This message is for George. Hi again mr. Roof. sorry i just cought your reply to the fleshing machine alternative post. You can say all you want george about this jerryrigged. alternative. and that it wont do the same thing as a fleshing machine. Well sir i beg to differ. you've obviously been in this field longer then most the people on here except for a few and claim to know everything about everything which is all fine and dandy. BUUUUTT. . i was introduced this method by a fellow taxidermist thats been useing the wire wheel for nearly 30 years on animals from squirel to bison. so dont freakin tell me that it wont work. And if you need a name As much as i hate to give it out. feel free to email mr gossard. anytime. There again personal prefferance. By the way. is this the George forum or are other people allowed to make an efort to help others also? Sounds to me you've got to much time on your hands George. sounds like you dont mount anything you just set infrount of the computer and wait to give smart a$$ answers to people that have serious questions and concerns.
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NO, it isn't the GEORGE FORUM. I just calls um like I sees um. What you CAN do with a lot of things never changes the fact that they weren't intended for those uses. I've changed tires with a pair of Vise Grip pliers, but I'd still have rather used a lug wrench. Now in front of God and everybody, I'm telling you, you CAN'T shave a hide with a grinder. You might grind it down, or sand it down, but it's not SHAVING it and it cannot, under any circumstances, have anyplace close to the same results of a good round knife slicing flesh off in a controlled and monitorable manner. I grew up in a era where "making do" was a necessity. We used deer skulls, 2x4's, and wood wool to make forms. I stopped using a fleshing beam and draw knife just as soon as they came out with the PROPER machinery to do it.
There'll no doubt be those who follow your advice, but for the majority who are looking for the proper way to do things the proper way with the proper tool, I'll continue taking cheap shots at clothes dryer tumblers and grinding wheel fleshers. If you've ever seen the movie, "Quigly Down Under", his last lines were classic when he shot those three guys with a pistol. He said, "Never said I couldn't use one. Said I never much cared for them." Well, that's my line and I'll stick to it when it comes to grinders being used as fleshers.
I've read a post on 9-16-03 wher [ray] was fleshing and asking advice on how to do it, now he's telling me how and making a tape.
How many capes and back hides could you have done in 4 months?
Hummmmm
I can't see how the wire wheel will work. I have only been a taxidermist for 10 years, so am not as experienced as others on the forum. However I have seen other posts that say they also use the wire so now I'm curious. Is this a wheel that you are putting on a bench grinder? what size? RPM's? Do you flesh before and after tanned with the wheel? Even if it did work it seems it would take alot longer then with a blade. I mean no disrepect, but please convince me that this wire wheel will work.
I am shocked at the small mindness and inability to find it in your minds to accept that there are other ways to do things ther than the obvious George. I HAVE used a grinder for more than 20 years and IT has worked. I have been able to thin skins for mounting from squirrels to bison. It is slower on thicker skins, but so is the fleshing machine.
I have a fleshing machine as well. I have made comparisons so that I would be more open minded in the argument over which is better. I still use the wire wheel as it thins more evenly, and actually streches the hide while it fleshes. I can thin a hide to the hair roots if I want, and I can also thin the face, every inch of it, and even leave the whiskers, something that a fleshing machine will not do. You will cut the whisker roots right off, unless you finish that by hand, or pluck them and reglue them back on. I can also turn and flesh at the same time. I have tried this with the fleshing machine as well, and it is possible, but it still is almost impossible as the skin will not follow the blade, the blade cuts into the skin in the shape of the blade, a large circle. the skin may not be shaped that way and therfore cuts into the hide.
Now if you have actually tried to flesh with a wire wheel or actually
seen a cape that has been thinned by a wire wheel, then maybe you could give a intelligent argument, if you had one at that point, but you are simply using your emotions of the inability to grasp the concept that it is possible and actually WORKS.
As for ME, I will trash on the fleshing machine and its builders. I still cannot belive that everyone is still hooked on a machine that is built with only one purpose, and that they charge the high price for one when it is simple a overpriced meat cutter. I have seen kids in metal shops in Jr High make things with better quality, and also know that the actuall cost for making things is not what they are charging. I bet that Black and Decker or even Skill could make a machine that would do the same thing and sell it for around $40 to $60 bucks at a local wallmart.
I like the fleshing machine for the thick hides, but I can stil use my 30 year old grinder and flesh a pickled hide that has NOT been properly fleshed, and turned, (as is most of the capes I recived to tan for other taxidermist's) and finish it up and it is ready to tan and mount in 40 minutes. this is on a cape that is for a pedistal mount, extra large, as the mule deer are a lot bigger than most of the whitetails you are all used to mounting, and the whole skin is done from the ears, to the eye lids to the nose and septums and whiskers are left in the neck, eyes, nose and chin, YES, there are whiskers in all those areas and they are usually cut of by the fleshing machines. I have them in all my mounts.
Now, I know alot of you can do just wonderful things with your fleshing machines, that is just great. How about anything other that fleshing? I can sharpen knifes, sharpen wires for legs and wings in my birds. I can also machine metal parts for anything in the shop.
I can also grind down wood, and shape things for the habitat. I have made buttons from antlers, knife handles, and even removed meat from skull capes for mounting them. I am just getting started as well.
How about this quote
" The limits of a persons abilities is his own mind"
That is made form a person in REAL life not a quote from a movie that is fictional. At least Quiggly was proficiant enough with both the pistol and rifle to make the comparison!
Well enough said. I have stood on this soap box before and I have still had it with people that cannot just step back and see that there ARE other ways to do things.
Another quote for you george
"Neccesity is the mother of all invention"
Are we just going to stay using one thing just because it works?
How about better and faster and easyer and cheaper?
Not everyone can afford a fleshing machine to start, and I for one cannot really see the use of one in plain old hobby taxidermy.
I never said I couldn't use a fleshing machine, I said I jsut didn't care much for them.
Nuff said. i'm sticking with the method. . Hey George. YA EAT YET?.LOL.
$40 to $60 for a big company to make one, huh? Get real. A motor alone big enough to run the machine is gonna cost you $65 wholesale. The round knife blades are just as much and you haven't gotten to the bearings, the castings and the drive pulleys. There's a reason those companies DON'T make fleshing machines. Fleshing machines aren't disposable commodities. They last a lifetime. And their "specialty" products and Black& Decker don't even carry replacement parts for their OWN products.
I use a wire wheel on small game. It's ideal for foxes and squirrels, but as far as the crap you two are talking, I never did see any mention of black bears. I can't imagine horsing a lifesized big animal across a wire wheel on a grinder. And YES, I do have a grinder in my shop along with a belt sander and saw, but I don't use them for fleshing either.
Necessity certainly is the mother of inventions, but I don't recall it being the mother of innovations. If it had worked as well or better, we'd have never created the round knife in the first place.
And Ray, I did eat, but it wasn't those meat scraps flying out of a wire wheel on my plate.
George correct me if i am wrong but you can't shave with a wire wheel right? So why are you useing them on your foxes when you have a highdollar machine. and you mentioned you bouhgt a machine as soon as they came out and done away with the fleshing beam and knife? If i recall you had wrote up a story about useing the draw knife and pvc pipe but just 2 years or so ago. and sir they have had the fleshing machines out alot longer then 2 years.? As for black&decker.lol. I was thinking more along the line of a craftsman since you can always return it if it gets broke and they'll give you a new 1. George. steve actually does bison on his machine. so take that for what it's worth.you do your hides your way. and i'll continue todo them mine. and get the same results. Ray...
What kind of wire wheel do you use on the grinder?
I FLESH those small critters with my bird wheel, I DON'T SHAVE THEM. I think I'd probably pay admission to see someone wire wheel a lifesize buffalo. Course, I'd want a splash shield in front of me if he tried a bear or a wild boar lifesize. LOL
A few years back I had grave doubts about using a pressure washer for fleshing as well, but I've seen Richard Noles do it to perfection at several NTA shows. (He's doing it again this year in Huntsville). He uses a special chain saw carving device to remove the boar shield however, and he's never claimed to SHAVE a hide with it.
My posting on the PVC pipe and draw knife for fleshing was in response to a request I got from Fur,Fish,Game magazine some years back. I told them what I HAD used and I still have it standing in a corner of the shop along with the draw knife. I let beginners have a try at it before I ever stand them behind the fleshing, shaving machine. The grinder sets on the other side of the shop, however, and is used strictly for buffing and grinding. My belt sander is used for sharpening wires and fine shaping small pieces of foam.
As far as grinders go, I'm not doubting it CAN be done, but it's certainly not a method I'd ever endorse and I don't think I'm alone in that statement. I'm certain none of the professional tanneries and fur dressers use them for that purpose.
I use one! Its great for THINNING around the yes and nose! I also thin the lips and eyelids with it! I know its faster than a knife, and more even! I also have a fleashing machine, but I didn't have one when I started! Anyone that is getting ready to mount there !st deer head would be stupid to go and buy a fleashing machine, so they can see if they are up to learning Taxidermy! I know it works for me and I will continue using it! Just my 2 cents!
Tony
I have tried wire wheels, and it takes so much work for little results. It may scratch off some crap sitting on your hide, but your are constantly pulling crap out of the wire, and by the time you are done, you could have fleshed and shaved 2 more that are done twice as good. Not to mention fleshing chunks sprayed all over the place, even if you have a guard. Now I know there are many ways, but everyone has their oppinion, it's just some ways work a hell of a lot better than others.
When I have a question or a opinion that I voice on this forum I want to hear what anybody who will reply has to say, I always want to hear both sides of the story. If George dosent care to shave w/ a wire wheel, thats his opinion, you have the same right as he dose to voice your opinion. I can assure you that one way for you to remain ignorant is to not look at other peoples opinions, experiences thoughts and beliefs, and let them form your own opinions,experiences, thoughts and beliefs. This forum would be at a terrible loss without the kind, honest and patient people like George. These people are speaking from their first hand experiences through trial and error. I dont know about you but if I can make a few less mistakes or learn how to do something more efficiently by humbly asking people who have more knowledge than I will ever have Ill jump at it.
What ever. How about your argument about them not working yet you use one for thinning birds and small animals?
Droptine, I canot tell if you are taking sides or what. You say to be good ot george but them say you will listen to both side of the argument. Not sure what point yu are trying to make.
All I am saying is I have used a wire wheel and a grinder to do exactly what george is saying I cannot do. Well, I do!
George, If you cannot except it, well to bad.
Just becasue everyone is not using one does not make me a lier and I really do not like being treated like one.
You are not the Know all on the net. I owul oove to have you come and watch me thin a hide, but would rather have some newbeeies learn form me instead of pick apart the way I stand or maybe the way I talk or what ever.
I am starting to wonder if anyone can ever be as perfect as you are.
I just don't see how your going to get a hide to a uniform thickness with a wire wheel. And besides your not really shaving the hide with a wire wheel. Your grinding and scraping it down. At least with my machine I can adjust the blade to where I'm making one cut, and to the thickness I want. I've tried a my wire wheel on a few scrap hide I had, and the results don't even compare to my fleshing machine. I'll use my wire wheel on birds to help defat them. But to shave down a hide, I'll stick with my fleshing machine. Besides the mess it make with ducks and geese, I can't imangine what it would do with a bear.
Coyote
Well, It works for me. Maybe you werte not holding your mouth inthe right expression. lol
I have fleshed and shaved large full sized animals including bears, boars, and others. I just got done with a few bison last year before I got the fleshing machine. I would rather use the fleshing machine for the thicker hides sure, but that does not mean it cannot be done
Steve
Have tried shaving with a wire wheel,seems to tear or strip hide off.
Ok.on squirrels,fox. Too slow on deer except around eyes&muzzle.
Dremel tool with a coarse sanding drum seems to produce the same results,only easier.
I don't think I ever said you "can't", but I did say it's something I'd never even try. But just for the sake of argument, I'm going to give ONE or BOTH of you a chance of a lifetime.
If you're an NTA member or willing to join, come to Huntsville Alabama this July and do a demonstration of your method. I handle all the seminars and I'll make sure I have a place for you. I'm already running a 3 session seminar for beginners, and your method MIGHT be of interest to someone who doesn't want to invest in professional tools. You have to supply your own grinder and your own hides, and I'd prefer you had a deer and some other large game animal to demonstrate on.
You'll get a free pass to the show and a ticket to the Awards Banquet just for hosting the seminar. You'll have to cover your room and meals, but I'll even arrange it to limit your time there to a single day if you'd prefer.
Now, as they say in tennis, the ball is in your court.
George I'm not a member unfortunately. But i would deffenetly. doit. I'm sure Steve would oblige in a heart beat. I just dont think i would wanna be there afterwards and say i told ya so. Also, this method is as mentioned in the other post before this one. A cheaper an less expensive method for the newbies. that cannot aford a high dollar machine. Heck George if your in charge of all the seminars. then whynot. demonstarate the mothod yourself to the beginners. Bring along the pvc and draw knife also. would make a good seminar i would think. you could do half and half. a demonstration on the beam for the first segment then goto the wire wheel for the second. . Now i think there would be people come to see that. I'm done argueing over the matter . its getting nowhere. as i had mentioned before It's personal preferance. plain and simple. and i'll continue to use this method. Ray...
George I'm not a member unfortunately. But i would deffenetly. doit. I'm sure Steve would oblige in a heart beat. I just dont think i would wanna be there afterwards and say i told ya so. Also, this method is as mentioned in the other post before this one. A cheaper an less expensive method for the newbies. that cannot aford a high dollar machine. Heck George if your in charge of all the seminars. then whynot. demonstarate the mothod yourself to the beginners. Bring along the pvc and draw knife also. would make a good seminar i would think. you could do half and half. a demonstration on the beam for the first segment then goto the wire wheel for the second. . Now i think there would be people come to see that. I'm done argueing over the matter . its getting nowhere. as i had mentioned before It's personal preferance. plain and simple. and i'll continue to use this method. Ray...Oh Yeah. I am kinda currious. where the hell is Terry R. and his story of using the wire wheel and the pressure washer. and such. ? Funny when the feathers fly noone wants to jump on in and get involved with something they claim to use or know a little something about. . This cracks me up. Well I am done. I've said my peace.
i use both fleshing machine and grinder (both wire wheel and coarse grining wheel) - i HAVE NO TROUBLE thinning hide with regular grinding wheel - it is MUCH BETTER on face of small mammals and deer than my dakota - if you are trying to flesh a small mammal (coyote) i don't even turn on the dakota - not enuf control on the thin skin on back or belly - george seems to have an open mind only on his own ideas (dont we all)
Unfortunatly, I am a inspector for a Engineering firm and we are in full swing building roads, bridges, buildings and so forth all summer long. I would not have a chance in hell to get away during peak construction times. If the shows were in the winter I would have no problem coming.
I would just love to come and show anyone how it is done.
I will definalty try and figure out a way to break loose, but unless we have monsoons in Utah during July, Another chance in hell, I will be on a road out in the country building something.
But I appreciate the invitation by the way.
How much more open minded could I get than offering them the opportunity to show the method off in front of a NATIONAL AUDIENCE? Some of you guys would bitch if they hung you with a new rope.
No need for a new rope here George. I already prettymuch have 1 foot in the ground .so the rope doesnt bother me.I will say this once more so it can be made prefectly clear to you george. I will stick with my method as will the other people that use it i'm sure.(PERSONAL PREFFERANCE)once again. This forum should be titled taxidermy for god's You being god of corse. lol. Hey George could you maybe show me that trick you do at a nearby convention in Pa. WHERE YOU WALK ON WATER?I get a kick outta that 1. Oh yeah Steve sends his reguards. Ray
Ray, even your super hero has said he has and uses a fleshier
"I got the fleshing machine. I would rather use the fleshing machine for the thicker hides sure, but that does not mean it cannot be done".
There is nothing wrong with working within your means, but the wire wheel is not a replacement tool for a fleshier.
We all can paint fish with a paint brush, tumble birds with a plastic sack and prep. hides with DP, but we don't.
Earlier this week you were talking about making a tape on thinning with a wire wheel. I would think this nta thing would be a perfect place to promote your style and sell tapes. You could show thinning from
alligator to hummingbird.
'
Wilson ,correct me if i am wrong, but why did you email me wanting to know how to use my method? Curriosity get the best of you obviosuly. I am still having to repeat myself. time and time again. I am gonna use this method. I'm not having anytrouble with it . and as i mentioned PERSONAL PREFFERANCE. Best of luck Wilson. Ray
ray, i would never email you, and if by saying that you think it make you look any better ,go for it.
Then i do appoligize for the mistake. could have swore you had emailed me 2 weeks ago. . but doesnt matter. Honest mistake. You take care wilson. Best of luck toya.
I dont worry about what the beginner might think, or of what the pros think. I still like George, but I dont agree with his answer. My buddy uses a flesher to clean his capes. I dont, but he likes to. Theyre clean when hes done. After pickling, etc, he wire wheels them. Use any damned descriptive word you wanna for it. Shave, thin, wire wheeled, it doesnt matter. It DOES work. Ill tell you now that its the best textured cape Ive ever mounted with, as far as the adhesive grabbing it. This guy could turn lips and even lids with it. Anyone care to call me a liar? As for how uniformly thin the cape was, it didnt matter. Forms are fairly smooth, and glue is, too. But the skin was as well, for the sake of mounting them. Using a good stiff wire wheel on capes works just fine. Period.
Is obviously hard to make my point i'm glad you and steve can help explain things in a better perspective then i. Ray
we all agree with you it can be done,but up to this point out of everyone on this post, you are the only one that doesn't own and use a fleshing mach.
I own a whire wheel and own a power washer ;but both are a bigger mess then i like to deal with.
if you like it stick with it.
I don't own 1 is because 1 i just can't justify spending that kind of money on a machine that i can do the same thing with. and 2 i have already gotten enough info from other machine users that say the same thing. they can still achieve a great looking shaved cape with the wire wheel. . .Ray..