looking for Jason in the future, I'm sure you'll be hearing from him once he gets connected to the net!
This response submitted by Sandy on 2/10/1999. ( Sandy.Meyers@coastalcorp.com )
Thanks for the extremely valuable advice guys. I'll give him another year, and if he still has the same level of interest that he has now, I will send him to taxidermy school. However, I have told him that this will not be a substitute for college, only in addition to it. Even if the taxidermy does not work out as a career, I know it is something that he will enjoy doing on the side, so the money spent on the school won't be wasted. Thanks again for your encouragement. Be looking for Jason in the future, I'm sure you'll be hearing from him once he gets connected to the net!
This response submitted by Perry on 2/11/1999. ( pgk@ncentral.com )
Jason,
Good Luck in your future endeavors. We'all is pullen' fer ya.
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