Lysol for fish

Submitted by RD Carlson on 6/16/06 at 11:19 AM. ( americancash@kansas.net ) 158.247.221.78

I have been studying how to properly prepare my first fish for mounting (largemouth bass). I am either going to use the borax solution or denatured alcohol. I see some people are using Lysol in their solutions. I thought that the Lysol they make now doesnt have the bacteriacide chemical in it that it used to back in the 80's. I have been strongly advised against using it on mammals. Are there any concerns with it causing scales to come off, etc?

Return to Fish Taxidermy Category Menu


I use lysol in my borax solution with no problems

This response submitted by Cecil 64.184.41.234 on 6/16/06 at 11:24 AM. ( ) 64.184.41.53

Just because lysol doesn't have phenol doesn't mean it's not effective on bacteria. It does say "kills germs" and it's a disinfectant doesn't it?


Lysol

This response submitted by DaveT on 6/16/06 at 11:29 AM. ( ) 24.32.84.11

Does not kill bacteria and has an extremely high PH. Don't seem to bother fish too much but it can ruin hides. I would and so use Rittle's bactericide in it's place... far superior product

DaveT


You need to look up the words

This response submitted by Cecil 64.184.41.234 on 6/16/06 at 11:49 AM. ( ) 64.184.41.53

"bactericidal", "disinfectant", and the understand what the phrase "kills germs" means Dave. It's right on the damn bottle. You can't miss it. Just because some nimrod says it's no good because it no longer has phenol doesn't mean you have to believe it.

Anyone out there is welcome to try the following:

Put a freshly skinned fish skin in just a borax solution

Put another freshly skinned fish skin in a borax solution with a few cap fulls of lysol

The difference is as different as day and night. In a couple of days one smells and looks like toilet water the other one does not.

But what do I know? Certified master taxidermist and been doing fish for 24 years.

Come on Dave. This is a bad as when you told me it's cheaper to cast your own trout heads.


Cecil

This response submitted by RD Carlson on 6/16/06 at 11:50 AM. ( ) 158.247.221.78

Is there any need to use Lysol in a denatured alcohol/water solution, or does the alcohol take care of all the bacteria concerns? I understand that Lysol kills bacteria of course, I just wondered if it was safe for fish since it is now considered harmful to mammals. I didn't think you would use it if there were problems, but I like to be thorough.


Bottle labels

This response submitted by Glen Conley on 6/16/06 at 12:37 PM. ( g.conley@verizon.net ) 70.105.121.132

It is in violation of Federal Law to use this product for anything other than intended. Sez somethin' to that effect on the label too, huh?

It will also point out it can be used on ceramic tile, glass, formica, and plastic, but notice it sez nothing about grout lines. So does that mean if you color it on the grout lines, you go to the Big House?

If you read a little more, you will find active ingredients to be ammonium chloride, which is also the common active ingredient of most common "dish liquids".

Ammonium chloride is also classed as an organic binder. Notice the lack of organics in the first materials named.

To advertise with words that end in "cide" is making what is called a kill claim. That then comes under scrutiny of FDA and EPA, and must be approced by both. Each claim must be verified by an independent testing laboratory. Ceramic tile is 1, glass is 2, formica is 3, and so on. That could get pretty pricey in verifications.

The amount of organics available for bonding is going to influence the effectiveness. Organics are pretty abundant in skins...

For the Junior Rocket Scientist Spearmint Cecil described, and if one should get the same end results, that would leave the immediate question of did the Lysol kill the bacteria, or by bonding to the proteins in the skin, did it alter the structure of the proteins in such a manner as to make them resistant to enzymes and acids produced by bacteria that can tend to break organics down into their next simplest form? So many questions, so little time. Can't remember all the bloomin' answers any hoo, the older ya get the more of 'em ya ferget.

Proteins can take am acid, neutral or base form, and do that for a living.

With it being alkaline doesn't mean it is going to destruct the protein, but when exposed to acids, you will find it to be quite reactionary. That reaction could be viewed as what may cause potential dammages to skins.

Most generally, you might want to be looking at the chloride as being what is making the bond, just like you would with sodium chloride or potassium chloride (everyone is thinking, I know those two).


Fat fingered the Hell

This response submitted by Glen on 6/16/06 at 12:40 PM. ( ) 70.105.121.132

out the keyboard didn't I? The fingers were just too tired to lift up to any great heights.


new myself

This response submitted by doug on 6/16/06 at 1:00 PM. ( ) 216.198.102.9

When u talk about lysol for fish what else do u use with it? I only know of borax, glycerine,zinc sulphate, and basacryl any other suggestions would be appreciated , and also a simple degreaser thank you


Many recipes

This response submitted by Doug on 6/16/06 at 1:33 PM. ( ) 198.111.220.97

There are plenty of effective recipes for the preservation of fish skins. Some are simple and use as few a two ingredients and other much more elaborate. You can't argue with success, and all of these veterans have been very successful with that they use...eh? Just don't get them started on which recipe is better or best.(LOL) That said, you can do no better than to follow Cecil's advice. I've seen their work, and while Dave does a decent fish, they're certainly not up to the quality of what Cecil produces.


Cecil

This response submitted by DaveT on 6/16/06 at 1:47 PM. ( ) 24.32.84.11

Cecil, wow and you are the one who says how lenient folks should be of another person's opinion?

It is funny but on the Lysol web page they go out of their way to state what products of theirs kills 99% of germs, the brown bottle IS NOT one of them. http://www.lysol.com/solutionsfinder_apcleaners.shtml

As to your little experiment: Try making some dextrin hide paste with your beloved brown Lysol, let it sit for a week and see if bacteria grows in it. With Rittles' it does not at least for months in 90+ degree temperatures. So I have my opinion and I know what the PH is for Lysol... using it for hides is not a smart practice.

Last you wrote: "But what do I know? Certified master taxidermist and been doing fish for 24 years. "

Who gives a rat butt? I myslef have been doing fish over 29 years, what does that matter? Does that validate your fish ability? Go put one of your fish next to Bruch's, Sexton's, Screibeis's or one of the Colorado fish guys and then you will know what a Master Fish Taxidermist really looks like.

To the guy who asked about using Lysol in tans. Lysol works like soap and requires a higher PH which is exactly what you DO NOT want in your tan or acid bath. Fish skins can be soaked in plain water and not fall apart. But please do not take my word on it, check with Bruce Rittle or one of the tan manufactures, as I am sure they know a lot more about Lysol and it's PH level, then our resident "Certified Master Fish Taxidermist."

DaveT


Bless you Glen

This response submitted by George on 6/16/06 at 1:54 PM. ( georoof@aol.com ) 64.12.116.13

And Cecil, after all these years, you're a closet Lysol user? SHAME.
R.D., do yourself a favor. Skin and flesh your fish. Soak it in clear water for 30 to 40 minutes, rinse. Then in a bucket with 50/50 denatured alcohol, put your fish. (you can add some borax is you'd like, but it serves no purpose other than morale boosting). Let the fish set overnight, remove it, wash it and mount it or simply freeze it till your body is ready to mount. Methanol works just as well in the same solution.


Doug

This response submitted by DaveT on 6/16/06 at 1:55 PM. ( ) 24.32.84.11

Doug, When have you seen one of my fish? Please name the time,place and fish as I think you are full of it. Was it when you were at Cecil's? LOL What is your website so i can see your work? I have seen Cecil's.

Anyone who is interested in my work can see pics at my website and then make up their own mind.


DaveT


Sorry

This response submitted by RD on 6/16/06 at 2:26 PM. ( ) 158.247.221.78

I guess I should apologize? I was not aware that this was such a hot button issue :). I just wanted to be sure that my fish would be OK. I am not a chemist, but I am studying these things trying to find out what to use and how much, etc. I appreciate the serious answers.


LOL!

This response submitted by marty on 6/16/06 at 2:28 PM. ( ) 24.15.109.214

Must be something in the air!

I had to check Doug's IP address to make sure it wasn't CECIL - lol! Doug, you need to quit stroking Cecil, his head is BIG enough (just kidding Cecil). Seriously, anybody with two eyes and 20/20 vision can SEE that both Dave and Cecil do some top notch work.

As far as "Certified Master Taxidermist" goes, I am one as well. I JUST printed up my little certificate that says so - so there - lol!


Not that it matters

This response submitted by DaveT on 6/16/06 at 2:39 PM. ( ) 24.32.84.11

http://www.alpharubicon.com/basicnbc/lysolbottle.htm
http://householdproducts.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/household/brands?tbl=brands&id=18001075

RD it will not hurt your fish in anyway, but in all honesty lysol adds no value. If you wnat to use a true bacteria killer use Rittle's or one of hte other bacteriacides with low a PH. If you use borax, I would limit my soak time to under 24 hours as it CAN get under scales and it does loosen scale pockets on large scaled fish. Now I have left some stripers in borax for months, however, I am always happier when I keep a borax soak under 24 hours.

Congratulations Marty.. well deserved... he he

DaveT


I DUNNO...

This response submitted by Marc on 6/16/06 at 2:46 PM. ( ) 75.8.44.29

since everyones all in a huff, I just feel like I should be in the middle here somewhere,hahaha! Must be gettn old!


So DaveT

This response submitted by Jason Branch on 6/16/06 at 3:14 PM. ( ) 208.27.203.124

What's your web address?


http://wildlifecreations.biz/

This response submitted by DaveT on 6/16/06 at 3:36 PM. ( ) 24.32.84.11

It is listed under wildlife creations in Texas
http://wildlifecreations.biz/

DaveT


awsome

This response submitted by jj on 6/16/06 at 4:10 PM. ( ) 71.227.204.246

The way that fence and sideing bring out the detail.


glad you like it JJ

This response submitted by DaveT on 6/16/06 at 4:26 PM. ( ) 24.32.84.11

I don't charge extra for the siding/fence pics on my wholesale work
:-)

DaveT


Oh Goody...another Internet Brawl!

This response submitted by Dennis on 6/16/06 at 6:19 PM. ( ) 69.211.90.9

You know why they put the worm in tequila? To show that with a certain percentage of alcohol, you will kill germs. If you use 50/50 water/alcohol mix ( I like Stoli best) you have 100 proof equivalent.The alcohol removes much of the fish odor, as well as some grease, although not all of it. Even if Lysol is a germ killer, it may not be if you don't use it straight up and dilute it. It will not matter if you put Lysol in or not with the alcohol mix. As for borax, that supposedly got started when somebody looked for an insect repellent to replace deadly arsenic.It may repel insects, but it does not have any much value as a preservative. Any saturated solution of many salts (brine) will have some germ killing power. This is why plain old salt is used as a preservative. It will not kill everything though. Borax will not either. I used to use borax and Lysol and had all kinds of crud and corruption growing in my pickling solution. Go with the 50/50 mix and you will be fine. If you use vodka instead of denatured, you can produce a nice fish liqueur that gets better with age!


Good old one upsmanship is alive and well!(LOL)

This response submitted by Doug on 6/16/06 at 6:21 PM. ( ) 198.111.220.218

The issue is one of ingredients in a fish skin soak fellas. HUFF HUFF is right Marty!(LOL) We can all see the fish that these two fellows did on their websites. Cecil has the credentials of a proven top notch fish taxidermist, and being a Master Fish Taxidermist is something we all should respect...eh? The fish on his website don't have curled fins, shrunken heads, improperly set eyes, and misaligned pectoral fins. We know what to look for don't we? I hear someone HUFFING.(LOL) I'm not getting into this because my fish pale before the work of these two men. That said, if Cecil says lysol works IT WORKS.
BTW George. Your opinion of the uselessness of borax in a fish skin soak is shared by almost no one. Hark...is that HUFFING I hear(LOL)!


Uh, Doug, before you castigate "almost no one", ASK THEM

This response submitted by George on 6/16/06 at 6:38 PM. ( ) 64.12.116.13

Or you COULD click that orange SEARCH icon and see how MOST who addressed the borax in the solution thought it was "useless". I know you probably can't afford to spring for a copy of Matt Thompson's video on mounting and finishing largemouth bass, but if you do, would you please PLEASE tell everyone on here what Matt used as a preservative on his demo bass. (Just a hint. Just what part of NOTHING would you be able to understand. LMAO) Of course, Matt Thompson doesn't know anything about fish anyway, does he?


LOL

This response submitted by DaveT on 6/16/06 at 7:30 PM. ( ) 24.32.84.11

George, give up you can't argue with advanced fish pond chemists.

Doug, I know this will catch you off, but some folks actually PUT curve into their fish fins? Shrunken heads and misaligned pecs fins LMAO. You keep worshipping Cecil, some of us do know better.

The title of Master Fish Taxidermist is subjective at best. I certainly don't consider myself a master but I have studied under some of the very best in the world. So I know a blow hard and his tag along when I see one :-)

By the way, where are the pictures of your work?

DaveT


Dave

This response submitted by Terry on 6/16/06 at 7:35 PM. ( go_tigers90@yahoo.com ) 64.74.177.136

I have seen Cecil's site in the past but have trouble getting it to load on my home computer. I seem to remember that I thought the photos I saw looked nice.

Just took a look at your fish, on your website... they looked really decent to me. Humility is nice but it appears you do top notch work.

To all... enjoy the weekend. And to all the fathers out there (I am one myself)... Happy Father's Day.

Terry


Dave T. to be clear here

This response submitted by Cecil 64.184.41.234 on 6/16/06 at 8:30 PM. ( ) 64.184.41.53

I did not say one word about your quality of work vs. mine. To go on a tirade and attack me about it is unfair (although I did get a kick out of how Doug got your panties in a wad LOL).

And just for the record, I didn't just make up the certified master taxidermist thing. I earned it. I can assure you it wasn't easy and I'm damn proud of it. My state has a certification program and once you earn the amount of points needed in competitions you qualify as a master taxidermist. You of all people should know they don't hand this stuff out. But the awards are no longer important to me, and I'd rather get paid well by my customers on a regular basis. I do want to compete some more but my business, my work, and my students have a higher priority right now.

I can excuse Marty because he finds all kinds of excuses not to compete. But you should know better.

As far as the borax and lysol it works for me. And it's a lot cheaper than the denatured alcohol. I also don't like to work with solvents if I don't have to due to their link to brain tumors. Two of my relatives have died of brain tumors and one more is terminal. If I may have a predispostion to it I'm not going to make it easier.

I'm a big believer in the axiom "If it ain't brook don't fix it. I have a bass on the wall that was preserved with borax and lysol way 16 years ago ( I know because of the trophy plate on the panel) and it looks just as good as the day I finished it.

BTW I'm not using the brown bottle of lysol.


Now just a horsehaired minute Cecil

This response submitted by George on 6/16/06 at 9:08 PM. ( ) 64.12.116.13

Because I got my drivers license from Sears and Roebuck doesn't make make a graduate of the Bondurant School of Defensive Driving. That "master fish taxidermist" crap always gets my panties in a wad (when my wife doesn't find out I'm wearing them). "Master" anything is a crop of crap. I once caught a master kung fu sensi (or what the hell ever they call themselves) trying to break into my truck. He found out I carried a master .38 snubnose in my coat pocket and suddenly his title paled in comparison to mine. Being big fish in small pounds is always great until the dam breaks. A good friend of mine, Dave Toms, says it best: "The title of Master Fish Taxidermist is subjective at best." If it wasn't, every good taxidermist would be one eventually.


Like I said Cecil

This response submitted by DaveT on 6/16/06 at 9:12 PM. ( ) 24.32.84.11

Master taxidermist is very subjective. Gathering points at a state show is easy enough. Kind of depends on how many fish are in the show, who is judging, etc... if you know what I mean. You want to see a Master, go see Dave Campbell or Clark Schreibeis... those guys are masters and as far as I know neither have received a master fish taxidermist piece of paper? I doubt you will find anyone who does better work or knows more about fish.

By the way, I did not attack your work? What would I have to gain by that? I do not compare my fish to yours, thought never even entered my mind.

Doug, well let's just say I am still waiting to see his work. but after his critique I guess I shouldn't put curves in fins anymore LOL.

You want to use lysol go right ahead. I voiced my OPINION on the matter.

DaveT


Just a fish guy

This response submitted by Rick Krane on 6/16/06 at 10:01 PM. ( rmkinc1@msn.com ) 70.109.173.233

Ohhh My!


"Depends on who judges", Dave?

This response submitted by Cecil 64.184.41.234 on 6/16/06 at 10:04 PM. ( ) 64.184.41.53

I thought better of you. Do you mean to tell me you're of the same genre that comes on here and puts down competitions and says it's all favoritism the ribbons are just given away? I can see George pooh poohing something he can't achieve and making excuses on why he doesn't compete, but I expected better of you. I would have thought your quality is where it's at because of competing.

Has it ever occurred to you how those people you look up to got their reputation? I can assure you it was by competing and you know it.

George I'm not even going to respond to your post. As usual it typical coming from a blow hole.


Howdy Richard

This response submitted by Cecil 64.184.41.234 on 6/16/06 at 10:09 PM. ( ) 64.184.41.53

Like the fireworks? Care to explain how you're being a master taxidermist is just a marketing ploy? Seems some others here think so. LOL


Cecil

This response submitted by DaveT on 6/16/06 at 10:32 PM. ( ) 24.32.84.11

Why must you always try to twist things? no one said it was a marketing ploy, those are your words.

Sorry but it does matter on what state show you compete in. I have never put down competitions but facts are facts. You don't believe me take your happy little butt up to PA or MI and compete, or try your hand at the world show and you will quickly see the difference.

Dave T


And how would you know this Dave?

This response submitted by Cecil 64.184.41.234 on 6/16/06 at 11:01 PM. ( ) 64.184.41.53

Have you ever competed in Indiana?

I hate to break this to you but many of the same judges judge at all the shows. All those masters you look up to like Tom Sexton have been to our show at least once. Richard's judged at our show as has Bill Yox with gameheads etc. etc. And I did very well in the masters category with Tom as our fish judge thank you very much.

I've even judged shows myself believe it or not.

BTW I was referring to George's comments when I commented on the marketing ploy thing -- not you. You did read where he compared certification to getting a driver's license?

And I'm waiting for the blowhole to come back to pontificate. He should be back any time now.


Heay Dennis...

This response submitted by Marc on 6/16/06 at 11:16 PM. ( ) 75.7.242.143

Fish licqueur? I like that! How bout "fish elixer"? Now we can REALLY start arguing about recipes!


Ok Cecil

This response submitted by DaveT on 6/17/06 at 1:08 AM. ( ) 24.32.84.11

You win, you are a legend, now go to the world show and unleash your Indiana magic on them OK?


DaveT


I don't know...I get into these "discussions"

This response submitted by Dennis on 6/17/06 at 1:16 AM. ( ) 69.212.20.196

Maybe I need more social interaction, but these debates are fun. Crap, if it works, use it! Zinc sulphate...why not barium sulfate or potassium sulfate (alum)? Lots of crap can help deter bacteria, but not eliminate it. However, did you ever see any microbes growing in 80 proof alcohol? If you Really want to kill germs, and maybe your family, formalin will do it. I once followed advice of an antiquated book on taxidermy blah blahing about how, if one wished to save tender scales, just brush on the formalin. Oh, it worked, but the skin was so stiff I could barely get it on the form. An added benefit of alcohol is it helps fish dry faster and stink less.
As for fish licqueur, if you use anchovies, ( or smelt if you are a Sconnie) you get a nice Ceasar dressing taste in time. Bon apetit!


"Crap, if it works, use it!"

This response submitted by Doug on 6/17/06 at 7:17 AM. ( ) 198.111.220.232

That's where this thread could have, and probably should have ended. Now it has expanded to cover borax, competition, interstate rivalry, personalities, and what your last name is. In what profession is one-upsmanship more prevalent than taxidermy? Maybe professional wrestling?(LOL)
1. If it were Gary Bruch or Rick Krane in this discussion of Master Fish Taxidermist, I doubt that Dave would be disrespectful of the title. He's got issues with Cecil that have nothing to do with a fish.
2. I repeat that I have no horn to toot about the fish I do. Anyone, especially Dave, would find plenty to criticize them about. My fish probably compare to that crappie on Dave's website...eh? HUFF HUFF!(LOL)
3. Hey Rick. Good to see you chime in here, although it was mighty brief. I wonder if George knows that you, a Master Fish taxidermist, uses BORAX in your fish prep soak? Now why does a superb fish guy like you use an ingedient when it "has no purpose?"(LOL)
Just a little more fuel on this BONFIRE!(LOL)


Doug I think you've got it...use CRAP!

This response submitted by Rich B. on 6/17/06 at 8:18 AM. ( ) 74.65.18.69

Oh no that probably wouldn't work to deter bugs...I always see a lot of flys buzzing around that stuff;)


Doug, you and Cecil will never "GET IT"

This response submitted by George on 6/17/06 at 9:29 AM. ( ) 205.188.117.13

Cecil still thinks Indiana is the center of the known universe though Pennsylvania, Texas, and California have some rather heavy footprints to get out of.

And speaking of "blow holes", Cecil I know several "world champions" who claim their titles from before there ever was a World Show. And the HUGE difference between you, Doug and the real "masters" is their claims. I've had the great pleasure to be around guys like Paul Borkowski, Rick Krane, Frank Kotula, Gary Bruch, and George Dante. In MY MIND, these guys are "masters". I can think that and I can call them that, but I don't think I've ever heard a single one of THEM ever claim to be anything other than a taxidermist. I have a couple certificates claiming I'm a master at things like tiddlywinks and persimmon seed spitting. SO WHAT. Until and unless someone THINKS you're a master, you aren't. da Vinci, Van Gogh, Monet, and Matisse are all today considered part of a group called "The Great Masters", yet I don't recall any of them ever laying claim to that title.

Cecil, you could very well be considered a master fish taxidermist, but sometimes your horn is blowing so loud you can't hear those of us who might be willing to admit that. Give modesty try and be less pretentious. The cream rises to the top, but cow sh1t sinks to the bottom. Stop looking for that last glass of milk.


And no one ever DID answer me

This response submitted by George on 6/17/06 at 9:33 AM. ( ) 205.188.117.13

Did any of you watch Matt Thompson mount the bass on his video. "WHAT SOLUTION DID HE USE?"


Doug

This response submitted by DaveT on 6/17/06 at 9:52 AM. ( ) 24.32.84.11

I guess my wholesale (crappie) would compare with your fish LMAO. We can all see what you learned while attending cecil's and it soen't have anything to so with scales. Sorry I offended your little hero... not.

As far as having something against Cecil.. well let's just say he did n't like the fact that I gave my opinion of using lysol... go read above. I don't care if he uses rocekt fuel to degrease his fish, I knwo what's in lysol and like I said above if you use it on hides you are taking a shortcut that could cost you a few hides. If you and Cecil are so arrogant you can't see that, well the both of you can keep smiling at each other and telling one another how great you both are.

George has it spot on, I have been around some of the best fish guys and never once have heard them toot their own horn. Clark Screibeis is a three time world champion fish carver and would clean clock in the taxidermy division if he had a mind to and I have spent plenty of time with him, I never ONCE heard him, or Tom Sexton, Jeff Brain, Jeff Mourning, Paul B., etc... ever brag about being a "Master Taxidermist" no why? They don't need to, but that is something I guess you and Cecil have not learned as of yet. You going to tell us what your IQ is next? LMAO.

George I am through with these lysol lovers.

DaveT


Dave T. I'm didn't say I was any kind of legend

This response submitted by Cecil 64.184.41.234 on 6/17/06 at 11:02 AM. ( ) 64.184.41.53

My original point was simply my 24 years in taxidermy and certification should account for something.

I'm still am puzzled how you can say the lysol I use (not the brown bottle) has no bacteria killing properties at all when it says so right on the bottle.

I guess we sould just agree to disagree.


Not the Sunday moring questions but very interesting!

This response submitted by Rick Krane on 6/17/06 at 11:48 AM. ( rmkinc1@msn.com ) 70.109.173.233

Ok I'll bite. Here is my take on "solutions" they are meant to assist you past a problem your having or may have at some point. I have used many variations of "solutions) I find a few things work well and as I teach to my participants in the workshops I give that there is no 1 correct thing only things that are beneficial or not in the use of what ever it is your doing. I never want to make clones out of people I want folks to think for them selves and to find many new and creative ways to advance the industry.

Personally I use 2 gals of h2o, 2 oz of Zinc sulfate, a cup of borax, a squirt of dawn, a cap or 2 of chemal 4 and call it a day. I do vary this cocktail up a bit from time to time depending on what I'm working on. It is a variation on an old formula I read from a book Richard Christoforo told me of from 1886 on modern taxidermy. I know one thing and that is some of the methods used many years ago have stood the test of at least the time from when this was written. So maybe it is like fishing? If you believe it works and you don't have any thing to show you it doesn't then it makes you feel good about what you do then do it.

All about this Master thing? I think Cecil was just saying that he has put some time in and done good work for some time now. When does a person be come a master? Well I hope never if it means not being a student any more. I have master the thought that I will never do a perfect fish and master the reality that I will die with fish in freezer I'm sure. Other than that if there is a committee out there that deems us to be a master at this or that Cool! Maybe some day I'll look into it. I don't advertise my services or my taxidermy work as master's work however I did once win a best of show in a master of masters division well at least that what was on the ribbon. I don't think it made me feel any different about my work however. God is the Master of all that we do in nature an in life it is my belief and not to push my beliefs on any one just what I think nothing more or less. Want to see a real master go spend time with the fish you'll be impressed!

OH BTW Cecil don't tell me again you don't have time to participate in the Sunday morning questions I know you do now! We have Masters an beginners alike so all are welcome! LOL

MY Best!

Rick Krane
Anglers Artistry
312 Chesterfield Rd
Hinsdale NH 03451
603-336-7296


George why would anyone want to answer you?

This response submitted by Cecil 64.184.41.234 on 6/17/06 at 2:38 PM. ( ) 64.184.41.53

You just insult them anyway.


Rick Krane

This response submitted by DaveT on 6/17/06 at 3:34 PM. ( ) 24.32.84.11

You don't have to toot your horn, your name and fish precede you.

DaveT


Doug

This response submitted by DaveT on 6/17/06 at 4:57 PM. ( ) 24.32.84.11

I am still waiting to see a pic of your fish... surely you have at least one?

DaveT


Tooting of ones horn?

This response submitted by Rick Krane on 6/17/06 at 7:54 PM. ( rmkinc1@msn.com ) 70.109.173.233

Hey Dave!

Sorry for tooting! I don't know where I tooted but I know tooting can be offensive. LOL!

I try to keep it as hum bal as possible and toot free when I can.

Have a good evening you Lysol and borax users! LOL!

Ok Dave T now you can answer the Sunday morning questions too! LOL! Hope your all well!

My Best!

Rick K


more then one way to toot

This response submitted by DaveT on 6/17/06 at 9:12 PM. ( ) 24.32.84.11

Thanks for reminding us that there are always two ways to look at something. I never thoguht I would get back into one of these brawls especially when i gave someone my opinion on lysol.

By the way, I was saying, you do not need to ever toot your horn as your fish work speaks for itself...

DaveT


opps

This response submitted by DaveT on 6/17/06 at 9:13 PM. ( ) 24.32.84.11

I forgot, won't be available on Sunday mornings although I am sure it is interesting.

DaveT


Probably time to move on..eh?

This response submitted by Doug on 6/18/06 at 8:20 AM. ( ) 198.111.220.109

The issue was the use of lysol in a FISH soak and look where it went. Dave changed the subject to using lysol on hides. George never even mentioned lysol, and conveniently avoided asking Rick Krane WHY he used borax in his fish prep soak. The "master" issue has taken up more space here than anything. Like I said, the ones who criticize it the most are the ones who haven't earned it. And Dave is in the defensive mode ,waiting to see some of my fish so he can "get even" for the opinions I expressed about his. Well Dave, you won't get your wish. Compared to your and Cecil's fish, mine are worthy of much criticism to any educated eyes. I wish I could do a mount as good as either of you. My fish are no reflection on ANY professional I ever learned from, which includes most of the fine fish fellows mentioned on this thread. My fish reflect on ME and my inablity to apply much of what I have learned. BTW...have you (or any of us) ever seen a fish done by George?


Doug give yourself some credit

This response submitted by Cecil on 6/18/06 at 10:18 AM. ( ) 64.184.41.53

You fish are better than most! You have nothing to be ashamed of.

I deserve some blame for getting ths topic off topic. But it gets under my skin when someone just repeats what they hear about lysol (no phenol anymore so it's doesn' work). And of course I mentioned that dreaded word "master."

Contrary to what you may hear I don't consider myself a lengend but I did earn my certification and I won't apologize for that.


Doug kiss my butt bud

This response submitted by DaveT on 6/18/06 at 3:55 PM. ( ) 24.32.84.11

The originater of this post made mention of lysol in deer skins and I simpley stated "Does not kill bacteria and has an extremely high PH. Don't seem to bother fish too much but it can ruin hides. I would and so use Rittle's bactericide in it's place... far superior product"

It is my opinion thta Rittle's is better so get off your high horse. This pot went downhill when Cecil and his cronies blasted us for calling a spade a spade. You go run to Wal Mart and buy some Lysol, I will continue to use Rittle's.

If you come on here and say you have seen my fish and start critiqueing them then why is not fair that i get to see yours and do likewise. I could have blasted cecil's fish on his website as the flaws jump off the page. You said your fish are equal to the wholesale crappie on my site... I just asked you to supply alittle proof besides your mouth.

DaveT


I apologize Dave

This response submitted by Doug on 6/18/06 at 5:06 PM. ( ) 198.77.48.209

I'm not on a horse...high or otherwise. I'm sure on your testimony that Rittel's products are effective for their purpose. I am also sure on Cecil's say-so that lysol works to kill bacteria. Both of you can be right the way I see it.
I can tell by the title of your post that you are very upset Dave. Sorry I ever said anything about the mounts on your website. The fact that my fish are in no way up to the quality of yours or Cecil's is something I readily acknowledge so it's really not necessary for you to get your turn to get even with me.
This isn't even politics or religion, and you can just feel the tension. I sure wish we could all get along...eh?


Gosh Dave

This response submitted by Cecil 64.184.41.234 on 6/18/06 at 10:06 PM. ( ) 64.184.41.53

Church didn't do you any good today eh? Still have a hot temper and it's my way or the highway eh?

This is the FISH category isn't it? If you go back to the original post you will see mammals were only briefly mentioned at the end of the post. The poster was chiefly concerned with fish and that's why he posted it in THE FISH CATEGORY!

Now lysol ruins deer capes? Just because someone says this you believe it. as in the just because Lysol doesn't have phenol it's worthless?

When I did 70 to 90 deerheads a year and did my own tanning, I used Dawn detergent briefly before rinsing well to clean the blood and dirt out of the capes. I can assure you the PH was quite high and probably higher than a few capfuls of Lysol. However once in the pickle at a PH of 2.5 bacteria couldn't get a foothold. Basic chemistry and microbiology -- bacteria have a really hard time at such a low PH.

Why you would want to add Lysol to the pickle is beyond me. It's probably as worthless as adding borax to the DA/H20 solution as George Roof does. That's even more peculiar when he says borax does nothing.


No Problem Doug

This response submitted by DaveT on 6/18/06 at 10:29 PM. ( ) 24.32.84.11

Yes I did get a little upset, but it does get tiring that every time someone on this site states an opinion that differs from one of the beloved liberals, we get slammed. It was kind of funny how you opened up on me when had you just taken a minute to read the posts you would have seen the Cecil was the one who got his panties tied in a wad because I said Lysol is bad for deer hides.

This is how Cecil responded to my original post:
It's right on the damn bottle. You can't miss it. Just because some nimrod says it's no good because it no longer has phenol doesn't mean you have to believe it.

Damn Bottle? Nimrod? As far as your comments about my fish, well let's just say I have had Jeff Lumsden, Tom Sexton, Clark Schreibeis and a few other pretty decent fish guys critique my fish so please excuse me if I don't take you or your Sensei too seriously.

I really could care less if you and Cecil soak your fish in rocket fuel, I KNOW Rittle's bactericide is a better product then Lysol and I don't care if Cecil has 50 sheets of paper telling himself how lovely he is or how long he has been doing fish taxidermy... it just don't impress me nor does it give him the right to jump my case when I offer a different opinion then his. By the way, anyone using lysol in denatured alcohol if peeing in the wind, the alcohol will do more to kill bacteria then 1 capful of the wonder chemical lysol ever will.

DaveT


Actually Cecil

This response submitted by DaveT on 6/18/06 at 10:36 PM. ( ) 24.32.84.11

Church has nothing to do with the fact that I call you out... you need it. You openly attack anyone who thinks differently then you and whine when you get it back. Pulling out the church card really is old Cecil. Aren't you a Christian? Seem I hear you say so? Perhaps you should get that Sequia out of your eye before you attack someone else. If you ever got the first draft of my responses to you you might be right. However, you get the third of fourth edit as if I told you what I really think of you... well that would serve no purpose.

DaveT


Easy way to settle this Lysol issue.

This response submitted by Glen Conley on 6/19/06 at 12:55 AM. ( g.conley@verizon.net ) 70.105.121.132

Proctor & Gamble has a toll free consumer line on every product label they put out. Would someone care to call them, ask for a technician, and then describe the manner and concentrations the product is used in, AND THEN ask about the bacteria killing properties? I've already been there, done that years ago. I would about bet the answer remains unchanged.

How many besides yer Uncle George and me looked at the links Dave posted?

For those that did, here's another link that might be of interest. Short, well written and easily undrstood. This one is for sodium borate, or Borax:
http://chemistry.about.com/library/weekly/aa091002a.htm


Thanks Y.D.(LOL)

This response submitted by Doug on 6/19/06 at 6:37 AM. ( ) 198.111.220.187

Just thought I'd C&P the meat of the article for all to see.
"Although it has numerous industrial uses, in the home borax is used as a natural laundry booster, multipurpose cleaner, FUNGICIDE, PRESERVATIVE, INSECTICIDE, herbicide, DISINFECTANT, dessicant, and ingredient in making 'slime'." Many other sources identify borax as an ANTISEPTIC. Borax boosts a whole lot more than one's morale now doesn't it...eh?


Glen

This response submitted by DaveT on 6/19/06 at 7:31 AM. ( ) 24.32.84.11

I failed to mention, Rittle's bacteriacide is the the product I use but I am sure the other manufactures, such as Glen, have products that work equally as well and at the correct PH.

DaveT


Hey Dave

This response submitted by Cecil 64.184.41.234 on 6/19/06 at 9:00 AM. ( ) 64.184.41.53


zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...


Yes, borax among other things is a dessicant

This response submitted by Cecil 64.184.41.234 on 6/19/06 at 9:03 AM. ( ) 64.184.41.53

which means it hastens drying, which is what I use it for along with the fact that it draws nasty fluids out of the skin. If anyone doesn't believe me check the water about an hour after you soak it.

George says borax is worthless but he uses it in his DA/H20 solution. Wonder why that is?


Gotta love Taxi Net

This response submitted by GB on 6/19/06 at 10:49 AM. ( ) 63.23.180.241

Wow fellas whats all the hype about? Who cares what you use if it does the job you expect. I know taxidermists that use nothing but a mild degreser and have World titles. A master taxidermist in my opinion is a taxidermist that understands and is capable of mounting any species of game that a customer can come up with. As an example if billy bob catches that 12 foot marlin or that 2 inch emerald shiner you the "master taxidermist" can in shop complete this creature to a standard of excellence. It doesn't mean you call a replica guy it means that the "master" does it himself. I wish competitions would go to a rule change stating that in the master division a competitor must make entirely all parts including eyes,heads,body,bases,hell we can even have them make their own paint from dry pigments. That is a Master Taxidermist. A Master Taxidermist asks the questions and experiments to find the answers. Now, Based on my qualifications how many master taxidermists are there?


Gary, this ain't hype, this is history!

This response submitted by Glen Conley on 6/19/06 at 11:53 AM. ( g.conley@verizon.net ) 70.105.121.132

You just have to be like me and have a simple mind so you can read everything in simplest terms. Then assembling that sum total of simplicity makes for complexity.

Let's walk back through the above, weeding as we go. Starts out a guy makes a statement explaining why he poses his question. That is followed up by an answer based on words deliberately planted by the marketing people for the company taking advantage of people tending to pick up on key words that "they" want to see. That's when it took off.

Now we wind up with a thread that has attracted a bunch of the cream of the crop fish taxidermists. That's the beginning of the really cool part. They each are pointing out what works in the way of soaks for them, and has stood the test of time. BINGO! The start of offering up a bunch of information that I have to view as highly relevant.

Granted, this is in the fish category, BUT this is also one of those threads that I hope that some of the people that normally follow just the tanning category would also read.

Simplest terms. All of these soaks share performance properties as far as end results. Basically they are all "purging" or "drawing" the solubile body/skin fluids out from between the supporting structural proteins of the skin. These structures have been known for some time to be enzyme resistant to a high degree. What can screw with these structures is acids.

Acids are going to be produced in decomposition, whether it be from starting with the break down of the glucose in the system, or bacteria producing enzymes that produce acids in turn to accelerate breaking more complex structures down into simpler forms so these structures can be utilized as food. All you fish guys should know of lactic acid build-up in fish muscle. That's D-isomer lactic, produced when the glucose is cleaved in half as a result of energy expenditure. The same glucose can be broken down into D-isomer lactic with DECOMPOSITIONS.

Notice that just about everything used in the soaks is of an alkaline nature. Big neutralization buffering time going on there. I had already pointed out above that a protein can take an acid, neutral, or base (alkaline) form.

Now here's where I think it gets cool. The longevity of these mounts has also been pointed out. For the mount to last over time, the skin has to last over time.

Notice a contrast between fish skin preservation and conventional tanning methods of mammal skins. There isn't any acids used to destruct the fibers of the fish skin. With the acid being absent, there isn't a catalyst to cause destructions as a result of incompatible chemicals. I've been harping for a looong time that the same principles can be applied to mammal skins for taxidermy, the big problem to over come is the density of the fibers, number of layers of the same, and sum total thicknesses of skin.

One more thing, when D-isomer lactic comes into contact with the body fluid electrolytes such as calcium chloride, potassium chloride, sodium, and magnesium chloride, ammonium chloride can be formed...

See, ain't nothin' to this simple thinking thing.


"Simple" HUH?

This response submitted by Doug on 6/19/06 at 12:44 PM. ( ) 198.111.220.90

Cripes sake Glen. Now I know why you call George "uncle"..eh? (grin)


Return to Fish Taxidermy Category Menu