I have used many different forms over the years and I seem to keep coming back to Joe Meder's line of forms. The past 3 months have consumed my days mounting numerous whitetails from the winter. Constantly, I am finding a reoccurring "problem" with these forms. So, I am coming to the forum experts for opinions and ideas. Many of my customers like the Upright (actually a typical Semi-upright, by most companies standards) Meder form. I am really noticing the space difference between the head block and the lateral crease of the head/neck junction on these mannikins. Not all, but on many of these forms, the turn side of the head has a narrower space. Basically, there is less room to form the ear butt and even position the ear. The out side curve of the lateral head is roomy and there is not "space" problem for shaping an anatomically correct ear butt. I have used this forms for numerous years and have never really noticed this problem until this years. Am I losing my mind or did this line of mannikins just acquire this problem. Have they always had this problem. Note: not all models have the head/neck juction problem. I am sure Yoxy will inform me of some physiological/anatomical fact I didn't know and I will feel stupid. Any ideas or is anyone else noticing this?
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I use these forms excsluvily and have never had this problem. I havent had this happen on the upright. I realy dont understand what exactly is the problem. Is the head block too narrow?
I don't use Meder but it sounds like you are saying with a turned pose the "turned to" side is too crowded (not enough space) to form a correct ear butt?
I promise it is there. Whitey don't just observe on, look at several different ones. A friend of mine in Arkansas just stated the same thing. He wanted to know what was up. Who knows? Whitey look at the space on the side of the head to attach your ear.
"Then stop using them." LOL I've noticed it on a couple myself, but I figured it was just me. Glad to know it's not.
The turn is made at the top of the neck instead of in front of the shoulders. The neck can not turn at the axis, atlas joint. This causes the problem you are having. If you make the neck turn accurately at the shoulders the deerhead will roll of the wall. It will not hang on the wall. The center of balance would be off.
I am trying to follow, but you are losing me a little. I fully understand the anatomy and physiology of the atlas and axis on the vertebral column of the deer. I am saying, temporal surface on the form is less on the turn side that on the non-turn side. It seems to be on a large portion of the mannikins available, but not on all of them. Today, I mounted on a 645 (I believe) and they were equal. (No earbutt problems or crowding. My point originally was that I have used these for years and like them very much (George). (Plus I ordered a ton of them earlier in the year.) This year and this year only I noticed this inconsistancy in this one surface area. I a wondering if they have been remolded and an inaccuracy has been created in a great form? Maybe the placement of the head blocks is causing the problem. Either that or they have always been this way and I have never noticed. I may be wrong but, ungulates temporal area does not roll into the neck muscles and disappear when they turn their head. This has to be an inaccuracy. Has it always been there? I turned 40 this year, this old age thing is getting worse. I can only imagine what George is feeling.
I am still re-reading your post trying to understand what you are telling me.
You say, "the turn is made at the top of the neck." I assume you are referring to the joint formed between the atlas facets and occipital condyles of the skull. This is a free moving joint that should allow a "yes" nod type range of movement. Then you state, "the neck can not turn at the axis/atlas joint?" The joint formed between the altas and axis is also a free moving joint. Allowing a pivoting "no" action . The rest of the between joints in the cervical vertebrae column are slightly movable, only permitting slight movements. But a collection of the slight movements still causes a turning action. This doesn't drastical change just because the neck meets the shoulders, it just gets a few more joints involved. Not nearly as drastic as some inaccurate deer mannikins on the market. So, help me out here, I am lost on your reasoning for the inconsistancies of the line of forms. I think the Meder is pretty accurate in the neck turn area. Re-read what I originally wrote to make sure we are on the same wave length.
Theres certain names, and products that no matter how I comment, I cant win. Words will be put into my mouth, as theres distinct "camps" out there. Im sure you get my drift. Therefore I dont grade or comment on them so I CANNOT be misinterpreted...
That having been said, I know what you are describing. Think of it this way, the turn side SHOULD crowd the earbutt with the humeralis muscle, etc. Its sorta like putting ears back on a sneak mount. Its tight, but with the anatomy in place, it works. Youll experience a tight skin and wrinkles, but its correct.
why is it not there on all of his forms. Has it always been there on these forms?
Take a dead deer and try to turn the head. It will turn gradually but most of the turn occurs just in front of the shoulders. Now take your form and look at it from the top and you will notice an inaccurate turn right behind the head. The only way that could happen is if the neck was broken. The atlas,axis joint cannot do that. Forms are sculpted so they hang on the wall, keeping their center of gravity where they will not roll over when the kids slam the door. To get more turn, forms are sculpted with an unnatural turn behind the head creating the crowding you are experiencing. Off-set shoulder forms try to get more turn without that funky crook to the neck.
Yeah I have noticed that this year. I thought that in a full upright it should be that way. I thought you were saying that the head block is on there lop sided. I will keep using them, if Bill Yox says its okay its okay. If anybody knows deer anatomy its him.
Above is my understanding of the physiology of a deer turning its neck. The two major areas where most of the motion is created is the combination movements of the skull to atlas movements and the atlas to axis movements. ("Yes" combined with "no" to create a angular move. The other greatest movement is where the neck meets the shoulder. This is involving more joints creating a more drastic movement. It is still not pure a vertebral movement at this point. Where the cervical meets the thoracic is still only slightly movable. Add in all the various pectoral girdle movements and you get a more drastic turn. All the joints in between these two areas only create a minor portion of a turn movement. So your statement still puzzles me. Are you my Nebraska buddy?
Thanks Whitey, for your comments. You are the first state you noticed it this year. Anyway,,,,, they are great forms and I still use them and recommend them.
Please, while its nice of you to say so, dont give me the credit, Joe sculpted those forms! As for the movement, I disagree, they CAN do that. Its simply a matter of rotation at the neck/head juncture, and hinging at the neck/shoulder juncture, and finally some flexion in between. The crowding is due to the musclature being so heavy in the rut. I dont happen to use the Meder form, just a few in the past, so I cant speak specifically on each form.
move their head sideways at the atlas/axis joint. Just watch a video of a deer walking away especially from a tall blind (from above). I don't know the exact degree they can turn it to but I'd dare say it's closer to 90 degrees than 0 degrees, in other words over 45 degrees. And, I'm talking about them doing it without any base neck movement. I agree with Bill on this and of course, who wouldn't? I wish we could have captive live mule deer here in UT like you guys keeping and raising white-tails in the east.
Trying to argue the physiology and anatomy of a white tail deer with some of the best in the buisness like Bill and Kenneth is just plain crazy in my book. No one knows everything there is to know about physiology and anatomy of the white tail deer but it's hard to argue with the experiance and the knowlage of those two guys.