The other day I asked what is the correct distance from the iris and the top and bottom of the eyelids, but I had it worded wrong, thanks to Terry V,s response maybe I can ask it right. At a competition this spring a judge told me that I had to much distance between the pupil and the eyelids,he went on to say that in a relaxed deer the top eyelid will be a certain distance from the pupil, the bottom will also have acertain distance in relation to the pupil,but I can't find the info. I wrote down. Hope it isworded right!
Since each deer is different, the amount of distance would be different. How could a standard be set? I see several different distances in my deer when they are relaxed. None are the same from deer to deer.
Sadly, that comment is something competitors have to deal with as JC put it. A few years back, a beautifully done bear was entered in our state show. The bear had the left side of its face filled with porcupine quills. The mouth was opened, and the left side of face was "swelled" and the left eye was partially closed. The mount took a second place because "it lacks symetry". When the judge was asked, his response was that because of the difference in the appearance from left to right, he didn't think it deserved a first.
By the way, the mount was taken to the Eastern Regional and won a Blue ribbon and BOC.
Sadly, that comment is something competitors have to deal with as JC put it. A few years back, a beautifully done bear was entered in our state show. The bear had the left side of its face filled with porcupine quills. The mouth was opened, and the left side of face was "swelled" and the left eye was partially closed. The mount took a second place because "it lacks symetry". When the judge was asked, his response was that because of the difference in the appearance from left to right, he didn't think it deserved a first.
By the way, the mount was taken to the Eastern Regional and won a Blue ribbon and BOC.
Like George said, a lot of judges don't know their eyes from that little vent under the tail. I have served as a judge on occassion and while I have spent a lifetime studying wildlife, a lot of judges sadly haven't. The example George stated would be grounds to remove the idiot(s) who made that decision forever from the judge roster. Animal eyes do not register expression as much as humans, since their facial muscles are not as complex. A deer that backed into an electric fence may get a bit more "wide-eyed" than normal, but that has probably never been witnessed. Deer, along with most herbivores are rather simple creatures, and while they can roll their eyes around a bit, and have some variance in eye position, they are not capable of the expressions Walt Disney gave bambi and his kin. Next time ask the judge to go into detail and give you what you are asking for here. I, for one, would like to hear that explanation.
Bryce,
I think what you are looking for is this:pupil in relaxed eye is about 1/3 the distance from top lid as the bottom lid. In other words, a little north of center. (You have to sit quietly with a tame deer as it is laying down, chewing cud, etc., to see a relaxed eye.) If you are canting your eyes very much this will be hard to achieve. I HAVE seen deer touch electric fence but they don't need a strong stimulus to have a lot of expression. And they have a variety of expression! (Interestingly enough, aparently neither hard antlers nor that hollow hair conducts electricity very well.) They are extremely adept at communication skills,between themselves, other animals and with their human owners. Deer "talk" all the time, you just have to hush yourself long enough to see what they are saying. No, I don't anthropomorphize animals (and, yes, I had to look that word up.)Eyes can be quite variable in expression! More than what "cookie-cutter" deer mounts lead you to believe. Just as with humans, the nostrils, lips, tongue, brows, body are all part of it (plus they have the ears and the hair.) Deer are not big problem solvers but they are certainly gifted with the intellegence of instinct, they are adaptable, communicative, are extremely aware of their surroundings and have very long memories. Visit some tame deer and let them teach you. Best wishes!
Indeed, some folks DONT know what those eyes are doing. Lianne has the right idea, if at all possible, try to observe the animal first. The whole idea of where a pupil is in relationship to the lid is really quite simple. As the eye closes, the lids move out over the eye surface, correct? When you look at the eyelids, you can clearly see that the upper eye has a wrinkle, crease, or what I refer to as an overlap. Excess eyelid skin is overlapped there, in the form of a crease. Correct? Well, as per these observations, you now know that the upper lid travels further then the lower lid, right? So, the lids will meet at about the same time as the pupil is covered, as its the pupil that sees. Thats when the eye is closed. The pupil still favors the upper side of the eye, but as the eye closes its close to center...
Lianne is right, but you have to separate the cold and sometimes harse world of observation that some of us live with from assignment of human emotion to wildlife. The example about the fence was a joke, Lianne. As a wildlife artist, I have spent half of my waking hours for a lifetime, lying on my belly watching wildlife. I have shot thousands of photos of deer in pens, cages and corrals in parks and zoos around the world, and in the wild until I have most of the world's deer specie's portraits on hand, from the tiny muntjac and Swinhoe's deer to the Pere David's. Your comments show you to be a good observer and evidently a serious lover of wildlife. I try to keep my human emotions out of my field work, when possible to remain objective.
Just for fun, I went through several hundred photos of deer from my morgue and you know what? The pupil is not visible in most photos due to either the light reflection or the distance from subject. On those close ups that did display the entire eye complex in detail, it would appear that the lower edge of the pupil is nearly at center in the exposed portion of the eyeball. (Truthfully, in the wild, by my observance, there is no such thing as a "relaxed" deer. They seem to constantly be on the alert.)......that was another joke Lianne.....
When a group of deer people get together we can talk about deer most of the day. I hunt whitetails and raise them. I just plain like being around them. When a new object or person is in the pens the deer change their behavior. They become more alert and act more like a wild deer. Their eyes will bulge out as they become alert. I have one buck that will squint his eyes when he becomes agitated. These are things that people with deer know about. Like anything that you are exposed to, you see more every day and wonder how you didn't see before. I have sat next to deer as they fall to sleep for all of two minutes. I've sat in tree stands and watched wild deer bed ten yards from me. They do relax in the wild but on their scale not ours.
Oh, and Bill G., as far as keeping your observations cold and objective, try to not match wits with the animals you are trapping. They are only doing what their instincts tell them. (Now I'm pulling your leg just a little, all in fun) I used to trap when I was a kid, still got a few traps hanging in the shed.
I wouldn't pretend to have half the knowledge you have in your little finger. I really enjoy your informative posts! I am very easy going and mean no offense to anyone but I have had little to be passionate about lately, so the opportunity was kinda fun! LOL
I think one difference in wildlife observers and animal trainers/handlers is that the handler had better learn to read and assign intent on the critters behalf, and be right, or "get his lunch ate". It is handy when you know an animal and something isn't quite right, small signs (yes, he's "telling" you), to catch an illness early, whether the intruder is a dog, another deer or a human, or maybe get out of it's way in a hurry! I think working with large domestic animals, you tend to just take these things for granted.
Best wishes, Bill, write on!