Bill, probably only you and I know, 100% of what we've discussed over the last week or so. I fully understand most, if not all of your points. I would think you have to agree, with some of mine cause I've made so many (but who knows). At least, I know you are a mature adult and we can hopefully; agree to disagree on some if not all points.
I really do appreciate all the valuable time you've spent on our discussions. Right now I'm seeking closure. I don't even want you to reply, to this message.
I appreciate you and admire you for all you do for this site. You are trully one of the masters here, and I for one greatly appreciate your humble attitude. Thanks
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Bruce says he was a Sgt Major, and as an Air Force Chief, I've know more that a few of them. But THIS guy wasn't part of my generation for sure. Bruce, this here is that "real world" they taught you about in the academies, but it ain't like they said it was. THEY LIED.
Just so the records straight. I'm NOT one of those "experts" you talk about. In fact, there's only a very few of them on here and the examples you used earlier involved only ONE. I'm a pretender. I've been doing this since I was 12 and I know the correct ways of doing things. Knowing and doing is two different worlds however. And there's certainly 'more than one way to skin a cat'. A wise man once said," Good judgment comes from experience. Sadly, experience comes from bad judgement." We're just trying to relate our experiences here. Take it or leave it, but don't rely on a single source for it. In computer jargon, that's likely to commit you to a "loop" with no escape key. And PLEASE, stop whining. It gives our retired ranks a bad name.
Welcome aboard! Some people are kinda gruff around here but can actually save your butt when the need be. And I hope you really didn't mean what you said about the archives . The search is a beginners best friend. Just learn how to word things right and you'll be amazed at what you can learn. It's all there. Peace-Jeff F.
George, I don't know how much of mine and Bill's discussion you've actually read.
When did you serve? How old are you, not that I believe your generation anology applies.
Soldiers took care of me when I was a junior soldier and hopfully, I took care of them when I became a senior soldier. That's one thing you learn in the Army. Don't know what they teach you in the Air Force (my brother served 24 years there? Don't know what your talking about as far as the academies go. They never lied to me that I know of.
As far as this web site goes just trying to be nice and polite and follow the protocol. Is that what your generation failed too do, in your opinion. I can assure you there are all types of people in the military, just as on this forum.
Sorry, I mentioned your name if that's why your writing this now.
In the army they also taught us one way to do things, one way to salute, one way to stand, at attention, one way to eat our meals etc. I wish there was one way to do taxidermy. But, I already explained to Bill; there was no way that was ever going to happen. To much money involved, to much competition, to many guys wanting to maintain their edge over others.
People keep referring me to various training. How to become an electrician, how to become a heating/air conditioning man, barber etc. I'm smart enough to realize, I would have to pay big money to learn these skills. The way you see it, I should have to do the same to learn taxidermy. I have no desire to learn the above professions, only the art of taxidermy. I have no desire to become a master. At this point only care to mount my own deer and my brothers/nephews deer. They seem pleased with my skills so far.
There are many beginners, hobbist's, lurkers, non-posters here. Like me at one time, they're smart enough to stay out of this. Your supports and Bill's will surly continue to ream me. But, I'm sure I have my supports also.
You should keep in mind that I'm not the only one capable of giving our retired ranks a bad name.
Did I mention that I also do my own income taxes? Perhaps today would be a good day. As income taxes would give me more pleasure than this forum.
Thanks, and I appoligize for calling you an expert.
Sorry, Rookie. I didn't get a chance to read your advice before posting this.
Having grown up in a military family, having talked to many aspiring taxidermists and knowing George as long as I have, I have some conclusions drawn from these exchanges. You arent all the way correct in your assessment, but thats the beauty of an assessment, we form them to suit our needs.
To put it bluntly. and of course, Im known for doing so...Bruce, you take things too literally. We often speak in general here, and I dont mean rank, lol. I guess youll need to get a feel for this forums before youll fully understand some of what we are trying to say. You arent getting reamed because you disagree with me. Youll see. Lets just say, using a military analogy, that you see things through a Patton movie, but these forums are more like the show M.A.S.H.
One last thing, and this ought to be fun. Its all about the new methods, the money, the system, you suggest. Guess what? I STILL open my capes ALL the way down when caping. Yep, the dreaded, antiquated long incision. How could that be so? The short incision rules these days. Again, the bottom line...theres more than one way to skin a cat, and I use what works for me. Also, as George doesnt feel he is of expert status, I too feel that we are all equals in here. Probably though, experience rules, as the term "expert" is often a self-appointed title. I appreciate your views (although theyd be much easier to follow and read if you kept them all with the original post). I think youll glean more from these forums once you look at them through more favorable eyes.
Like I said Bill. I was seeking closure on this. I wrongly assumed, if I left my last post; that would happen.
George, is being a flammer at this point. I don't know why.
I hate to have to explain basic exchanges with ya, my man, but you dont get "closure" in a forum post when you end a post with open statements like you have. This time you mention that of George. Let me guess, someone will reply to that comment too...
is George. And I thank God I got my "reams" in the beginning. I now prefer to think of them as constructive critisism when need be. In the beginning I thought there was nothing but a bunch of a$$holes on this forum and was ready to give up when I suddenly started to see 3-D and actually started learning. Bruce, calm down and look at things from different perspectives before taking the defensive. You'll save yourself a lot of grief. You seem to have the desire it takes to learn but as with anything ,it's a long hard road to do it right. I continue to learn bunches. First off, I'd find the nearest taxi. convention and get there asap. Taxidermist are great people and so willing to share when they see someone with drive. E-mail me if there's anything I might be able to help you with from a beginners standpoint. Peace- Jeff F.
I'm 58 years old and I served from 1964 until 1993. Just like I told you, the Army lied to you as well. The Air Force did the same thing. "There's the right way, the wrong way, and the Air Force way." Remember? Right off, they admitted that their way (in my case the USAF and in yours, the Army) wasn't the "right" way.
Like you, I took care of my people. I learned early that if you take care of THEM, they'll take care of you. If you don't, they'll still take care of you, but in a much different way. I'm still trying to do that with taxidermy, though many times I fail and end up having to apologize. I don't recall Yox ever having apologized. Guess he's never been wrong. LMAO.
Bruce, trust me, I'm a whole lot short of being a flamer so far in this post. As the Hulk said, "you wouldn't like me very much" if I had been.
"My" generation probably has failed. We've failed because my parents generation provided one helluva safety net for us with two World Wars. My "boomer" generation has lived through austerity, but never poverty as our parents did. That little austerity made us give everything to our kids who only demanded more. Now spankings are cruel and warnings to kids are considered "verbal abuse". Oh well, life sucks sometimes. If I type something here, I said exactly what I intended. That works for both of us. You won't think I might have "meant" something else, and I certainly won't have any trouble recalling what I said as I considered it the truth when I said it. I don't believe in Political Correctness. If your ass waddles and you quack, you're a duck and I'm not going to dress that up to soothe you fragile feelings. You don't like what I said or the way I say it? Don't read it. As I've told many others here, however, don't ever assume you can come on here and make a dumbass remark that will go unchallenged if I see it. MY GENERATION never learned to fight nice. When we were being nice, we didn't fight. Sorry to hear about yours.
George responded to me after I responded to you. I keep trying to get out of this. I basically surrendered and said you were right. Maybe, George just picked up on the humble thing. I was just stating, I respect you for your denying the expert thing. We were your peers, we all put our pants on one leg at a time, we all look the same with deer blood/snot on us. Was that deer snot or our own snot. By the way Bill, you wrote the original post titled: Message to the new guys, long ago archived. I also appoligize for calling you an expert (man you guys are real sensitive). I hope we're good now. I'm not trolling for enemies. Thanks
George, I'm only five years younger than you. Almost, starved to death as a younster, along with my 7 brothers and sisters when my father went to Korea in (63). He also served in the military (20 years). Fought in WWII and Korea. Like I said I'm not trolling for enemies. Don't care to debate. Maybe, I'll do those taxes now.
This guy sounds like he needs to be in a vetrans hospital!
Bob what did I say to make you think that. Oh, you mean George.
Sorry
Sorry, George. After thinking about it I'm sure he meant me. I forgot about all the support you guys have. Must remember, No SUPPORT FOR ME HERE, NO SUPPORT FOR ME HERE.
he will not quit tell he has the last word,how funny.
Bruce Almighty !
Just a few rambling thoughts...
I like you bull-headed old farts (I'm a middle-aged, "old" fart). The "fartism" on this forum is as entertaining as the knowledge that can be gained...the experienc eof amateur's, advanced and experts is all appreciated.
...and, yes, knowledge can be gained by bumpin' the orange button!
Bill Yox, I slice 'em all the way open, too! I never felt it a chore to stitch the things all the way and ACTUALLY find it easier to cape, handle, flesh, and mount the thing by doing so!
As my Uncle David once said, "The one thing we all have in common is we're all different!" That is why the multi-faceted views on this forum run our fur the wrong way at times!
The nice thing is there is no rule that says we all have to get along or have "one best" way of doing things or tid bit of sage advice to offer! But how BLAND would that be? I like different kinds of dip for my chips and varied advice on these forums!
I got into epoxies because of JOhn C.'s unwavering and matter-of-fact promotion of them and will never look back!
I'm also a huge Aluminum Sulphate fan, but that is just me! Heck, a 50 bag only cost $17 from a local chemical supply company! I LOVE how it locks the hair! Followed up witha good tanning oil and hot dang...minimal shrinkage!
But I do like some of the modern stuff too!
And my hard-headed likes/opinions, etc., blend into the pandora's box known as this forum!
I think I'll have a bag of Cool Ranch Doritoes rather than Nacho cheese this weekend.
Best Regards,
458okie
Im sensitive? Hell I still dont know why hes apologizing! The best part is, give Bruce a couple more weeks with us, and he will be one of the resident crazies here just like the rest of us! Case closed.
I think Bill and I are good now. So now you and I can continue our discussions. First on the right way, wrong way, and Army Way. The army didn't care about the right way and they sure as heck didn't give a hoot for the wrong way. There was one way to do things and that was the Army Way, in reality it eventually turned out to be the right way. Again, I don't know what your talking about when you say they lied to me. With all the patriotic fevor going on in the U.S. today, I wouldn't be expecting anyone of accusing a fine organization, like the U.S. Army of lying. Especially not a fellow retiree. I was patriotic long before 9/11. Many a time before that, the mere raising of "Old Glory has brought a tear to my eye".
George you say I don't know you, but, I have been a lurker on this site for over a year. I know much more about you than you know about me.
Before you made your post yesterday, I think I knew/or believe I knew the following about you (could be wrong on some points):
1. You were close to my age.
2. You were retired from the military.
3. Your wife works.
4. You've been doing taxidermy, for numerous years. So many in fact that you are growing tired of it. You may give it up any day now. You have enough money with your retired pay, wife's pay etc. You don't do near as many deer these days as you did in the past. Despite this fact you are still behind in your work.
5. You've never won an award for a taxidermy mount, because you don't care to compete.
6. You have many admirers, supporters, friends on this site. Often using them to back up your opinions. Thus the: he, don't know me, do he (post above)? That was just you calling your dogs in to take me on, in my opinion. They can inform me of nothing that Bill's supporters havn't informed me of already.
7. You are a hunter. Sometimes traveling out of state to hunt.
8. You killed a seven point buck in Delaware, this year.
9. A lady taxidermist friend of yours assisted you in mounting it.
10.You were a firm diciplinarian, during your military days. You often use that analogy to bash people on this site, when they don't agree with your views/opinions.
11.You often use that generation thing, to put people in their place.
12.You will often bash people for their dumb ass remarks (not agreeing with your opinion).
Your life is an open book. Displayed in an open forum for all to see. Mine is quickly becoming that way. If people have read everthing I've written, they probably know more about me than my 78 year old mother. I'm normally a man of few words. I don't discuss my political or religous views in private, much less on this forum.
So, George why were you so eager to jump on me. Being specific, what dumbass remark did I make? You need to quote. Am I still whining in your opinion? Still not living in the real world? Be specific.
I've often felt this was a "good ole boys club", is that why you jumped into this. Did you pick up on the humble word and assume Bill needed protection.
Do you want to offer me any advice/guidance/assistance/tell me your methods/what products you use to mount a deer's ears or would you rather continue this senseless debate? Thanks
Bruce mail me I can info you on some VA things that you might want to know concerning training. For me its all about what works for you some like smooth epox some like sculpt all some like all game. Some like just trying new stuff then goes back to the old. You can learn a lot on here it is tough to go into detail on some areas. This is the civilian life and there are a lot of services provided on here . But remember this is the civilian world and several people make a living on teaching and taxidermy. I will tell you this. Some of the best knoweldge I got on Whitetails was with a hands on with Bill. Some of the other best traing I got was with my state assoiciation. You are happy now with doing your friends and relatives deer but you are a competitive person and will want to do better you will not get that off videos or this forum you will have to get face to face with someone and get some hands on. Just like tak9ing apart a M60E3. You don't have to travel to NEW York there are some good ones right in your neck of the woods and if you asked Bill he would tell a couple. So good luck with your learning and your old retired self. From a retired old self .
Elmer
MGYSGT USMC
Retired
Why do people keep referring me to additional training? Actually might be interested in this one though. I fully respect the fact that these guys make their living by teaching/writing/doing taxidermy. Bill already explained writing for Breadthough Magazine was his, Bread and Butter. I fully respect this. I had written bill off as a source for assisting me in the future, when I typed this very post. I didn't figure we would ever correspond again, even though I planned to continue to follow him. If that's George's view, I respect that to.
This is an open forum people can write what they choose and withhold what they choose.
I may get back with you later. Thanks
You are a vertible youngster as far as this industry goes it would seem. Though our ages may be parallel, I've been doing taxidermy for nearly 46 years. The problem with that in itself, however, is that taxidermy was a closed shop industry until organizations like the state associations, the IGT, and the NTA came along in the 1970's. All of us yearning to be better never had a forum to learn from. As a result, I've spent the last 20 years UNLEARNING the bad habits I'd gotten into in the first 26. Kids just coming into taxidermy don't have that kind of baggage to carry and thus seem to advance at lightening speed to some of us old farts.
As for the ooh-rah patriotism, I'll stand shoulder to shoulder with anyone. I'm NOT, however, so dumb as to think the US Military is above reproach. Sure you were lied to. We ALL were, but we were brainwashed into accepting it, working around it, or using the system to change it. If you say you didn't, I know you either didn't serve or you're lying. When I came in I was "promised" 100% retirement after 20 years, "lifetime" health care INCLUDING DENTAL, "lifetime" life insurance, and burial in "Arlington National Cemetary if I desired". You want to tackle that list for me? All that was way before "retirement" pay was defined as "base pay" and the percentages came in. All that was before Tri-Care. What life insurance? And finally, that was before Arlington was replace with a disclaimer that any National Cemetary was equivalent to Arlington. How many times were you told what the mission was only to have it be changed in mid-deployment? You need to wake up. This is the REAL WORLD all the military schools and academies (I'm a little puzzled how a Sgt. Major didn't attend any of the NCO/Sr. NCO academies or the PME schools that you implied you hadn't.)
Now, just so I can Simonize my soul, you've made several very BIG mistakes about me
1. My wife doesn't work. She's had several debilitating medical problems (i.e. loss of all her small intestine, lung cancer twice, and a severe stroke). She is a retired federal civil service worker and she does have a pension. Thank God she has medical insurance since the vaunted "free military health care" doesn't come anywhere close to covering me fully until I'm over 65.
2. I'd never say I have "enough" money from our retirements. I've said I could LIVE and EXIST on it, but if I want to enjoy some of the finer things in life, I'll need to keep doing this for sometime. Either that of find something else that pays real money.
3. I've won many awards on my taxidermy work but NOT at any level higher than my home state. I have 2 WASCO awards to prove it. Those mounts probably wouldn't have even ribboned at some of the larger state shows, but that's the breaks.
4. Sure Bill and I and several others have "supporters" here, but you need to wise up about that. We HAVE those people on our side only because our track records have remained steady. If any of us screw up, those same "supporters" will quickly tell us to get our heads out of our butts. We don't have a mutual admiration society here. If you give good or sound advice as YOUR OPINION, you won't ever need any "backup". Bill Yox would never want me to step up for him as I'd never want him to step up for me. Especially if I was wrong! I love all these guys, but I'm a pretty arrogant SOB in thinking I could do just as well other places with other people. We all do privately, now don't we?
5. I, like most "lifers" from the military did the majority of "growing up" there. Whatever I am, I owe to them, but if that relates to "bashing" someone, you've missed the boat. I suffer fools badly, much like my father before me and my grandfathers before him. Maybe it's genetic, but I suspect it's a standard I grew up with and lived by. The military was never a dichotomy in that way of thinking. Instead of cowering behind "playing nice", I have a tendency to point out what I feel are wrong headed ideas. Most people react when called on points. Whether they are right or wrong, only by such a distraction do they ever re-evaluate their methods. A person using acetone without a respirator or stirring a pickle with their bare hands NEEDS to be distracted violently before that distraction turns into a fatality. (Let me use a military example. In Vietnam, a person could usually toss a grenade about 25 yards-we didn't go metric back then. A phosphorous grenade however had a kill radius of about 50 yards at that time. Now if you saw some kid pop the pin on that grenade and get ready to heave it, would you blow roses up his butt so you wouldn't hurt his fragile ego or would you scream at him like a raped ape?) Well, we don't toss grenades here, but some of the innocent sounding practices can be just as deadly.
6. And finally, IF I use this "generation thing", it's intended from an experience level only. NO ONE is impressed by age on here. Amy Ritchie is 16 years old and she is a prodigy that never seemed impressed by me or my age.
I'd suggest that if you feel that this forum is a "good old boys club", you need to step back and look in the mirror. This site has seen thousands of taxidermists come, go, visit, or just lurk. It's just a big swimming pool. Those that don't swim, might feel that way simply because they've never bothered to jump in. It will ALWAYS be a good old boys club to you as long as you persist in seeing it that way. You want to be a "good old boy"? Then get off your ass and participate. Don't sit in that peanut gallery and observe and think that makes you a part of the game. You have to play on the field.
Maybe my life IS an open book, but I wouldn't bet on that too much either. I try not to carry any secrets as I'm likely to forget them, but regardless of this "generation thing", I'm still capable and eager to learn. There again, it's tough to learn by watching rather than participating. Have you joined your state association? Are you a member of the IGT or NTA? If so, great. If not, why not? Start putting faces on the words you read and you'll quickly find that we're all the same even though we're all unique and different. Friendships formed here are unlike military acquaintenances who usually fade with time. We all share a lifelong talent and that will last the rest of your lifetime.
Now, if this has been a truly "senseless debate", why have you carried it on so long. Debates stop when one person refuses to reply you know?
George observe your last sentence and remember (you have the option of following your own advice). To me have chosen to continue this debate. Remember this is an open forum, Many people are reading this by now. I consider them all to be adults, capable of forming their own opinions. Most have now chosen the option to stay out of this. (Which is my advice to all). If your dogs want to take me on, I'll handle them one at time, also (none of this guy is a whiner crap). I have been corresponding with Bill for over a week. Bill responed to a post I actually wrote to Bruce Rittel. This was my second post from Bruce. I wrote my life story, in it, my full experienc with taxidermy etc. That I'm a lifelong, obsessive hunter/fisherman etc. Have had 14 deer mounted by so called professional taxidermists. That one didn't even look like a deer, one was bug infested and following apart, etc, titled the post Bruce Rittel/others bored/warning long post. Don't think many people read it (who knows) I for one am not happy with this site, seen to many people belittled, insulted, reamed, etc. I made the following statement; I have been reading these messages/archives for over a year now. Never posted but, one time in the past. Have been to afraid of getting reamed. It seems some taxidermists do have an attitude.
Bill followed with the following post. Just a message to the new guys. In it he welcomed new guys to this forum. He stated, he was inspired by my desire to learn taxidermy but, it made him laugh to see a grown man type something like that on this forum and of all people a military man.
I replied Back: now Bill being a crusty old retired Sergeant Major (Army) you didn't really think I was serious when I made that statement did you (probably have proved my point since). Since then Bill, and I have had our discussions. You chose to stay on the sidelines, until I asked, Bill for closure. Then you took on the role of a flammer. Thinking your dogs would handle me. This is getting long.
So, Im going to be brief (impossible). All this and much more is in your much recommened reading titled: the archives. I have also learned computer skills during my lifetime. I can pull messages up and repost etc. If I could just find them in guess what. Guess what, didn't pay anyone to teach me these skills either.
So, now George you are accusing me of lying. Am I suprized (NOT NO, BUT HELL NO).
I stated in my post some of the things, I knew/thought, I knew about you might be wrong. Have read about your wife, realize you just haven't competed out of State, etc. Have visited Amy Richie's site more than once, have referred others to the site etc.
I'm sure I can return to the archives if I really want to know your life story.
I attended the United States Army Sergeants Major Academy, know many more Sergeants Major than you do. I was drafted in Jan 1970. I did not go to Vietnam as the Army ordered me to Korea. I got out of the Army in 1971. Lived in your real world (working at United States Pipe and Foundry in Anniston, AL). Was getting nowhere in life and in 1976 rejoined the Army. Achived the top NCO rank of SGM. Retired on 1 AUG 2000. Have my military records to back me up. Am 20% disabled, etc. Believe me, if necessary I can prove all this to you.
Know I'm a veritable youngster on this site. Doesn't give anyone the right to belittle, ream, accuse me of being a liar etc. Don't really care how many years you've been doing taxidermy. Don't care if Bill uses than antiquated long incision, etc.
Don't try to squirm out of your ealier statements as I warned you early on you were capable of giving the retired ranks a bad name. I was promised 2 1/2 percent of my base pay for each active duty year I served. Have gotten 65% of my base pay for the last four years as promised. Am a very thrifty, do it yourselfer. Look at money as basically paper. Only human beings use the stuff. Can't believe we kill each other over it. Don't understand all the greed in this country. Drive a 19 year old vehicle with 260,000 miles on it. Maintain it myself. Don't own a boat. Fish for crappie in the spring (almost every day from middle of March to April by using waders).
Realize nobody really cares about this. But, until they know me/know about me will show me no respect.
Have read it all before about my need to join associations, subscribe to Breakthrough, etc. Pay someone to teach me taxidermy. Just your opinions.
We can continue this or end it, up to you now. I'm sure you'll put the ball back in my court. Thanks
Bruce, you ARE something! If you read YOUR words and evaluated YOUR posts like you do ours, youd see what we see about this. Ream, blast, supporters, writing people off...yikes! I dont wanna even try to unravel this.
Back to support your old buddy again. I thought yall didn't do this.
Thanks.
Not only have I read my, on words. Believe it or not, I actually typed them. You thought, I paid someone (did't you). George is a grown man, he doesn't need to take take up for him. Or does he?
What are you trying to get across? You have pissed folks off, label this site as useless and then can not even interpret what folks type here. George and Bill have given A LOT to this site... what have you contributed? Give it a rest, most folks have been generous to you so far.
DaveT
You still haven't told me what I did that caused you to step into this mess. I told you early on we are of the same generation. We never learned to fight nice (you said it remember)? We also were man enough to stand up for ourselves. Your old buddies will continue to support you to the bitter end. Ysll have sent many a person home with their tail, between their legs.
If your having trouble following this. Search the archives. It's all there.
I labeled this site as Bill Yox. Meaning my message was for Bill.
I told him, I didn't even want a response from him. People have the right to read this or bypass it. Label your future posts as useless, I care not to read them. If you need to ask me what points, I'm trying to make. Search the archives and good luck.
George can end this as well as me. Don't see you giving him any advice to do that. You guys think, I'm enjoying this, no way. I'm just seeking to learn the art of taxidermy. That's the only reason, I'm here.
I'm ready to call a halt to this no winner, no loser. Good luck in the future. Thanks for serving your country and I'll stand side by side with you in the future, if necessary. I will not return to this post. So, if you have something else to say to me. Enter it as a new message. Titled: Bruce T. Thanks
Im being as patient as I can stand to be here. I was answering you, not sticking up for George. And I do not intend to start yet another post to say so. You make this into way more than it is. Hopefully someone else will try to satisfy your inquires from this point on...over and OUT.
You are a complete lunatic and no one even paid me to say that! You sound like a stalker knowing Georges complete life. Who has time to look into someones life that much! I wish that the creator of this site would kick you off! I also hope everyone else ignores all your next comments, and i am sure you will post some other kind of dumbass remark! GET A LIFE YOU ARE A LOSER!
Additional Training means taxidermy is a study never ending just when you think you know it all you learn something new. A new way might not fit your needs but it might. If I teach somone I tell them right up front taxidermy is a study. It was just like in the military each rank is a study and learning expierience. Some people have the qualitys to be a leader some don't, some people have the talents to be a taxidermist and some you couls teach all day and they will struggle with it. Those on the forum or in the industry share their talents some with one on one training (additional training) and some with just giving info on ways to do things. I have learned quite a lot since retiring by hands on and talking wiht others in the field and this forum. More so there will never be a replacement to the comoradre you get in the military but talking and sharing with alot of folks on here and at shows sure comes close. Hope this helps .