George- cape 8" x 27" x 31"

Submitted by Thomas on 12/1/05 at 8:05 PM. ( ) 4.155.132.110

I just thought some might be interested but listed on ebay item

http://cgi.ebay.com/31-Whitetail-Deer-Cape-antlers-taxidermy-mounts_W0QQitemZ7201388121QQcategoryZ36272QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

a huge whitetail cape showing the measurements 8" x 27" x 31" some seem to think not possible as earlier posted, myself I have never before seen one so huge I guess seeing is beleiving!

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Yep its for real, if dragonsinger2 says it, its darn close

This response submitted by Rorie on 12/1/05 at 8:20 PM. ( ) 67.141.92.228

Some people never believe anything, maybe because they live in a hole. When I lived in Omaha I got one or two fo these a year out of the 30 or so heads I mounted.

These people gouging prices over 20" capes. those are everywhere in the farm land of the midwest.


very possible

This response submitted by Roger E on 12/1/05 at 10:04 PM. ( trophyhunterx@yahoo.com ) 216.220.27.69

The WT buck that I shot in NW Montana {along the Milk River} has the same cape measurements...totally relaxed and unstretched...and the cape from my son's buck from last year was an inch bigger on the neck and the same on the face...true story...


And this is new because........?

This response submitted by George on 12/1/05 at 11:50 PM. ( georoof@aol.com ) 64.12.116.132

Never said there weren't any, said they were few and far between. And anyone who claims differently is probably form Omaha to begin with. Rorie, maybe you're better check Bergmann's Rule. I didn't make it up, but the "midwest" is a little far south to have them "everywhere in the farm land". I didn't just fall off the onion truck. In Minnesota, maybe, Canada, certainly, Nebraska, Iowa, Kansas, sometimes but damned few and far between.


And Rorie, while I'm at it

This response submitted by George on 12/1/05 at 11:54 PM. ( ) 64.12.116.132

Of late, you've seemed to have become a rather smartmouthed guy who plays between being a beginner and a veteran. You've just appeared on this site and already you seem to have a chip on your shoulder with me. Anyone who swears by Krowtann will always get a wary eye from me, but before you go running your mouth about people who live in a hole, you'd be wise to look out for those carrying shovels.


i hate to be an

This response submitted by Joey Arender on 12/2/05 at 12:15 AM. ( J32a@aol.com ) 152.163.100.132

antagonizer. But I finally got the giggle in my gut. Thank you!


Iowa deer

This response submitted by jimsoverns on 12/2/05 at 3:11 AM. ( ironwolf_1@msn.com ) 65.54.154.45

20 to 22 inch neck would be considered a good sized buck,,but average,,24 inch would be considered a bruizer,,, you see them once in a while,,but not often,,27 inch would be considered an out right lie,,,,,,jim,,,,,from Iowa


now George you know i like you

This response submitted by paul e on 12/2/05 at 7:45 AM. ( amfpaul@bellsouth.net ) 70.156.89.99

i aggree with you on the cape sizes and the chip on rorys shoulder
but
and i know youve probably forgot more than i know
but i believe there are some pretty upstanding taxidermist that use krowtann
now i know all about the old alum. debate
and dont want to get into it
but time will tell i guess
lol
paul e


I agree Paul

This response submitted by George on 12/2/05 at 8:25 AM. ( georoof@aol.com ) 64.12.116.132

And in all honesty and sincerity, I hope that I'm absolutely wrong on that issue. I do hope this product is improved to the point that history doesn't repeat itself like I've lived through. I'd truly hate to see mounts falling apart in 10 to 15 years or less like they did in my early life. This is one of those times I hope I'm wrong - not for the product, but for the industry as a whole.


I don't think so

This response submitted by steve on 12/2/05 at 1:23 PM. ( ) 64.12.116.132

I've seen alot of huge Iowa bucks and a 27" neck measurement anywhere is unbelievable. I can see it maybe....over the hair. The buck I shot this year over the hair/tight to chin and behind ears was 25 1/2". The same carcass measurement was 21 1/2".

STEVE


<><>WOW<><>

This response submitted by EARL on 12/2/05 at 2:08 PM. ( ANTLERSANDWINGS@COMCAST.NET ) 68.82.184.251

I shot a buck this morning ,it grossed 198 as a 5x5.It had a 33 inch neck at the smallest diameter,39 four inches back ( Then I woke up )HeHeHeHe


minnesota

This response submitted by jt on 12/2/05 at 3:01 PM. ( jgt24@yahoo.com ) 65.165.173.1

I don't know where you are all writing from but in Minnesota a mature buck (3 1/2 on up) shot during the rut is more than likely going to have a neck of 24 inches. i would say out of the 60-70 deer heads we take in each year 75 % have a neck of around 22 inches but i would say that we get 10 with around a 24 inch neck and at least 2 or 3 with necks in the 25 - 26 inch range. 27 is not very common, maybe once every other year. i would doubt that even with the large racks in iowa and kansas that they are seeing many if any bucks with 27 inch necks.


George.........

This response submitted by RD on 12/2/05 at 5:55 PM. ( rcarlson@oct.net ) 158.247.221.78

I read your post to Rorie. I know we have never talked before, and maybe I am out of place to say this, but if you dont think 20 inch bucks are commonplace in Kansas, you better think again. I was in a deer camp last night caping a deer, and there were 5 bucks hanging. 4 of the 5 were 20 inches or over, and none of the hunters were even going to mount the deer. The guys who shot them didnt think they were very big. In fact they were all somewhat dissappointed that none of them would score much over 140. The truth is, at least in this area, 20 inch deer get shot all the time. You might not have fallen off the onion truck, but maybe you need to get off your soapbox. The buck I shot last year grossed 156, and had a 23 inch neck, and the one this year grossed 147, and he had a 22 inch neck. Around here, we call those nice deer. Both field dressed just over 200 lbs.


RD, it was a little more "in depth" than what you read

This response submitted by George on 12/2/05 at 7:45 PM. ( georoof@aol.com ) 205.188.116.74

Rorie's smartassed reply was to play down how common a 27 inch neck was. He said "over 20". Over 20 are not UNcommon here in Delaware. I shot a 2 1/2 8 point 3 weeks ago that had a 20/23 inch neck and field dressed out at 175. I get quite a few 21 inch necks here that field dress out at 200+ pounds. But a 27? Too far south for that to happen. I've done a few Kansas, Iowa, Illinois bucks and I've seen some 21's, but I've also seen some 18/19's like everyplace else. Only difference is, these were bowkills- pre-rut and some young deer. I've seen some northern Maine and some norther Minnesota with 23/24 and some Alabama with 12/13, so I do know a few things about size related to geography. Rorie's been trying to wind my clock for a few weeks now, thinking my battery was dead. I just used this post to blow my horn so he wouldn't be mistaken again soon.


huh

This response submitted by bob on 12/2/05 at 11:14 PM. ( ) 65.30.137.24

hey JT how the heck are u measuring? 24" neck is not 75% of your deer heads that is physically impossible. I hunt in buffalo county wisconsin and every year we shoot bucks in the boone and crockett class and the biggest i have ever done is a 24" and he was a 8 year old buck with a 8 3/4 nose. I also hunt iowa and montana. Its physically impossible for 75% of your deer to have necks that big dude


Too far south?

This response submitted by crittercoroner on 12/2/05 at 11:46 PM. ( ) 205.188.116.74

We take in a handfull every year topping 26-28 every year here in Jersey. Maybe our deer grow extra big from all the mercury and other garbage around here. Last I checked it was still quite a ride to make it up to the land up north.


20" uncommon?

This response submitted by MattC on 12/3/05 at 12:00 AM. ( ) 207.144.179.156

I am in Tennessee and 20" smal measurement caes are normal... I have several 22" and 23" capes every year . A couple even larger.


George. You maybe an old taxidermist but

This response submitted by Rorie on 12/3/05 at 2:06 AM. ( ) 67.141.92.228

You still dont know squat about deer and subspecies of deer.

Maybe you know a lot, but I read you still use a tanning cream, that says enough about you and your knowledge somewhat.

As for deer sized. I may have a few large capes for 2-31/2 year old left from Nebraska and even spike and fork horns hit 20, I see 5 year old deer that knock 35-28 often very often.

Duh, Last time I check Omaha is still the midwest by geographic standards, I admit I personally would call it out west, but its not my choice its a cartographers place to do so.

Yes I have seen a lot of locals in the area I talk of, highly disappointed because all they shot was a 150 B&C or less. Many dont mount the little ones.

Now the rack size place on the back burner, you better check the massive deer size compared to the Maryland deer. I have seen many many over 225 lbs. Even some of the 1 1/2 year olds reach 170-200lbs. Then you have to look at the really huge deer in the 250-300 lbs class. Just because you have not seen them or killed one, dont mean it aint so.

The one thing thats hold you back from being an ok Guy George, is you generalize everything and if you have not done it it aint so.

You have a lot of knowledge to share, but dont berate anyone who says something just because you have not seen it.

Krowtann works, your shop dont smell of mildewed and molded spoiled hides, when using it.

I tryed your Rineharts crap, and every other cream tan on the market. The dont work as well as Krowtann.

You can tell that by how someones shop stinks of rotten flesh. Same for Spray tan and DP.

Matter of fact I will DP before I use any cream tan.

So what if a Krowtanned mount dont last 50 years? Most of us will be out of taxidermy in 50 years.

As for your seeing the acid rot problems at the Smithsonian.
I venter to say they mounts get less care than those in most homes, those are old mounts, what do you expect out of old mounts anyway.

You have paper forms, dextrine paste, that alone swelling and shrinking over 30 years can cause problems.

Again your arguement don't hold water.

My bet is this, the one thing you have endorsed that is everything you say it is, is Epo-Grip 2 part hide adhesive it is everything you old timers on here say it is and more, its great stuff.

I have tanned using everything under the sun and find, you dont need a fricken BOIL TEST, what for I am not boiled a hide for anyone.

You say somethng that are certianly usefull. But you are not the end all of the taxidermy gurus. I certainly know I am not but I do know enough to search for a better product.

People a lot more knowledgable than you endorse Krowtann.

YOu are able to pick fron what you want to mount, someday many of us will be able to do that also.

Until then we the common people working to establish our business and produce a quality product must deal with Freezer Burned ears, holes in capes, caping out a deerhead, bloody birds, stinking fish and so on.

I bet in the past you have too, you are to proud to admitt there is a starting place and a place where you become complacent with what you are taking in for future work.

The people who are to good to do the extra to good to go the extra mile for a few items to work on need to remember.

We are at the bottom of the food chain in taxidermy and are or should be eager to learn how to handle the messes you guys are to good to, yep I will take part of your rejection work.

I have kids to feed, bills to pay and a showroom to build.

I see lots of oldtimers getting burned out they just want to bitch and do the perfect cape or specimen. Good for you. Thats fine. You have paid your dues.

Me on the other hand instead of turning away the fox thats blown in half with a .243 I will take the work, give the client a shoulder mount, I will save part of the work and make some of the money and put that skin in Krowtann and put a smile on my clients face and $$$$$ in my pocket.

I also bet there are more of us in this boat than in your boat.

Smartmouthed? Pot calling the kettle black, George.

Haalaluya Praise be Georgeorgeorge the name that keeps going on and on, like his mouth.


Maybe you missread my post.

This response submitted by Rorie on 12/3/05 at 2:13 AM. ( ) 67.141.92.228

When I lived in Omaha I got one or two fo these a year out of the 30 or so heads I mounted

One or two a year out of 30 or so head.

George tell me whats the windchill with a 30mph wind and +5F.

Its very easy for someone in Iowa, Nebraska, Kansas to get into trouble with http://www.hypothermia.org. Maybe you should live a winter on the high plains, nothing between you and the northpole but a barbed wire fence and its down.

Do you realize each and every year someone dies on the Plains from freezing to death? And the still call it the midwest for some reason.

Check it out you may learn something or are you too old.


Sorry I meant to tell you frostbite, chillblane

This response submitted by Rorie on 12/3/05 at 2:18 AM. ( ) 67.141.92.228

Winter in Grand Forks or call the people who work in Kearney at Cabelas and ask them.

Seems like Van Dykes was just closed due to ice and snow.

Cold weather and wind are killers.

What has this to do with Whitetail deer size?

Body mass to keep them warm in the inclimate weather.


chat

This response submitted by christine on 12/3/05 at 10:55 AM. ( cmatuse@gmail.com ) 65.19.65.91

I appreciate this site for the great wealth of information it has to offer as well as all of the great advice everyone has. Everyone is entitled to their opinion here in the United States. If people want to disagree and wish to discuss it further, why not arrange a time and use the chat instead of posting arguements or email privately if an email address is available.

All of the bickering just seems to downgrade the professionalism that you all have (not myself, I'm don't do enough work to consider myself a professional!) It just seems like a waste of space to post useless bickering.

It would also be nice if when a person asks a question rather than say USE THE ORANGE BUTTON or post a wise remark, simply don't respond. Why do people have to be so hostile when someone asks a question? If they don't get a response maybe they will then research it.

I'm sure this will stir up more issues and there will be more arguements because of my post. I'm just a little doe in a big field of bucks full of testosterone and should probably just keep my mouth shut, but you know how us ladies tend to be. We never shut up.

As far as the neck size goes, heck, I'm in Vermont and if i would say to see a deer in my neck of the woods is rare, doesn't matter what neck size they have. The only deer i have seen are the ones standing behind posted signs :)


Christine, what happens is when someone says No.

This response submitted by Rorie on 12/3/05 at 5:47 PM. ( ) 67.141.92.228

I made the comment that out of very 30 or so whitetail deer I took in I would get one or two with the 27 inch neck measurment.

Know it all George says NOWAY it canot happen the deer on the upper midwest and Great plains cant grow that big...

Well he does not know and I really doubt his ability to realize size he has never lived there, but he still knows all about the deer.

You can ask almost any established taxidermist from Iowa, Nebraska, Kansas, North Missouri, South Dakota if they ever take in a deer that the measurment over the 1st atlas of the neck goes over 25 They will say yes, every year.

But George knwos it all, sorry but this time GEORGE is wrong wrong wrong. Every year I take in one that I have to take the largest form McKinzie makes and split it and add a couple to four inches.

I learn that from reading on here how Bill Yox does it.

I may have a cape or two that size left in my freezer, as I clean them up and empty then this spring I will look and photograph them.

Many many deer 250-300lbs and I have seen some larger than 300lbs.

Deer dont have to be from Canada to be that big.


rorie take a pill

This response submitted by terryr on 12/3/05 at 8:39 PM. ( ) 12.207.33.102

..


Hey I do live in the midwest!

This response submitted by John W. on 12/3/05 at 10:14 PM. ( ) 12.215.63.237

All I can say is I get a couple customers in occasionally who swear they have killed a buck with a 30 inch neck,just happened last week as a matter of fact.The customer asked me if I had a catalog that had a hog neck like his buck.Then he brought the deer in.He had measured the neck half way down the neck and over the hair of course.I then informed him how the real measurements are taken.Half an hour later measuring over the carcass the true measurement was 22 inches.The average buck I take in are between 18-20inches.The bigger bruisers will run 22-24 inches.I'm not saying bigger bucks don't exist,they do,there just very rare,and most often when I hear stories like these I'm skeptical until I can see the buck for myself,cause most of the time it's just a little misunderstanding.


Illinois

This response submitted by John W. on 12/3/05 at 10:16 PM. ( ) 12.215.63.237

Forgot to mention what hole I came out of.


I Agree With George on This One

This response submitted by Mike on 12/4/05 at 1:23 PM. ( ) 208.252.179.22

The biggest buck I've ever taken in (or seen) was a 8 1/4" X 24" brute that feild dressed 259 (I shot it). The buck was a November full rut beast too. I've gotten specimins in from all over including Montana, Wyoming, Nebraska, Kansas, Wisconsin, Michigan, Canada and many other areas. I've also hunted in over a dozen different states and provences and prime areas on high quality outfitted hunts too, and I've never seen anything that would come close to 30". I'm a skeptic.


hey bob

This response submitted by jt on 12/5/05 at 9:13 AM. ( jgt24@yahoo.com ) 65.165.173.1

bob, do you need help with your reading? my message said that 75% of my deer have 22 inch necks not 24 inch necks. i said that of about the 60-70 heads i get in a year, 10 or so have a 24 inch neck. the buck i shot last year scored 154 and had a 24 inch neck. it was shot in se minnesota. some of you talk about how people are measuring wrong. well if the form fits then i guess we aren't measuring wrong are we. i agree with the comment about bickering, it always seems like there are the know it alls out there. at the same time though there always seem to be the bullcrappers too. i guess it all starts with the first message that was posted on this topic by thomas. what i would like to say to him is that unless this is your first deer mount don't even post a question like that. haven't you ever measured a neck before? and if you are just starting out then go to the beginner section.


Okay George...

This response submitted by RD on 12/5/05 at 1:30 PM. ( rcarlson@oct.net ) 158.247.221.78

I understand what you were saying now George. I think you are right about the neck sizes. I think that a large part of the misunderstanding is due to differences in the way people measure. How do different people measure the same deer and get totally different sizes? And how in the world can all these people with crazy measurements be getting anything to fit on a form? I guess the operative word is "FIT". I am a beginner, and I still have trouble getting things to fit right from time to time. I prefer to use smaller forms than to try and stretch a 20 inch deer into a 22 incher.


$285 reserve not met

This response submitted by Thomas on 12/7/05 at 6:32 PM. ( ) 4.155.21.81

there's about 2+ hrs left on this cape $285 reserve not met.it has an
open T incision with a tape laid across 27in. clearly,right behind the ears & 31in. taken mid neck!


Rorie, nurses have an acronym for you

This response submitted by George on 12/7/05 at 10:15 PM. ( ) 205.188.116.74

It's FOS. Now that's full regardless if you're measuring from the bottom or the top of the bucket. I didn't call you a liar because I save that word for special people and you haven't earned that...YET. But you're making pretty fair progress.


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