Your thoughts on high fences and baiting

Submitted by Neal Wright on 02/09/2004. ( nandbtaxidermy@hotmail.com ) 192.208.130.130

I was just wondering about everyones views on high fence enclosures, and baiting whitetails. While baiting here in Mississippi is illegal, its not in lets say Texas, Arkansas..to name a couple. It really chaps my ass, to see these hunts on T.V. of some big wig money maker, hunting on a high fenced ranch. It ususally goes something like this. He flies 1 st class to the ranch, gets out his 10,000 dollar rifle, and the guide drives him to the tripod, if thats what you call it. Most of these "TRIPODS" are big enough for an army. They are complete with heater, windows, and your choice of beverage!
Well looking out the window the hunter sees the tall feeder. But he also notices that the ground is bare of corn. But he has faith in his guide, and remembers the guides parting words. The deer should move around 4:00. He looks at his watch, and dang its another hour to go. Well around 3:58 he is beggining to doubt it. At exactly 4:00 he hears a click, and a whirl from the feeder, and corn flies everywhere, and low and behold the deer come from every direction. The look at the tripod, wind it from downwind, and even though they know somethings wrong the still come to the feeder. Deer everywhere, and one of them just so happens to be a high 180's typical. Hes the on with his know stuck so far into the corn like hes in a trance. Well the hunter finally gets on him, and pulls the trigger. The hunter killed himself a fine buck of a lifetime...Cornfed that is!
I dont know about you but this is NOT HUNTING. Half of these folks couldnt HUNT a deer if they had to. I guess they will never know the feeling of scouting a buck out during the summer, and watching his horns grow to maturity. Then figuring out his patterns, and hanging your stand, and playing the wind to get that perfect shot. I just think they would get alot more out of the hunt, than the shot itself.
Dont get me wrong I love to shoot too, but the real joy to me is seeing a mature buck in his natural setting, seeing a tom strut to my call, or watching a flock of mallards cup to my decoys. Then the real thrill is taking them home, and showing them to my 2 yr old son, and wife. Just the way my Dad did with me. The bad thing about it is these so called hunters are raising their kids to hunt the way they do. They will really miss out. Oh well I guess this is just one hunters view. Im sure there will be those who agree, and disagree.
NEAL

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Not everyone has your ethics!

This response submitted by Kevin on 02/09/2004. ( kevinrc@gwengineers.com ) 24.116.178.139

Neal,
Although your point is well taken, I don't see much difference in hunting deer over corn vs. hunting mallards over decoys or turkeys with a call. If you're such an avid hunter, wait for the mallards to fly over and shoot them. You shouldn't need decoys to kill a duck. Darn, it's just a duck. Why call in a turkey, you should be able to scout them in the winter and then stalk them in the spring.

Hunting proudly over corn in Texas,
Kevin


We all live downstream

This response submitted by George on 02/09/2004. ( georoof@aol.com ) 64.12.96.15

Neal,
Under Cecil's beloved socialism, you won't have to worry about that any longer and if Kerry gets elected, it'll happen sooner than you thought anyway as he'll make sure those $10,000 and $100 guns are confiscated anyway.

We all know that none of those video productions is about real hunting anyway. They don't sell videos where a hunter sits for 7 days in a row on a stand and never sees a buck. Bet you've done that, but would it sell on video? I think not. So what we have is you with a chafed ass because SOMEONE makes more money than you do. If YOU made that kind of money, you'd own a $10,000 rifle and sit in that same stand (Don't deny it. It's easy to deny when you're poor, but too many poor people who've struck it rich do just that for your swearing against it.)

I hunt in Saskatchewan and there are bait stations that are constantly visited by bruiser bucks. The chore is NOT shooting an average one of these 140 to 150 class animals waiting out that 170-200 class animal. There are no fences and there is no other food within 100 miles, so they come and I accept that deer hunting there isn't anything like the deer hunting I do here in Delaware.

As for baiting, that's all pure bullsh1t. WE ALL HUNT OVER BAIT. You many not have a feeder or mineral lick, but you hunt cornfield edges, soybean field edges and water holes. If you AREN'T hunting them, you're finding trails that lead to them and you're hunting those. You find pinch points between bedding and feeding areas and you hunt those to insure that you see concentrations of deer. Only perception is the difference since the definition is the same. You're just mad that you're poor and you can't afford to sit directly over the bait.


It's all bait

This response submitted by Linda C. on 02/09/2004. ( ) 64.33.183.136

We have the same war going on here in Wisconsin with lots of the same kind of name calling going on.The "hunters" in the south claim baiting is unethical,unsportsman like and not really hunting.They don't or can't make the distinction between what they do and baiting.In Southern Wisconsin there is acre after acre of agricultural land.Block after block of grains and grasses.Now they may hunt over,around and between these blocks but they don't use bait.It makes my ass ache.Here we have thousands of acres of national forest and very little cropland but because we PLACE bait,we're unethical.You use what ever hunting method you prefer and leave the name calling to someone else.


A Real Deer Hunter

This response submitted by Brad on 02/09/2004. ( ) 152.121.200.200

Larry Benoit, The vermonter that tracks his deer in northern Maine and New Hanpshire where densities are less than 4 per Square Mile. Maybe you have heard of him or seen the videos of him and his sons.
Just proves that woodsmanship, determination and the ability to kill a buck on the move on the ground in his backyard is not a completly lost art these days, Oh and did I mention with the same open sighted 30/06 for the last 35 years?


Brad

This response submitted by JEM on 02/09/2004. ( ) 64.179.71.115

Big woods deer still are feeding. Big woods deer still follow edges (yes there are edges in big forests). When you cut a set of tracks you are still following the deer to his food source (a buck is looking for a doe which will be near a food source). I'm with George - we're all hunting over bait - just some states allow us to put it there othrs make you find it.


George, this time I can honestly say...

This response submitted by marty on 02/09/2004. ( ) 67.173.51.16

...you are TOTALLY FULL OF CRAP!

Let me see, you're saying that hunting deer over a bucket of food, where you can pinpoint EXACTLY where the deer are going to be to the exact 1/4 inch is the SAME as pinpointing a deer amongst vast acreages of "bait" (as YOU call it)? Give me a break! This is BY FAR the silliest analogy you've EVER made that I can recall! (Although, I could search the archives - lol!)

Furthermore, I've heard you ranking on this kid in Iowa being used as a pawn, blah, blah, blah - when what you do up in Canada with your poshy guide service, all but pulling the trigger for you is pretty much the same thing, right? (except for the using the kid part of course).

IF you can justify baiting in your mind, good for you. But don't drag us non-baiters into your circle because there's a HUGE difference in harvesting a deer over a bucket vs. a 1000 acre field or more.

George, why don't you come to Illinois and try to pattern our heavily pressured deer over our "bait" and let's see how well you do?

NO WAY would I EVER do the canned hunt thing - no matter how rich I ever became. Where's the challenge? I simply don't get it.

And Kevin, GIVE ME A BREAK! You've obviously never duck hunted. Decoying ANY waterfowl is FAR more challenging than pass shooting. At least where I hunt it is. In fact, we've almost got into several altercations with pass shooters sky busting our swing birds. You may wish to try duck hunting over decoys BEFORE you condemn the people that do.

My buddy dumped apples once (a few years back when baiting was legal) over his stand. He harvested a small button buck and wished he NEVER released the arrow. He felt sick to his stomach - sorta like calling your dog to have a treat and then whacking him over the head with a two-by-four!

Neal, I couldn't agree with you more. (Can you tell? - lol!) Good for you folks that can justify it in your minds, I suppose you're keeping the herd in balance. But, it's simply not for me. Alright folks, take your swings....


George has never hunted huge acrages of Kansas fields

This response submitted by John C on 02/09/2004. ( ) 66.233.157.155

Think about some of the fields in Indiana, Ill, MO, Iowa and Kansas.
There are fields your 30-06 cannot shoot across.

Niether has he hunted the deep deciduos forest of the OZARKS. There are more fields now than in years past, but also there are not ANY CROPS, yes noone row crops here, its 100 miles anyway you point until you find a dirt farmer. Well there is not any dirt on most of these hills to farm. Our farms are Pines if any or cattle.

Yea some do bait and some plant food plots, but I will take you out and show you no crops so 98% of your hunting is going to be luck.


Or try the "Poor Man's hunting grounds"....

This response submitted by marty on 02/09/2004. ( ) 67.173.51.16

Public Land. Some of your best hunters out there are the folks that can harvest trophy deer REGULARLY on public land. Get into Public land like the terrain John speaks of and that is even a BIGGER challenge and accomplishment...


well

This response submitted by paul on 02/09/2004. ( ) 68.83.60.145

all have our opinions, i certainly feel an animal is at a certain dissadvantage when a hunter patterns it to a bait pile! my question is this. if you live in a state where baiting is legal and you feel so strongly against it, and your a full time taxidermist do you now reject the work? i live in a state where baiting is very illegal, its now getting to the point where feeding wildlife at all is slowly becomming illegal! i may not agree with game farm hunts either, but never the less these so called hunters do put food on my table with (their) trophies.


Marty, John, you both couldn't see forest for trees.

This response submitted by George on 02/09/2004. ( ) 152.163.252.161

You justify your "me better than you crap" anyway you like, but for ANY hunter to bad mouth another for participating in a LEGAL activity is beneath contempt and you make your anti-hunting friends really happy with your looking down your nose at others. Kansas - Illinois? Maybe you should Reread Linda Clines comment. Those states HAVE big deer because of the overabundance of cereal grains and hay fields. Tell me about that flat prairie John, where alfalfa fields grow from horizon to horizon. Or those wood lots with the white oak trees and the abundance of mast crops and how that's not shooting over bait. I'd suggest you two clean your act up before you end up sounding like Ingrid Newkirk at PeTA.

As far as the Albia buck, I didn't say a thing about the taking of the animal, only the ethics of the father and brother who ended up hogging all the attention and notoriety that should have belonged to the teenager that wasn't allowed to participate in the harvest except to pull the trigger.

Now Brad, lets not even GO to the Benoit family. That whole group was under big suspicions 20 years ago and actually shunned by the entire hunting community for "ethics and possible poaching" charges. I've noticed a sudden reappearance of them again, but none of the original charges have ever been answered.


Good point Paul

This response submitted by marty on 02/09/2004. ( ) 67.173.51.16

For me, being just a Fish Guy, I'd be in trouble if my clients didn't use "bait" - lol!

Well, you can tell by my posts that I feel pretty strongly against baiting. I've hunted in Southern Illinois in the Shawnee National Forrest and I'll admit, it's tougher hunting down there. But, you still CAN find saddles, escape routes, acorns, etc. that can help put the odds in your favor. It's not all luck. It doesn't take any skill to harvest a deer that came to your bucket'o'food...


baiting

This response submitted by scott on 02/09/2004. ( ) 64.110.215.119

i live in saskatchewan and in the northern zones we do bait deer to our stand,s but the difference is there are no 20' fences any where for a 100 miles.im with you neal anyone that call's hunting within a high fence and a pile of bait(the only food in the fenced off area)should have there head checked out by a doctor.not much sport in hunting sorry shooting caged deer or elk if you ask me.


George, just because it's legal...

This response submitted by marty on 02/09/2004. ( ) 67.173.51.16

...doesn't mean it's RIGHT. Remember when SLAVERY was legal - you're old enough right? (lol). We all know how much politics can come into play on these issues. Being "legal" doesn't always make something right.

Heck, in Texas and many other states you've already got a 200-300 yard shot with the use of rifles and scopes. Now they've got to ring the dinner bell too? I'll give you the rifle and scope, but imho baiting crosses the line of fair chase ANYWHERE.

If you put in your time and learn the land, you can harvest deer anywhere. Heck, it took me 6 years to harvest my first deer with a bow on public land. Persistence, effort and knowledge gained from failing is what harvested that deer. THAT is what hunting is all about - NOT the actual killing part.

I can understand supporting someones right to own a handgun to help protect my rights to own a sporting shotgun. But, baiting is simply wrong in my mind, and I cannot support it anywhere. I don't see it as a big Peta "win" either if "we" were to give up the right to bait.

I DO support other hunter's rights. But in my mind a person that uses bait bastardizes the definition of what a "hunter" truly is. They aren't hunters, therefore I cannot support those that bait. Wherever that falls into place on the hunters vs. anti's schedule, well so be it...


Something your not understanding

This response submitted by shooter on 02/09/2004. ( ccannon@telepak.net ) 66.175.168.66

First to Neal and his original post. What you have to understand is that as the property for people to hunt on diminishes there will be a larger demand for "high fence" hunting. Some people don't have the time it takes to find a buck, pattern him and wait patiently in a tree for 14 days until he makes a mistake. There are those who love to hunt but because of the geographical area that they live in or the time constraints of thier job can't put forth the effort that some of us can. Those people have no other alternative except to book a hunt in a "high fence" ranch and shoot a buck. Now you have to look at it from the outfitters point of view.
1. The outfitter is getting paid to put a client on a deer. Usually a weekend hunt to make time of the essence.
2. Baiting is legal.
3. The best chance for the client who doesn't hunt very often and may know very little about the sport is to harvest the animal over bait. It would only seem in the guides best interest to use bait to his advantage.

Now to "high Fences".
1. I book and guide hunts in west Texas every year for exotic sheep. Corsicans, Black Hawaiian, etc. This add about 20 plus mounts to my work load every year BEFORE deer season starts. That translates to $$$$ for my family. My outfitter has about 50,000 or more $$ tied up in those animals, it would be fool hardy for him to allow them to roam unempeded across the country.
2. I recomend to all of my hunters that they take thier bows and try to spot and stalk the animals when I book the hunt for them. Some do, some don't. Those that do find it more challangeing(many have had to pull out thier rifle the last day). However, there are many who would just as soon sit in a rocking chair and drink a cold one while they wait for one to step out into an opening.
Who am I to ridicule them. Its thier money, let them spend it how they want, in the end it all boils down to them shooting the animal and me mounting it for them.
You can't pass judgement on them, its not your place. If you don't want to hunt like that then don't.
I hunt in Oaks during archery season, that is a natural bait. I use doe in heat scent during the rut, thats a bait. I take my son and we sit on a food plot during the afternoon, thats bait. No diffence just diffent in the way you look at it.

Just my thoughts,

God Bless,

ClifC


Here bamby.... come on boy.... here bamby......

This response submitted by Bill K. on 02/09/2004. ( klager@nvc.net ) 64.68.174.35

Paying someone any amount of money to shoot a deer that responds to a timed feeding station seems kida silly to me. On the other hand.... if someone feels that shooting Pavlov's dog is an accomplishment, then I guess I'm just happy they're not roaming around the woods that I'm hunting in.

And sure, I'll mount it for them. If I turned away every customer that I thought was an idiot, then I'd be out of business. I even mounted a pheasant for someone that lived in Delaware this year. I felt sorry for the guy.... lol

Bill K.


Hey guys!

This response submitted by migda's taxidermy on 02/09/2004. ( ljmigda@hotmail.com ) 208.252.179.31

I gotta agree with George on this one! Up here in northern michigan baiting has been a real hot issue for quite a while, so its much talked about. Everyone seems to think the way "they" hunt is the only ethical way. But i agree that if you hunt any food source or any trails leading to it, you are pretty much doing the same as a guy who puts out bait. Are you trying to tell me its ethical to shoot a deer coming out to a farmers crops{planted by man} but its immoral to do it when their approaching a bait site{put out by man}. Kinda silly i think to think those to methods are any differant. The only problem i've seen with "some" baiters in my area is they seem to forget some of the other aspects of deer hunting ie. scouting,looking for rubs scrapes, etc. I've shot many deer, some off bait,many others by other methods. Most of the deer i've talked too said they didn't care which way they got shot at as long as the hunter missed.LOL As far as enclosure hunting..definatly not for me! But im sure not going to bad mouth it in front of a client who just brought in that big buck to be mounted! I just listen to the mighty tale of hunt and hope my eyes dont glaze over. The bottom line is dont piss in the others guys canteen...cause you gotta sleep sometime!


Real Cute Marty. You've been reading too much Cecil

This response submitted by George on 02/10/2004. ( ) 205.188.209.5

To compare hunting over bait to slavery is about as far into the depths as you need to go to make any points on this post. If you simply admit that was made in haste and in bad taste, I won't assume you're a complete idiot. You would make an excellent PeTA member with your distorted logic. I'm even surprised that your high handed ideals allow you to use a scoped high powered rifle to hunt deer. I assumed you were using an osage bow with cedar arrows fletched with wild turkey feathers. Doesn't take much to kill a deer with a gun, anyway, right? That's pretty lame of you. As I said before, people like you with that "me better than you" attitude give aid and comfort to those that despise hunting. If YOU don't like the idea of baiting, quit trying to distance a corn feeder with the methods that you're using. Because YOU don't understand the concept doesn't excuse you from being a hypocrite about it.


Bating is illegal in Alabama

This response submitted by Billy Brock on 02/10/2004. ( ) 65.141.204.75

BUT anyone can clear a place in the forest,plant non native grasses, any type grain. If they own or lease the land and call it a food plot then hunt over it.If they pay the state G.M.A. office a fee and place the property under a trophy management program the state will even offer advice on how to manage the food plots ,typical game law enforcement policy


There is bait, and THERE IS BAIT!

This response submitted by Christina Jones on 02/10/2004. ( iluvnails@aol.com ) 205.188.209.5

But geez, how much fun is a "hunt" if it consists of going to your spot right above the feeder, waiting for the clock to tick to 4:00 when the feeder fires up? IMHO, that is a "shoot" not a "hunt." No different than skeet. If that is what you enjoy, then get after it, as for me, I at least like to "try" to use my brain- a little- and try to hunt and find where they might be going for dinner! I agree with the point above, I would feel like i called my pooch over for a treat, and whacked him on the head....yuck!

That said, if my mission was to find a big deer to hang on the wall, I might do the 4pm lunch call bait thing. BUT, I assure you that I would watch this fun for awhile, weeks, before I chose my trophy! See, you can add a LITTLE "hunt" to the feeder shoot! Granted, some people dont have the luxury of "weeks," and if that is what they want to do, then I dont have a problem with that, its just not fun to me.

I certainly don't want to watch that on TV either...booooring, and what is not boring is a little sad to me.

Christina


George, you ARE right!

This response submitted by marty on 02/10/2004. ( ) 67.173.51.16

I AM an IDIOT for knowingly getting into a heated debate with you. Because I know very well how you approach just about every argument you take on. You distort somebody's words or take a portion of what they say out of context and then you run with it and proceed to belittle them the best you can. AND you are good at it I must say!

The slavery comment was just an example of something that was WRONG that was LEGAL at one time. I am CERTAINLY NOT comparing this issue to slavery. Any IDIOT could have figured that out from my post (Oops, I just pulled a "George"!)

"Better than me attitude"? Talk about the pot calling the kettle black ! "Because you don't understand the concept..." - another quote from you that is clearly another BADGERING technique. Basically calling me an idiot (AGAIN). You say that you debate fairly (search the archives), yet if you re-read GAZILLIONS of your posts one can easily see you usually take a handful of facts and then go for the juggular.

There's a BIG difference between calling a deer into a bucket of food and harvesting one amongst MANY possible food sources. If you don't see the diference, then you are an IDIOT! And according to your views, there must be a LOT of IDIOTS out there because I KNOW I'm NOT the only one that feels this way about baiting.

Personally, I hunt shotgun season with open sights and I hunt escape routes on public land for the challenge. And I don't use a bow anymore, I find pointy stones and attach them to a piece of bamboo and hurl it at my quarry - again for the challenge.

Through the years I've enjoyed reading your posts George because of your wit and curmudgenous - it was humorous. But that humor has evolved into something that is no longer humorous but downright MEAN. You are NOT a nice person. And you don't play fairly. You no longer entertain me George, you sicken me. Do me a favor, take a look in the mirror tonight and tell me who you see? Are you happy with where you are in life and WHO you are? Do you see George Bailey or Mr. Potter?

Have a nice day...


George, you ARE right!

This response submitted by marty on 02/10/2004. ( ) 67.173.51.16

I AM an IDIOT for knowingly getting into a heated debate with you. Because I know very well how you approach just about every argument you take on. You distort somebody's words or take a portion of what they say out of context and then you run with it and proceed to belittle them the best you can. AND you are good at it I must say!

The slavery comment was just an example of something that was WRONG that was LEGAL at one time. I am CERTAINLY NOT comparing this issue to slavery. Any IDIOT could have figured that out from my post (Oops, I just pulled a "George"!)

"Better than me attitude"? Talk about the pot calling the kettle black ! "Because you don't understand the concept..." - another quote from you that is clearly another BADGERING technique. Basically calling me an idiot (AGAIN). You say that you debate fairly (search the archives), yet if you re-read GAZILLIONS of your posts one can easily see you usually take a handful of facts and then go for the juggular.

There's a BIG difference between calling a deer into a bucket of food and harvesting one amongst MANY possible food sources. If you don't see the diference, then you are an IDIOT! And according to your views, there must be a LOT of IDIOTS out there because I KNOW I'm NOT the only one that feels this way about baiting.

Personally, I hunt shotgun season with open sights and I hunt escape routes on public land for the challenge. And I don't use a bow anymore, I find pointy stones and attach them to a piece of bamboo and hurl it at my quarry - again for the challenge.

Through the years I've enjoyed reading your posts George because of your wit and curmudgenous - it was humorous. But that humor has evolved into something that is no longer humorous but downright MEAN. You are NOT a nice person. And you don't play fairly. You no longer entertain me George, you sicken me. Do me a favor, take a look in the mirror tonight and tell me who you see? Are you happy with where you are in life and WHO you are? Do you see George Bailey or Mr. Potter?

Have a nice day...


Marty

This response submitted by George on 02/10/2004. ( ) 152.163.252.161

It's only "mean" because you don't understand how to write or read. You comparison was obviously idiotic and your feeble attempts in justifying it are even more stupid. I didn't call you an idiot because you didn't understand the concept, you verified it by assuming yourself to be one.

I can easily accept the opinion of those who don't LIKE the notion of hunting over bait. You not only disliked it, you ridiculed those who do it. That's PeTA material. I don't hunt deer with dogs as many people do, but I don't condemn them for doing it as I know how impossible it would be to chase deer out of those swamps. Delaware recently allowed baiting, but I've found that baits only attract braggin sized bucks during darkness. It attracts more squirrels than deer. When I look for the big guys, I trust the rut and the green briar thickets they bed in.

What you attempted to do was condemn a large segment of our hunting community because their enjoyment was beyond your understanding. Like Bill Yox said in his work toward shooting down the NY legislation is that you can't have it both ways. Hunting high fences, over bait won't stop at just deer. There are no pheasants south of mid America. They can't grow. There are few bobwhite quail above it, but thanks to "shooting preserves", many people experience the joy of a bird rise.

Thank you for wishing me a good day. Every day I awake is a good day, and the first thing I usually see in my mug in the mirror as I shave. What I see is contenting. I'm alive and what I see is what I am. I don't back down from a fight and I don't sit on my opinion. I sleep quite well at night because tomorrow, I won't have any trouble remembering what I said today. Because YOU assume that I'm a mean and bad person has no effect on what I consider of myself and I'll sleep just fine tonight. I hope you can do the same after slandering those of us who don't agree with your position.


A Warped, Frustrated Old Man...

This response submitted by marty on 02/10/2004. ( ) 67.173.51.16

Potter had no trouble looking in the mirror either...


George George!

This response submitted by Neal Wright on 02/10/2004. ( ) 192.208.130.130

Its always your way or the highway. Let me tell you one thing man...
I am in no way poor, and I thank God everyday for what he has given me and my family. I am lucky enough to have a good paying job for Mississippi State University, and my wife has a good job in banking.
I do taxidermy part time, while I am not scouting cotton, rice, soybean, and corn fields for insects. I also consult to farmers about their insect management stategies. So George you ogre there isnt an issue of income. As far as the 10,000 dollar rifle; I dont want and I dont need it. You see out of all the guns I own(which is a collection), my favorite was my granfathers 1917 sprinfield that he used in combat. It was left to me by my Grandmother. Sadly it was stolen by some sorry SOB and probably pawned for drug money. I have replaced it with a browning a bolt, but it will never be the same as old faithful. And guess what I could care less about going on one of your 100% success rate hunts. I get more satisfaction of hunting our 3000 acre virgin hardwoods than I would ever get setting over a bucket of corn. You say we all hunt bait in some way? That is the biggest bunch of BULL crap I have ever heard an old fart say. Apparently youve never had to scout out that particular tree that the deer are feeding on. Apparently youve never had to find that special bedding place during the rut thats holding the does. Apparently youve never hunted during a year with a massive acorn crop. You see baiting is using something you place to draw in game. God placed the trees, and honeysuckle. You wanna say he baits? I think not. I should say you better not. You always have something smart to say no matter what. You are closed minded. I tell you what I have a place on my land that you need to hunt. I can assure you you'd strike out.
I regurlarly score in the area, buts its only because I have hunted there all of my life. But, if you wish I can set up a feeder 2 weeks ahead of time, and you'd score too. Get the picture? Its wrong. I know what Ive written want make a bit of difference to you, because whenever someone else tries to share their thoughts with you, you pull the ol ostrich routine. You know George I have alot of respect for your taxidermist abilities, and you have helped me out more than once, but you downgrading me, and calling me poor has got to take the cake. You know............. Im not poor financially, but If I was I still would have all a man could ever want. A loving wife, and son, a loving family, good health, and a Loving God that will always supply my needs.
Neal Wright


Neal, your points are still moot

This response submitted by George on 02/10/2004. ( ) 152.163.252.161

You own a Browning, but I know a lot of guys who own only a used H&R. I started out with an old Mossberg, but I, too, own several Brownings and Benelli's now. Is that a sin? The point is, the gun you lost was invaluable for sentimental reasons. Does that give any credence to berating others who WOULD enjoy such a gun and can afford it? Does that give any reason to slander them for taking advantage of a legal means of hunting? Why are you people killing hunting with an indictment of a practice you don't particularly appreciate? I'd invite you to hunt Saskatchewan or Manitoba with me sometime and see. This is all millions of dollars going back into economies desparately needing it and most of all IT'S LEGAL. In Delaware, we have an overabundance of deer (it's really an overabundance of PEOPLE, but you know who loses there.) Deer are fast becoming vermin and any means of reducing numbers means healthier herds.

You and Marty can rationalize all you want about baiting, but the fact remains, deer are attracted to FOOD SOURCES and don't live and thrive where there are none. Any predatory animals understands that and as such, you HUNT BAIT no matter what Diety you bring to bear.

I can appreciate your not participating, but why damn those who do? Do they pose a direct threat to YOUR enjoyment. You're obviously an intelligent man and you haven't resorted to distorted analogies and fantasy figures in science fiction like Marty, so why can't you see that your comments only hurt a sport that you claim to enjoy so much? Each time one hunter ridicules another for his practices we ALL lose. No one will ever FORCE you to hunt over ARTIFICIAL FOOD SOURCES.

On a reservation in Arizona, a gentleman spied a Navajo chasing a deer with his Toyota pickup truck. When he came alongside, he stuck his rifle out the window and killed the deer. Then he field dressed it and tossed it into his pickup truck. The gentleman was taken aback and quickly chased the man down to berate him. He admonished him for such a "cowardly act" and reminded him that he should use the methods of his forefathers. To which the Indian calmly replied, "We used to go hungry when we chased them on foot, but the Spaniards came with their horses and we filled our bellys by riding the horses close. There are few horses around, but Japan has given us another type and we can still eat."

My point is now and has been, contrary to Marty's lambastings, that hunting revolves around the people and not the other way around. When these people berate and ridicule others, they show their own shortcomings. I wouldn't chase a deer with my Toyota or shoot it after dark, but I never go hungry either. No matter HOW I feel about the story above, I haven't walked a mile in those moccasins either. If I did, my story might be different.


Funny!

This response submitted by MarkV. on 02/11/2004. ( MarkV.33@centurytel.net ) 207.230.203.186

This is about the funniest post I have read in awhile! Being in the state where the biggest or most bait pile wins.(Wisconsin) I can relate to this issue. But then again in our closest neighboring state(Minnesota) they have the biggest advantage(The rut) over us even with the baiting. By the time Wisconsin season rolls around the deer the deer are out of the rut for the most part and looking for some food thus the baiting comes in to play. So you would think you could shoot a monster every single year Not a chance!) I would much rather hunt the rut than be able to bait any day. Baiting puts you in much closer for a cleaner shot but doesn't guarantee a shot at a big buck by any means.But put the rut into play in combination with baiting you got a chance then but like I said the rut is winding down in Wisconsin when rifle season starts so it doesn't really mean your going to bag a monster.The only one in our party that has shot a big buck over bait was my grandfather and that was during bow season and was his biggest ever.The buck followed a doe into the bait but I think he was looking for some action with her not the corn. Darn nice to see him so thrilled. I am one who no longer baits but if someone wants to and it is legal so be it.My biggest hang up with it was I baited in bears instead of bucks so I quit.It was fun to see the bearsbut got tired of feeding them instead of the deer. And if someone wants to shoot a cornfed deer in a highfence more power to them its their money and time go for it.Like I said here in Wisconsin the most bait wins but big bucks over baitpiles is usually a pipedream and not reality for the most part.I do many deer that were taken from Texas over bait their money is as green as the next guys. Good luck guys and great threads, Mark


I think a lot depends on where you're at Mark...

This response submitted by marty on 02/11/2004. ( ) 67.173.51.16

We hunt in a CWD zone in Wisconsin. Because the gun season is SO spread out, so are the hunters. And less hunters in the field during the rut (we have an earlier/longer season in the CWD Reduction Zone folks) means deer act more naturally. Therefore we can indeed take advantage of the rut. But that is pretty much offset by fewer hunters in the field to move the deer around. Throw in the earn-a-buck deal and now we've lost most of the advantage (that's another story)

But, I also hunt gun season in Illionis too. Manytimes during prime rut periods. Because we have such a short season(s) with LOTS of hunters in the field, MOST deer could care less about any lovin. I've found an occasional buck on opening day that was searchin for some lovin. But very few. Most figure things out really quickly, head for the thick stuff and hunker down. Only getting up to move 3 seconds after legal shooting time - LOL! (Or pushed by other hunters.) A lot depends on how heavily pressured the deer are specifically in the area where you are hunting.

In my opinion, the rut has very little to do with success ratios during most states with short gun seasons and high concentrations of hunters in the field, Wisconsin included (9 days). The rut plays a much bigger part during bow season when the deer are more relaxed and natural. With a bow in Wisconsin you can use the rut to your advantage just like in Minnesota. I'm not sure how long Minnesota's gun season is or how many hunters are in the field. I suspect less than Illinois or Wisconsin. Therefore they might indeed have a slight advantage in being able to use the rut.

Isn't Wisconsin's traditional 9 day gun season set moreso for convenience with the upcoming Thanksgiving Holiday than anything else? (You know Wisconsin's Unemployment rate traditionally peaks during that week - that's pretty funny!)


You know...

This response submitted by marty on 02/11/2004. ( ) 67.173.51.16

For the record, I have much less of a problem with high fences (as long as it's not a square acre or some minute piece of property) than I do with baiting. Given a sufficient chunk of turf, deer can elude hunters very easily within some relatively small acreage.

There was a study done years back. I can't remember the exact numbers so I won't even try, but there was a LOT of deer KNOWN to be in a fenced-in square mile area (I believe it was a square mile) and a LOT of hunters went out and hunted them. Long story short, success ratios were approximately the same as their non-fenced-in counterparts. And furthermore, MANY hunters NEVER saw a deer in the three days they hunted!

My biggest issue with baiting and those that bait is I simply don't believe it's fair chase. And furthermore, the main reason it's legal in many states is one - because of politics. Many people want that advantage. And two, it's simply another tool for the DNR to control the herd. Ethics and fair chase have very little to do with things when it comes to being legal in some states.

I believe that there are other tools that the DNR could be using to control the herd other than baiting. In areas where deer are scarce, maybe baiting is helping to keep the deer scarce by keeping the overall numbers too low via overharvesting? There's lot's of variables here that I don't even want to attempt to say that I know all the answers. All I'm saying is I've got a moral issue with baiting and those that "hunt" over bait anywhere, whether legal or not. And with CWD prevalent now in many areas these days, you will most likely see more and more states banning the use of bait to attract deer as it's a known source of spreading CWD...


Good observations Marty

This response submitted by George on 02/11/2004. ( ) 64.12.96.15

Baiting here hasn't done that much for kill ratios as weather had proved more an issue. Most of our hunters are "road hunters". Though it's illegal to shoot from the road, few actually venture far from it to hunt and when the weather turns bad and or wet, we have fewer and fewer hunters.

As we don't have to contend with CWD YET, your point of the food actually vectoring the disease is well taken. A bigger problem with high deer densities and bait, however, is EHD or blue tongue. Where they gather, they die usually. EHD, however, is controlled by keeping the herd thinned out, so I guess that ends up being a Catch 22 situation.


Other things to consider...

This response submitted by Mike Dunbar on 02/12/2004. ( ) 207.230.218.103

First I don't agree with George that baiting is similar as a food source as ag land or acorns or other natural sources. The natural sources are for the most part gone or severely diminished here in NC Wisconsin at this time of year. They are not available to deer. Hunting these sources requires work and time, and because someone doesn't have the time is no argument for them to take an easier way out. I don't have time to do a master's division mount this year, so I'll just buy one and put it out there. Hunting a field vs. hunting a corn pile is very different, does a deer feel more comfortable coming to a food source deep in the woods vs. an open field? Does it matter which way the deer comes from if you hunt the pile? How about the field? Ever spoke a big buck in the daylight from a field and NEVER see it again.

Some will argue that supplemental feeding is good for the deer, especially here in the north in the heart of winter. Many people enjoy watching deer come to their feeders. Although individual deer are benefitted by having the food, the herd as a whole suffers due to the fact that their numbers are artificially increased, and there survival is enhanced beyond what would occur naturallly. Deer that would otherwise not survive the winter for whatever reason, have a much better chance, is this helping the herd's overall fitness?

This sets the stage for real fun here in Wisconsin when it is compounded by diseases mentioned like CWD and EHD. TB is also another one that is probably even more of a realistic threat to add to the list. Despite the recommendations of scientists and the DNR to end baiting and feeding here, the politicians managed to get baiting and feeding through. Some contend that disease has not be "proved" to be passed by artificial feeding, so we should allow it. The problem is that it has not been disproved either, and that taking a chance with allowing it to continue is not worth the ecomonic, social or biological risk associated with the potential spread of disease. How will your taxidermy business be doing if a disease like TB gets in the herd in your area? Who's going to hunt then?

Also, decoys can be used for deer, ducks and turkeys. Why can't we bait turkeys and ducks? If the rut is a bigger advantage than baiting, why not hunt it, bow season is open here during the rut. Most guys that gun hunt set their bait piles withing bow range anyway. Never argue that baiting allows better shot placement. If that's what it takes for you to take ethical shots, than you don't deserve to be out there. You shouldn't be taking poor shots regardless.

Why is baiting legal is some states and not in others? Are those states more "ethical" that don't allow baiting.

Charles Alslheimer has a book "Seasons of the Whitetail" or something like it, and in his foreward he mentions how he was able to get great photos of this buck throughout its lifetime. He conditioned it to his corn bucket, by rattling corn and calling in the deer as a fawn. I could rattle in the deer here by my house when I used to feed them with corn in the bucket. Through feeding deer can become conditioned to tolerate human prescence and drop their guard. I know in the big woods this is not a likely scenario where guys don't hang around the corn after they dump it, but it is the case for cabin hunters. As far as PETA goes, why give them the ammunition? Cleaning up our act is the best way to take it away from them, not by pushing it under the rug and hoping they don't see it.


We're on the same page Mike...

This response submitted by marty on 02/12/2004. ( ) 67.173.51.16

EXCELLENT point about PETA/ammunition btw. I never thought about it from that perspective...


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