Church Fires Teacher for Being Female

Submitted by C&P on 8/21/06 at 4:01 PM. ( ) 64.12.116.200

WATERTOWN, N.Y. (Aug. 21) - The minister of a church that dismissed a female Sunday School teacher after adopting what it called a literal interpretation of the Bible says a woman can perform any job - outside of the church.

The First Baptist Church dismissed Mary Lambert on Aug. 9 with a letter explaining that the church had adopted an interpretation that prohibits women from teaching men. She had taught there for 54 years.

The letter quoted the first epistle to Timothy: "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent."

The Rev. Timothy LaBouf, who also serves on the Watertown City Council, issued a statement saying his stance against women teaching men in Sunday school would not affect his decisions as a city leader in Watertown, where all five members of the council are men but the city manager who runs the city's day-to-day operations is a woman.

"I believe that a woman can perform any job and fulfill any responsibility that she desires to" outside of the church, LaBouf wrote Saturday.

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Baptist

This response submitted by Rae on 8/21/06 at 4:40 PM. ( ) 207.200.116.74

Key WOrd there is Baptist.. Half my family is Baptist, Other half Pentacostal.. (sp)
My mothers side is the Baptist side and that part about women must be silent, basicaly is how Baptists do it. Back in Texas the women in my family wear no make up, dresses that must be modest, no jeans allowed, arms covered, showing of body basically. AND they dont work, they stay home, cook, clean, raise babies and wait on the men..
Lets just say Im not of the Baptist faith LOL I respect it, but just cant give up my jeans LOL
I still think its wrong that they waited 54 years to decide to "follow" the interpitation of the bible. Seems more like maybe they wanted a replacement and found a way to get rid of the poor woman.


What a crock

This response submitted by DaveT on 8/21/06 at 5:54 PM. ( ) 24.32.87.64

I am an active member of a Southern Baptist Church and have been in several throughout the years. At no time were women ever keep from teaching Sunday School, childrens church, speaking during services, etc. The above generalization is shallow and not very factual.

Dave Toms


Dave

This response submitted by Rae on 8/21/06 at 6:11 PM. ( ) 207.200.116.74

THat "generalization" as you call it is fact. That is exactly how my family behaves. They are in church faithfully, and I have 4 ministers in my family. Perhaps its different when you are raised that way versa coming into the church?
At any rate it isnt a debate about the religion so much as it was a comment made about that poor women being fired for so called Literal Bible readings.. Youd think THAT would make you comment more than my family's lifestyle. She puts in 54 years and gets fired? That just isnt fair.


Was the woman Pretty or UGLY?

This response submitted by LMFAO on 8/21/06 at 6:43 PM. ( ) 69.171.240.121

I could understand an "image" problem. PRETTY only need to apply!LMFAO


"A house divided can not stand"

This response submitted by I can not lie... George Washington on 8/21/06 at 6:56 PM. ( ) 70.151.33.134

I will only say that there are more kinds of Baptist including Southern Baptist splinter variations than you can shake a stick at. I am very familiar to what Rae speaks of. Depends on the geographical location and the individual church it seems. There is more to this BUT it seems that the church took the easy way out by quoting biblical scripture, instead of just spelling it out for the lady. She was 81 BTW.


http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/08/21/menonly.sundayschool.ap/index.html

http://www.newzjunky.com/sounds/060821paulharvey.mp3

http://wwnytv.net/72k/full-story.asp?uid=12074&area=home+page


ONLY YOUNG & PRETTY NEED APPLY

This response submitted by LMFAO on 8/21/06 at 6:59 PM. ( ) 69.171.240.121

Religious hypocrites! Interpet what they want and what feels good and gives control to only a select few. TWIST the Bible to suit their needs.


My 2cents

This response submitted by Jim Marsico on 8/21/06 at 8:40 PM. ( ) 63.227.248.125

Please remember that people will almost ALWAYS fail and Christ himself hand picked Judas as a apostle who then spent the next 3 years by his side and personally whitnessed his miracles, heard all his sermons in person and still fell away and failed. THIS DOES NOT MEAN the message and mission of Christ were and are not 100% correct. Some preachers will fail us, priests do and we also sometimes fail ourselves. CHRIST DID NOT FAIL and WILL NOT. DO NOT use someone elses failure or even slip as your poor excuse to ignore "THE GOOD NEWS." In your heart you know that is wrong thinking because IT IS.


BTW on age

This response submitted by Jim Marsico on 8/21/06 at 8:47 PM. ( ) 63.227.248.125

My mom is coming out from California the first week of September to again (she comes every year) bow hunt with her long bow mule deer with me in the Bighorn Mtns here in Wyoming. She is either 87 or 88, she can still climb mountains and could still give me spanking.


Judas was ASKED to BETRAY JESUS

This response submitted by One on 8/21/06 at 8:51 PM. ( ) 69.171.240.121

That was his assignment given to him by Jesus? What do you think Jim Marsico? Do you have proof that he was not asked to do this?
The evidence points to the facts that he was part of the plan and was asked to betray..


B.S.

This response submitted by Jim Marsico on 8/21/06 at 9:40 PM. ( ) 63.227.248.125

Where does this kind of garbage come from? I won't even waste my time with such nonsense. Its leads nowhere except to further to BS questions. Same person will think conspiracy on every fact of history and want to argue about it. Waste of time.


The Gospel of Judas Book

This response submitted by LMFAO on 8/21/06 at 9:59 PM. ( ) 69.171.240.121

The Gospel of Judas Book

Published for the first time since it was condemned as heresy by early church leaders, the Gospel of Judas is told from the perspective of Judas Iscariot, history's ultimate traitor. However, the Judas that emerges in this volume is a hero, not a villain. The gospel has been translated from its original Coptic into clear prose and is accompanied by commentary that explains its fascinating history in the context of the early church, offering a whole new way of understanding the message of Jesus Christ. Hardcover. 5 1/4'' x 8''. 192 pages © 2006


Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John make up the four accepted Gospels of the Christian New Testament. Now a new gospel has been unveiled by the National Geographic Society -- one that focuses on the story of Judas Iscariot.
To most Christians, Judas is seen as a traitor, the disciple who betrayed Jesus to the Romans for 30 pieces of silver. But a newly restored papyrus document dating to the 2nd century AD portrays a very different man. Judas is shown as Jesus' best friend, asked by Jesus himself to betray his identity to fulfill the prophecy and liberate his soul to ascend to heaven.

The story of how this gospel was found, and the international effort to authenticate, conserve, and translate it, has been chronicled in the new book by Herb Krosney called The Lost Gospel.

The leather-bound papyrus codex, believed to have been translated from the original ancient Greek to the Coptic language around 300 AD, was found in the 1970s in a cave in the desert near El Minya, Egypt. It then circulated among antiquities traders, moving from Egypt to Europe to the United States. The codex languished in a safe deposit box on Long Island, N.Y., for 16 years before being bought in 2000 by Zurich-based antiquities dealer Frieda Nussberger-Tchacos.

When attempts to resell the manuscript fell through, Tchacos -- alarmed by the codex's rapidly deteriorating state -- transferred it to the Maecenas Foundation for Ancient Art in Basel, Switzerland, in February 2001 for conservation and translation.

Rodolphe Kasser, one of the world's leading Coptic scholars, was recruited to reconstruct the manuscript and to transcribe and translate the text. The 66-page manuscript contains not only the Gospel of Judas but also a text titled James (also known as First Apocalypse of James), a letter of Peter to Philip and a fragment of a fourth text scholars for now are calling the Book of Allogenes.

The National Geographic Society unveiled the only known copy of the Gospel of Judas on Thursday. The full story of the discovery and restoration of the Gospel of Judas can be seen on the National Geographic Channel. The first showing is Sunday, April 9, at 8 PM ET.
Additionally, the Gospel of Judas is featured on the May cover of National Geographic magazine. Pages of the codex will be on display at the National Geographic Society, and will eventually reside at the Coptic Museum in Cairo, Egypt.

Q&A: Herb Krosney, Author of 'The Lost Gospel'

A page from the restored gospel begins: "The secret account of the revelation that Jesus spoke in conversation with Judas Iscariot during a week, three days before he celebrated Passover." National Geographic Society © 2006


As part of a ongoing series of conversations with leading researchers and explorers for the Radio Expeditions co-production with the National Geographic Society, Day to Day host Alex Chadwick talks with Herb Krosney, author of The Lost Gospel, a new book about how the Gospel of Judas was found, and the international effort to authenticate, conserve, and translate it:

Question: Herb Krosney, what is in this lost gospel about Judas? What does it say about Judas Iscariot?
Answer: Judas is actually in a totally revised relationship to Jesus. He is Jesus' favorite disciple -- he is the person who enables Jesus to reach the heavens, and he himself is a star in the sky, according to the words of Jesus.

Q: This is not the Judas Iscariot that we know from the Bible. In the Bible, Judas betrays Jesus, but this gospel tells a different story -- Judas' version of what happened. How is it different? What does he say?
A: First of all, Judas and Jesus are meeting in some nether land possibly after the Resurrection. There's no direct mention of the Resurrection. Judas is a different kind of character. He's the person who is asked to make the ultimate sacrifice. And that sacrifice is to sacrifice the life of Jesus in order that Jesus may attain eternity and immortality. And Judas is the one who enables all of us to help find that inner spark within ourselves. I think that the gospel of Judas Iscariot is actually a very reverent document coming from approximately the 2nd century -- well after the four gospels accepted as the canonical gospels were actually written. We don't really know 100 percent that it's Judas' account. We know that a writer in the 2nd century told this story, which is the story of the encounter between Judas Iscariot and Jesus some time after the Resurrection. Judas is actually Jesus' best friend. Judas is the one who enables Jesus to fulfill his mission -- to die and to release that inner spark within himself and within all of us that is the divine. And that is the concept of this absolutely rare 2nd-century document, which is just coming to light.

Q: Jesus in this account instructs Judas to betray him?
A: Yes... and it's implied in some words in the actual canonical Testament -- but in here, it's quite explicit. Jesus is asking Judas to make the ultimate sacrifice -- to sacrifice himself -- and to enable Jesus to fulfill his mission on Earth.

Q: This gospel is written on papyrus, this ancient Egyptian form of paper. It probably dates from about the year 300 (AD). How was it re-discovered? It lay hidden for about 1,700 years?
A: First of all, we believe that it was buried in a burial cave in a place called Kararra, which is on the eastern side of the Nile. It was discovered by some peasants and it was sold to a dealer in Cairo and made the journey from Kararra... Then it began a really incredible 30-year journey which I've tried to trace through the world of antiquities dealers -- people not really knowing what it was, and all the time in a state of constant progressing deterioration.

Q: People didn't know what it was, because it's written in this ancient Coptic language. And even though they knew that had a valuable ancient document, they didn't know how valuable.
A: The first value assigned by the dealer was $3 million -- and $3 million in the early 1980s was an awful lot of money. It may seem a little bit less today, but not much less. It was an unheard-of sum among people who wanted to buy it, and there were people who wanted buy it up until 1983 and 1984.

Q: But they were just buying an ancient document. They didn't know that this was the gospel of Judas?
A: That is correct. They didn't know it was the gospel of Judas. It was not really identified as the gospel of Judas until the year 2000.

Q: That's when a Swiss dealer actually bought it out of a bank vault out on Long Island, which is quite a long story of how it got there, but it lay there for about 16 years. She takes it to Yale and a scholar there says: "This is an unbelievable discovery. I can read this -- it says on the last page, 'This is the gospel of Judas.'"
A: Actually, a scholar in 1983 in Geneva -- also a Yale PhD -- had looked at it, and he had seen the word Judas, but he didn't think it was Judas Iscariot, he thought it was another Judas, Judas Thomas. [That] would have more or less correlated with an earlier find called the Na Kamari, which had been discovered in Egypt in 1945. But this document was absolutely unique, and it is the only remaining testament that we know of a document that was originally written in the 2nd century.

Q: And how do the scholars actually know this is authentic, was really written in the 2nd century? Because there's been so many forgeries, there's so much more to be made from these dealings and things -- how do we know?
A: St. Irenaeus, who lived in the city that is now Lyon, France, wrote a condemnation of this particular document in the year 180 AD -- so we know that original document written in Greek was a valid document -- [that it] was in currency in the early Christian world. It was part of disputes that were flaming within early Christianity.

Q: But there was such a thing as the gospel of Judas?
A: There absolutely was. What we have is a Coptic copy of that Greek original document. Greek and Coptic are written with the same essential lettering but the document had deteriorated considerable. The calligraphy was such that it was almost inevitably judged at first sight by the experts to be a genuine document. At National Geographic, as soon as we got our hands on it, we set up a filming date near Geneva, Switzerland. We filmed the document being examined. Carbon 14 dating estimated this document as coming from an average year of 280, give or take 60 years on either side

Q: How are Biblical scholars going to regard this document? I mean, I guess that's going to be the subject for a while because these translations are new... But how is this going to change our understandings of early Christianity?
A: I think that the gospel of Judas -- the lost gospel -- opens up quite a bit more of the history of the 2nd and 3rd centuries, where we really do not know a lot about early Christianity. Early Christianity was a very diverse movement. The split from Judaism was just occurring. There were remnants from Jewish messianism. We see it to some extent in the gospel of Judas -- we see a whole potential history beginning to unfold, one that we have not really been able to appreciate because the 2nd and 3rd centuries have remained in considerable obscurity over the years.

Q: The gospel's been translated now, it's still in the process of conservation, most of it is kind of stabilized. What will happen to the gospel? Where's it going to go?
A: The gospel first off will be made available for viewing by the public. There's going to be an exhibition that National Geographic is mounting which will also feature aspects of 2nd and 3rd century history and the whole history of how Christianity split from Judaism and evolved into a separate and distinct religion. At the end of the day, the Maecenas Foundation in Switzerland -- which is the owners of the document -- will be donating the document to the government of Egypt, which is where it was found, and will be housed eventually in the Coptic museum in Cairo.

Q: Could you read something from the gospel?
A: (reading) "The star that leads the way is your star, Jesus said to Judas... You will exceed all of them for you will have sacrificed the man that clothes me."

Q: Meaning you will ... turn me over to the Romans, and they will crucify me and my spirit will move from the body -- my soul...
A:What he means, as the scholars interpret it, is the soul of Jesus will be liberated from the body that entraps him. His soul is now liberated to come to heaven.

Q: Herb, how do you know that this document that you have is authentic?
A: There's been a process -- first of all, scientific dating, such as carbon dating, which has established the age of the papyrus. We've also at done tests [at National Geographic] on the ink [in which] it was written, and it corresponds with the ink that was [used] at the time. And various calligraphers and philologists that have looked at the document -- some who are among the greatest in the world -- have looked at this, and have no doubt as to its authenticity.

Q: What did it look like when this Swiss woman finally got a hold of it? What kind of shape was it in? She opened these boxes and looked at it -- what did she see?
A: Well, by the time that the Swiss lady who purchased it got to it, it was really a mess. It was practically indecipherable. The pages had been molded and blended together so that it was an incredible job of restoration to separate out the pages. There were numerous fragments that had been floating around, and all of this became a jigsaw puzzle that the experts this great restorer... had to solve. And they worked for five years now, since the middle of the year 2001 up to now, getting this document back to something we can read.

Q: Herb, you're a writer, I know -- not a religious scholar. But can you foresee a time... when this gospel might be included in the New Testament?
A: I would really doubt that it might be included in the New Testament. In early Christianity, there were at least 30 potential gospels floating around, and there were dozens and dozens if not hundreds of original documents which were winnowed down at an early stage in the 3rd and 4th centuries which became the New Testament and the basis of the new religion called Christianity. I don't think that any apocryphal document will now be accepted in the canon of orthodox Christianity. But what this document does is it opens us up into a whole world of history that we had not been able to fully appreciate before, and it gives a new and different interpretation of both Judas and his relationship to Jesus.

Q: An apocryphal document?
A: Well, what was accepted as the canon of the New Testament was one thing, and there are many other documents floating around in early Christianity we can still read today [that] are documents of great interest, but are not accepted as divine revelation. And I think that probably -- almost undoubtedly -- the gospel of Judas, the lost gospel -- will fall into that second category.

Sealed With a Kiss
A long-lost early Christian text says Jesus asked Judas to betray him.
By David Gates
Newsweek
April 17, 2006 issue - Even Jesus recognized that there was something paradoxical about his betrayal by Judas Iscariot—in three of the four canonical Gospels, with a kiss. "And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined," he says in Luke 22, "but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!" In other words, Judas is damned for helping bring about the salvation of humankind. This is doctrinally explicable: in the working out of God's plan, some people get damned. But in human terms, it's as puzzling as that kiss—which either is gratuitously cruel (he could have just pointed) or suggests that the self-divided Judas is already having the seller's remorse that leads, in Matthew, to suicide. And Jesus knows all along who will sell him out. In John's account of the Last Supper, he tells Judas: "That thou doest, do quickly"—and Judas "went immediately out." In shame and terror, we assume. But it sounds almost as if he were obeying an order that both of them understood.
We've always known that there was a Gospel of Judas, which might clear some of this up. In the year 180, Irenaeus, a church father in Lyon who specialized in rooting out heresy, denounced it as "fictional." The Gospel was in vogue for a few hundred years, then disappeared from history—until last week. The National Geographic Society has just published a translation of the long-lost work, with a companion volume explaining its provenance and exploring its meaning. Actually, it's a translation of a translation: the scribe wrote in Coptic, circa 300, from a Greek original, surely lost forever. This Gospel tells us that Judas was Jesus' only true disciple, to whom he imparted secret mystic knowledge, and whom he asked to turn him in to the Romans, in order to free his spirit from its fleshly prison.
The story of the manuscript resembles an Indiana Jones movie—or, more to the point, a Dan Brown novel. (An unseen hand must have arranged for the Gospel of Judas to be published while the "Da Vinci Code" craze still had life in it.) The crumbling papyrus—13 sheets, in more than 1,000 fragments, written on both sides—was found in a cave in the Egyptian desert in the 1970s, passed from one antiquities dealer to another, and ended up in a safe-deposit box in Hicksville, N.Y. In 1983, scholar James M. Robinson, who created the team that restored the Nag Hammadi manuscripts—source of the similarly contrarian Gnostic Gospels—was told that the Gospel of Judas was up for sale in Geneva. He couldn't come up with the $3 million. In 2000, it was offered to Yale, which begged off; an Ohio dealer briefly stored it in a freezer. At last, its price reportedly down to $1 million, the manuscript ended up with the Maecenas Foundation for Ancient Art, which started restoration, translation and authentication.
Don't be expecting this fragmented manuscript to read like the King James. Small sample: " '[Truly] I say to you, [ ... ] angel [ ... ] power will be able to see that [ ... ] these to whom [ ... ] holy generations [ ... ]' After Jesus said this, he departed." And not a minute too soon. The secret wisdom Jesus confides—when he's not laying out a hierarchy of angels, gods and more gods that makes Hinduism sound minimalist—is a lot like that of the Gnostic Gospels, which posit a strict enmity between flesh and spirit. Judas' betrayal of Jesus has sparked considerable anti-Semitism over the centuries, and the new Gospel may help Christians see beyond ancient—and historically unfounded—stereotypes. Or it may simply add to our sense of how inchoate and multifarious early Christianity was, before such church fathers as Irenaeus codified it.


Jim...

This response submitted by Lou on 8/21/06 at 10:21 PM. ( ljabellman@hotmail.com ) 64.0.113.63

I have much respect for your intelligence, however, I must disagree. How do we come to the conclusion that the bible is factual when in fact they too were written hundreds of years after most events occurred, hand picked (canonized (SP), and copied by hand for hundreds of years by men who could, and some did, fail Christ? Short of having an original manuscript or traveling back in time, which neither are easily achieved :-), we will never know what's BS and what isn't until each of us face our deaths.

To not look new facts or ideas when making decisions leads to a closed mind. For example look at what the early church did to Galileo (SP). They rebuked and called him a heretic when he suggested that the earth revolved around the sun. Now we have science to tell us that we really do revolve around the sun. How bout the witch hunts? Modern medicine tells us that warts, birth marks, and such are not marks of beast, they're just marks. Understand I'm not saying that these facts should be used for folks to ignore the New Testament teaching, what I am saying is that they shouldn't be forgotten when one is told by a church to follow the church's commands and everything that is written is 100% fact and 100% literal.

It's up to your faith in a statement of truth, a truth that currently can only be verified and tested by the act of death. Problems arise when folks place their faith in a statement of truth without questions.


Kim: Gospel of Judas isTrash Gnosticism

This response submitted by Jim Marsico on 8/21/06 at 10:47 PM. ( ) 63.227.248.125

During the second and third centuries AD, various semi-Christian and non-Christian groups composed texts which are loosely labelled as New Testament Apocrypha, usually but not always in the names of apostles, patriarchs or other persons mentioned in the Old Testament, New Testament or older Jewish apocryphal literature [1]. The gospel of Judas is one of these texts and is so described by the only two references to it in antiquity.
Gnosticism is a term used to identify a common belief among various religious movements that likely originated in prehistory and became most active in the first few centuries AD. [citation needed] The key to understanding the core belief of these movements is provided by the term gnosis, a Greek word expressing a type of understanding/consciousness gained through personal experience. It is through this type of transcendental experience that followers of Gnostic belief systems ("Gnosticism") seek escape from ignorance.In his 2006 Easter address, Rowan Williams, the AGLICAN Archbishop of Canterbury, condemned the credibility of the Judas gospel, saying, "This is a demonstrably late text which simply parallels a large number of quite well-known works from the more eccentric fringes of the early century Church." He went on to suggest that the book's publicity derives from an insatiable desire for conspiracy theories:

We are instantly fascinated by the suggestion of conspiracies and cover-ups; this has become so much the stuff of our imagination these days that it is only natural, it seems, to expect it when we turn to ancient texts, especially biblical texts. We treat them as if they were unconvincing press releases from some official source, whose intention is to conceal the real story; and that real story waits for the intrepid investigator to uncover it and share it with the waiting world. Anything that looks like the official version is automatically suspect.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Judas And to Lee, History has volumes more factual evidence for the truth of Christs life on earth than we do for ANY other occurance in all of HISTORY. When you die and have to face judgement will you say "oh ,well I just wasn't sure enough and convinced enough to have any faith, look at so and so and those guys they claimed to be Christains and they were really buttholes." Well I say good luck you'll need it. If you don't want to believe in Christ or even try and understand its your own fault. People make mistakes and always will, "church" people are usually at the top of the list. Do not be fooled by this ancient trick of darkness. I know Christ is in my heart, and I try hard to always have him in my mind and on my lips. I sometimes fail which makes his factual presence in me and FOR me even that more important.


Jim, Show us the proof! Come on, anything!

This response submitted by LMFAO on 8/21/06 at 11:16 PM. ( ) 69.171.240.121

Here we have the ancient scripts, JUST as valuable and REAL as any other book in the Bible (you can touch and see the real thing) It is not in your imagination, and YOU want to pick and choose? What a hypocrite!

I suppose the book of ENOCH is explained away too? LOL


Sad thing is Jim, you THINK this is an

This response submitted by LMFAO at YOU on 8/21/06 at 11:23 PM. ( ) 69.171.240.121

..attack on Christ. It is NOT. You lack the ability to understand what the real information is. As long as you use the CRAP from your favorite, ever changing source, the "wikipedia.org" folks, you fall prey to the dark forces you preach about. Notice the name: WIKI. Better look that up. OH yes, you know all things and have a line to your "human" leaders...LMAO Religion for weak minds lead by MEN NOT by GOD.

Wait a minute...fell down laughing at the obvious...got back up and ...LMAO more! LOLOLOLOLOL...


Actually Jim, most theologians agree with Kim

This response submitted by George on 8/21/06 at 11:34 PM. ( georoof@aol.com ) 64.12.116.135

The Catholic church was originally the Church of Jerusalem. In that church, the liturgical doctrine of that particular time had many more books that the standard King James version. When the fine King became involved, translators were wise enough not to translate anything that might offend the good King (such as his multitude of wives and his history of murder).

When the Roman Catholic Church was formed from the Church of Jerusalem, the standard was that in order to be considered part of the "New Testament" a book must be canonized. The religious scholars of that time really weren't interested in the "common man" being told the whole story. If everyone knew all that the scholars did, what purpose would they serve and what would be the mystique of religion? The gospel of Judas was particularly galling to them.

At the time of Jesus, many men claimed to be the Savior as promised in the Old Testament. Since the entire story of a "second coming of the Lord" was so important to early Christians, many were followed. None of those individuals was able to conform to the bible, however. Jesus was the only one who carried the complete passion play to its conclusion. The gospel of Judas claimed that he'd betrayed Jesus because Jesus, himself, had asked him to. This was complete heresy to early scholars. If Jesus had, in fact, done that, then Judas could have been an accomplice in a scam. If he had NOT been told by Jesus to do it, then it implied that God was in control of everything in life. That too was just as dangerous. That would imply that a bad person could never be changed and that everything in life was preordained. That would make "religion" a useless aspect of life and that was certainly heretic. The implications by Judas also set in motion the possiblity that the denial of Jesus by Peter fit into the same category. Such Gnosticism was a danger to the Roman Catholic church and had to be squelched.

Realistically, however, would Judas' betrayal ever been pulled off by anyone other than Jesus' best friend? The Centurions would certainly be sceptical of just anyone giving up such a wanted person. The Pharisees certainly wanted the people to believe that they'd infiltrated the 12 and who would be a better example of that proof?

Another gospel, this one the protovangelist Gospel of James was not canonized. This one is particularly surprising to most religious scholars. The Gospel of James dealt with the life of Mary, the mother of Jesus. James was beheaded 100 years before the book was written (not unlike the other Gospels), but the story explains why the Roman Catholics always refer to Mary as the Virgin Mary even though the accepted gospels tell of her bearing at least 3 other children. The wonder of the story begins with Mary's own birth.

Her mother was barren and well past the age of conceiving. She prayed to the Lord every day for a child and when she was giving up hope, an angel appeared telling her that the Lord had heard her prayers. She was told that she would bear a special child; a virgin birth from God and the girl would be named Mary. This explanation would have filled all the gaps in modern day religion. James explains that Mary was born without sin simply because she was born to a woman who conceived from God. This child, in turn was later impregnated by God also so as to bear the Savior who was born without sin. (Remember now, he was born INTO sin, but without any himself) Only with this history, could the constant reference to Mary be explained in the Roman Catholic Church. Still, canonization was refused and the early Christian was expected to take the Virgin Mary on face value and not be gnostic about the situation that led to her conception of Jesus. Certainly no one was allowed to question her continuing to be the "Virgin Mary" after she'd had other children.

There are the Apochrypha that are also excluded from the modern bible. Fourteen of them are rejected by the Protestant churches while only 3 of them are rejected by the Roman Catholic church. Though they don't appear in the King James version, the Catholic's canonized books do appear in the Douay Bible.

The true story of the bible may never be known and it's probably just as well. That's why religion is considered a practice of FAITH. And that, dear people is the prime reason that neither politics nor religion belong on this site. Few of us know enough about either to speak sensibly and if we did, we're unlikely to change the beliefs of others who disagree with us. And that includes ME and Kim as well.


This is Kim and I agree with George!

This response submitted by KIM on 8/22/06 at 12:05 AM. ( ) 69.171.240.121

George did his homework. And I am proud to say that this man (George) is not afraid to research and learn. But I am sure his knowledge has come from his religious training and presonal study.

That is what the &%$# I have been trying to drill into each person that reads anything about TAXIDERMY or RELIGION or anything else.

Don't look for the short answers or take the easy way as so many try to. Research it! Feel it, experience it and come out more than a man and better yourself for the adventure!

I hope everyone feels in their heart the truth I have just written for all in this specific post.

May GOD bless those that he sees fit to do so. After all, we are the creation, not a monkey that can talk...


George...

This response submitted by Lou on 8/22/06 at 1:08 AM. ( ljabellman@hotmail.com ) 71.114.144.245

What a nice and informative read George! I'm glad you're here to share your wisdom.


that settles it

This response submitted by Mr.T on 8/22/06 at 8:59 AM. ( ) 68.79.167.32

so that's why they fired her.


Georges post has truth

This response submitted by Jim Marsico on 8/22/06 at 10:35 AM. ( ) 63.227.248.125

but also many errors. I have have done much study. I DO NOT take anything about religion on face value; I never have. Kim, you do or else you not be a JW. Georges post is straight from protestant seminar teaching and I could go on and on with every misleading or wrong point esp. about Mary but its all to easy to look up for anyone that wants to. FYI Wikipedi is nothing more than a free on line encyclopedia. WIKI's meaning is "everyone". Go to the JW site or the Catholic sites (I would love that) or the Luthern site, which will all have thier particular spins! I am just trying to point out a site with no spin ie. a estabished non religous encyclopedia. Sorry Kim if that concept is over your pointed little head. Here is gift for you that boils it all down for everyone and now you can never say nobody ever told you or you did not know: What is the purpose of life? The purpose of life is to KNOW God, to SEARVE God and to LOVE Gove in this life and forever in the life to come. Simple enough? Somehow I doudt it for some of you.


you all seem to have faith

This response submitted by Ken Walker on 8/22/06 at 11:51 AM. ( 780 924-3200 ) 161.184.196.220

Yet choose to differ on translation.Could the "devil be in the details"?


amen Ken

This response submitted by Jim Marsico on 8/22/06 at 12:20 PM. ( ) 63.227.248.125

now if I could only spell.


Apochrypha

This response submitted by DaveT on 8/22/06 at 1:15 PM. ( ) 24.32.87.64

The Apocrypha were never accepted by the early church as scripture, they were referred to as important historical writings and thus it was included in the Vulgate just as some info is included in modern books such as dictionaries, concordance, etc. The problem came some years after Christ death when the Roman Catholic Church included it in the Bible as scripture... thus we have a split and two books. Most of the Apocrypha were written during Old Testament times and are NOT accepted by the Jewish church itself. It really is not big deal as the Apocrypha really are just historical books and do not impact most theology.

The Gnostic junk is a totally different animal. They were never accepted by any of the early churches and they were not written by any of the witnesses, apostles or followers of Christ but by a group or sect of Jews long after the death of Christ. They have never been accepted by the early church; in fact they were considered heresy. There is plenty of literature on both.

DaveT


Jim, your assumption is flawed

This response submitted by George on 8/22/06 at 1:27 PM. ( ) 152.163.100.204

What I said is NOT from "Protestant" teaching. The theology I studied was tied to no secular religion at all, but rather the antiquities and the Dead Sea Scrolls. I wouldn't expect a Catholic to support the Gospel of James as to do so would be heresy as the book was not canonized. Same with the 3 Apochrypha as well as the Gospel of Judas. Much like Benedict Arnold, to portray anything he ever did in a positive light was concided sacrilegious by the Church. As I plainly stated, I wouldn't expect you to agree with some of the things there. It's not part of your belief and none of us wants our beliefs tromped on by the scintilla of possibilities of truth being involved. Can any of you imagine what you might be thought of if you were taken back into time and drove up to Daniel Boone's cabin with an SUV equipped with a VCR? You'd be either a witch or an angel. Throughout time immemorial, "religion" of all pursuastions have existed on the "believers" and rejected those whose ideas differed. The Catholic Church even calls itself THE Church, when in effect, it bears no semblance of the Church of Jerusalem where Christianity began. Protestants of all pursuasions have only slightly differing attitudes with the Episcopal and the Lutheran being so close in liturgy and festival that the three have often shared services. By the original bible, the Jews are God's people, but that certainly brings no quarter in today's world. I suppose God has a sense of humor. Otherwise he'd have cleaned the slate of us eons ago.


I know he has a sense of humor

This response submitted by Jim Marsico on 8/22/06 at 1:53 PM. ( ) 63.227.248.125

because he made you and me. I do know he listens to my prayers and has even answered many. Be VERY careful George about YOU think you know as absolute truth and history which may or may not be, as I will and try very hard to do. I believe you are wrong on several points, thats OK. Personally I am quite convinced of the truths and doctrines of the Catholic Church; I would die for my beliefs and Christ before I recanted a word; take that to the bank. Have mistakes been made? YES on all sides of the pews in EVERY church and in every religion and that will continue until the second coming.


seems fervent

This response submitted by PA on 8/23/06 at 11:34 AM. ( ) 147.72.68.109

"I would die for my beliefs and Christ before I recanted a word.." How is that any different then Muslims who believe in their book?

Each religion has their beliefs and the practitioners fervently believe they are on the right side and everyone else is on the wrong side. For Catholics, the Pope has said if you are NOT catholic, you won't go to heaven. Muslims believe the same thing. It is not surprizing that many believe that Religion is actually the problem not the solution...


typical bs twist

This response submitted by Jim Marsico on 8/23/06 at 11:51 AM. ( ) 63.227.248.125

The POPE and the Catholic church means, and its VERY easy to look up! that you must believe in the Gospel and be a member of the "body of Christ" by that statement. I would not KILL for my faith, I would die before giving it up. BIG difference.


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