I've done a lot of snow geese and several swans over many years and keep encoutering a nagging problem. After skinning and defatting, I wash all my birds skins in detergent to remove blood, dirt and grime and then, at least for most of my waterfowl, in white gas for degreasing, before tumbling dry. I've noticed that on my snow geese, after this process and in some cases without the degreasing wash, I always have portions of the feathers, in particular the coverlet feathers over the wing/body joint, take on a yellow tint. This has occurred with a number of different laundry detergents, Biz and soft soaps like Woolite. This yellowing is not any kind of staining, and most other feathers on the skin come out snowy white. In most cases, it's not that noticable and I've not had clients complain, but I find it disturbing and can't figure out the cause or how to wash the skin without having the yellowing appear. I never encounter this problem with birds that have patches of white, like baldpate or hooded mergansers, which is why I'm thinking it may have something to do with the characteristics of specific feather groups. I know that among the vast participants in this forum, many of you may be able to tell me what I've done wrong all these years and how to fix it! Thanks much for the help. I have a nice swan that I'll be getting to in the near future, so would like to solve this problem.
Return to Bird Taxidermy Category Menu
First, white gas does not really degrease; it evacuates the water left on the bird after your final rinse. The yellowing is also not Dawn liquid detergent. White geese and swans feed mainly in rice/wheat fields. They feed not on the seeds alone, but on the tender shoots as they emerge. This is why they do so much damage to crops and farmers want them hunted and gone ! When they digest this matter it is basically still in it's very green form and upon expulsion from their bodies, it gets on the feathers. Since geese roost on water, a lot of it gets "washed" off each night, but over time they take on a yellowy green tint. also, when they are shot they expell whatever is in their bowels; either conciously or once dead.
The best product, and i'm sure i'll get a lot of argument on this, is
Stain Away from King's Taxidermy Supply - 800-488-3337. You must clean the bird really well as usual. After your last rinse, take about one cup of stain away to three-five gallons of water. Mix it well. Place the bird in this solution for five to twenty minutes - depending on the size of the bird. BE CAREFUL with this product. If you leave it too long, you will get a bird with a very rubbery often inflexible skin. I would suggest on snows and ross's about 8-10 minutes and remove the head and neck of the goose after about 2 minutes of constant agitation. DO NOT LEAVE THE HEAD/NECK area of ANY BIRD MORE THAN A COUPLE OF MINUTES. The first time I used it I ruined a bird. Luckily, I took the advice of the person who recommended this product and tried it on a disgard bird. The next time I used it, I got a Ross's goose that looksalmost pearl it is so white ! Try it and good luck to you.
We won't beat your dead horse gasoline wash today, but what you are encountering seems to be what I call "flash burn". When you use a soap with a higher pH, you stand the chance of "burning" those white feathers. The higher the pH, the higher the chance. Once you wash your bird, you need to RINSE them with lots of water to remove all vestiges of the soap from the feathers. Just the most minute amount will burn your feathers. Also, make sure you mix the soap BEFORE you wash the bird. If you actually pour the soap directly on the bird before you add water, you also greatly improve those chances.
George is WRONG - as usual - Clint is correct, although I've never used that product. BUT, liquid soap WILL NOT burn feathers ! NEVER HAPPEN ! I pour dawn directly on every bird I've ever done, and I've done over 1,000 birds, and not once has the soap ever burned the feathers to a point you could see any form of discoloration. The gas argument is truely an old one. It will cause some detached grease to fall to the bottom of the container, but it really only evacuates any water left on the bird. Try the stain away - I'm going to !
What you are seeing is mainly on feathers which are exposed to the sun, right? For example, the ones nearby which are normally overlapped and protected are much whiter than the upper ones. If the bird happens to have a new feather growing in it will look snowy white by comparison.
It's called feather reduction ... or just plain old wear and tear.
The feathers can really look yellow in the wash water but dry to almost white so it is not too noticeable. Hard water stains are usually on the face and underside. Stain remover will work on them, but it won't cure feather reduction.
White feathers are weaker than dark ones so they wear out quicker, particularly on the edges.
Nancy M.
Not THAT should make you an expert. Let me think here, by about 1970 I had probably done 1000 birds. Even blind pigs sometimes find an acorn. I hope you don't come across one anytime soon, but if you think HIGH pH soaps won't burn white feathers, you're dumber than you sound.
Sorry George - I forgot that you know EVERY FREAKING THING THERE IS TO KNOW ABOUT TAXIDERMY ! My mistake ! Please, anybody stupid enough to think freakin' soap burns anything is a total simpleton. Moron !
Sorry for being a smart A$$ but when soap gets in my eyes it burns. Just had to say it LOL
Would those of you who helped during the testing of Epo-Grip Bloodout/Degreaser and experienced the "yellowing of feathers on white feathered birds" please explain to this pinhead Einstein how leaving skins unattended in the product turned your birds yellow? Course, he's probably been working on roadkilled crows his whole life and wouldn't believe you anyway.
Okay, I may not hold a Ph.D. in avian taxidermy, but I do hold one in bio-chemisty.. so here goes. George you are 100% correct, feathers will "burn" or discolor in a substrate with a higher Ph than say normal river water.
ALL birds have a coating of protective oil on their feathers, we all should know this, Once that layer is removed from the acutal feather, it becomes quite ill-resistant to foriegn combatants. Also keep in mind that feathers are the residual product after living cells have died. and for those of us rich enough to send our wives to the plastic surgeon for a face peel know that living and dead epidermal tissue can be "burned" or removed with a substrate with a PH. Ie acid peel.
So to answer the question, Dawn dishwashing liquid, however small does carry a higher PH level than say water. If TOO MUCH is used, or too long a time was used, and lets say the feathers are WHITE where there is no pigment to cover any disprecancies, then yes, you could notice a slight discoloration, or "burning," of the feathers. ONce these featers are "burned," there will be no true way to remove the coloration. The chemical reaction has physicallyh changed the structure of the dead cells and there will be no way to wash this away. The key thing is to not let your feathers discolor in the first place. Try adding sea salt to you water baths, that should lower the ph. Also, use distilled water when washing white birds, So local municipalities are allowed to carry a higher ph on their drinking water than you'd think. And yes I know this stupid, but I do it.... after washing in dawn, or Epo-Grip... whatever your heart may desire, rinse the white bird in a bucket full of milk. This will neutralize the acid in the soap on contact. THEN YOU MUST rinse your bird again in distilled water. Even the slightest bit of soap left in the plumage will continue to discolor....it must be removed.
as the majority of birds that we mount aren't white, we probalby wouldn't notice this reaction to much, however, even on a velvet scoter, you can "burn," the feathers, but it would be highly unlikely that you'd ever notice.
Sorry to have rambled on this long, but I cant stand it when people bash "our elders," Although I carry a PhD in biochemisty, nothing that I ever leaned in a book was as ever as valuable to what I have learned through experience. That being said, I would hope the whippersnappers that frequent this site, will pay heed to those of you (myself NOT included) that have earned the right to know "EVERY FREAKING THING THERE IS KNOW ABOUT TAXIDERMY!"
Good day and Semper Fi!
Jon
Before you even begin skinning a snow goose or the swan, pull out one clean, dry, otherwise typical feather with the same amount of wear as the others around it. Save it and compare it to the adjacent feathers on the bird after you are finished washing and drying it.
If you can see any difference then you may indeed have a problem, but I don't think you will.
A snow goose is not as white as you may think. Compared to a white pigeon they look more like a pale ivory color.
I didn't know WHY they turned yellow, but I sure had a canary snow goose when I let one soak overnight just for testing purposes.
Thanks for helping clear this up Jon, but I think you meant to say that the milk would help neutralize the basicity of the soap not the acidity. Soaps have a pH higher than 7 and so are considered basic while acids have a pH lower than 7. I'm sure YOU knew what you were trying to say but it may have confused others. I had this debate several months ago on here with George (Nancy did too) and George was adamant that the super high pH of the Epo-Grip products did no harm to bird skins and were much better degreasers than milder household products. George, I bet a prolonged soak in Dawn or a laundry detergent wouldn't have turned your snow goose into a "canary". But that's just my opinion.
SOAP DOES NOT TURN FEATHERS YELLOW ! PERIOD ! Maybe if you soaked it in a VERY high Ph for a week or so you might get some discoloration, but otherwise - what's in your water out there George. And really, we don't need a biochemist to tell us what does and does not happen to a bird. How many birds have YOU mounted chemistry man !? WE all understand the laws of chemistry - sometimes a formula doesn't work like it is supposed to on paper ! It's called LIFE ! GET ONE !
Slim,
To answer your question, I have mounted enough birds to know and understand the topic question. So lets just see, I've been doing taxidermy now going on 21 years, and never once have I touched a mammal or a fish.... so how many birds does that add up to? Not every bird is going to turn yellow, I agree, but not every feather on a bird is the same. Put an executive and a ditchdigger shirtless in the Sahara and see who's skin lasts the longest...
I myself have had atleast two snow geese yellow to some degree, and was told by mr Rummans himself that "I should be very careful," when washing my swan pelt, that white birds tend to yellow in a normal bath. I even completely turned a GW teal blonde when I left it soaking too long in dawn and thought I had time to go to the grocery
store.
So yes I agree it IS LIFE, bertter yet, it's Nature.
As far as getting a life, I honestly wish I could, instead of defending myself against people like you.
Good day!
Jon
P.S> Paul, I stand corrected, you are 100% right as a general rule, a soap will carry a higher Ph than water, which by the laws of chemistry make that a basic solution. Which in some cases, can be just as distructive as a lower Ph.
One of these day's I'll learn not to reply here at 2 in the morning.... hehe
Jon
Paul, you're absolutley right, I DID say that, didn't I. Well, I've learned my lesson the hard way (as usual) and I definitely watch how long the birds stay in the soap.
Now, as for you Slim, these are YOUR words: "Please, anybody stupid enough to think freakin' soap burns anything is a total simpleton. Moron." BURN may have been an inappropriate term, but the effect was certainly the same. We ALL now know your credibility on any opinion and trying to tapdance with brogans on isn't cute. Next time your alligator mouth overloads your hummingbird butt, learn to keep it shut.
I don't use Dawn, I prefer Ivory Liquid. I skin 4-5 birds at once and take fat out, then in the bath they go, using Ivory Liquid.Then I put bucket in refrigerator, for 3-5 days, just above freezing. Then I always have a bird to dry and mount at the end of the day. I have never had a snow,or ross turn any color but white, although as Nancy said, some have worn out feathers when you put them in the bath. I also have never made a G/W teal turn blonde. That's just how I've done birds, for 25 years.
Tim
We're talking WHITE birds here. And I don't know how this "experience" got into the equation. Guess Slim started that too. I've seen guys doing birds for 50 years and they still look like crap. Experience isn't a very good teacher for those who lack talent. Amy Ritchie is 15 or 16 and she's already doing work much better than I and a whole lot of others, so let's stop using that crap.
George, wasn't even talking experience, just another way to keep birds white, in fact I was not even speaking to, or about you, you already gave your thoughts, did you not. Tim
If you only get one posting per thread, guess you're one over too, now. I didn't catch how a green winged teal got into "keeping white birds white" discussion.
In Jon's responce, Laws of Chemistry, he mentioned turning a GW teal blonde, after leaving it to long in a Dawn bath.I said nothing about more than one posting per thread.George, you really need to relax a little on a Sunday afternoon. Take a chill, and read these responces a little closer,(LOL)B/4 you attack(LOL). By George
Sorry! Thanx Tim.
Dr. Jon, nice posts. I've heard some quick soaks in Oxy White will really brighten up a white bird. Can any of you folks verify this.
Thanks.
Wow, I didn't check back to my question for a week or so and really enjoyed the discussion. Lots of good hypotheses (I happen to be a scientist by vocation, taxidermist by avocation!), so I can certainly follow Jon's argument. I really like Nancy M.'s idea, since that will be a real check on whether my washing is a problem or whether what I'm seeing is natural. Next up is the swan, so I'll work through these responses and come up with a plan, and then report to everyone how it came out (with Nancy M.'s feather as my control sample!)
Bill,
Not a taxidermist, but did have a yellowed white peacock mount. Applied a 40% hair bleach solution (ask a salon) to most of bird with a wide artist's brush (tail too), and washed. Timing and technique may vary, but worked for me. White on white and quite nice.