I do not agree with the post JL.entered on the 8-1-o6 that one can not do A skin mount of A striped bass you just have to spend more time cleaning the head than on A large mouth.I have mounted 35 pound stripers and never had any complaints. If he does not believe me he is welcome to check some in my shop that have been on display for ten years. He seems to have the same biased opinion as Shaw Gribsy the bass pro. who allegedly made the statement on A tv. outdoor show that any bass skin mount would not last as he had seen some in A CRACKER BARREL restuarant that looked terribel and all fishermen should go the reproduction route. I have seen some pathetic deer head ,mounts at sportsmans shows but, that does not mean that all of them are awful
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Cleaning out the head well and degreasing will take one a long way toward a good quality mount. History is replete with those that say you can't do it. What they mean to say is THEY can't do it.
I haven't done a lot of them but the big ones I did do didn't seem nearly as greasy as trout and salmon.
...six shooter and live to tell about it. But why put yourself in that position in the first place.
You can use everything on a 35 pound Striper. And if cleaned and degreased properly you probably won't have any problems. But there are no guarantees. Even with proper degreasing and painstaking measures to remove everything you could still have issues years down the road. The fins and fin roots COULD lead to issues. And the brachiostagal rays are notorious grease holders that is next to impossible to get out. This could also lead to issues down the road. At the very least, you should at least cast the head. It's not only safer, but it's actually QUICKER in the long run if you count all your time savings of not having to clean the head out along with the time savings at mount-up time (it's quicker and easier to mount up a fish w/o it's head imo).
Most will tell you that you SHOULDN'T use the real head, but most never said you COULDN'T. But if you do (use the real head), you're taking a gamble. If you do enough big stripers through the years, one will most likely come back to bite you in the butt. It actually may have happened already. But your past customers probably didn't tell you and he/she has probably moved onto another taxidermist, bad-mouthing you all the way. Why defend such an archaic method that puts your reputation on the line when there's something better out there?
Now I will agree with you wholeheartedly that Shaw Grigsby doesn't have a clue what he's talking about. I too have seen some 30+ year old skin mounts that look just as they good as they did 30 years ago...
I can't remember offhand who else said that, but I find comments like that disturbing. I think the key thing in regards to the greese bleeding, is how long the striper was in the freezer. The oil in the fish seems to embed itself in the skin and can't be removed, after a few years.
I also am very interested in using a cast head system, but I haven't tryed it yet.
even though I bit my tounge last time. I have mounted a bunch of large (25-50lb)stripers for a guide group in Kentucky-Tennesee area. I will not use the real head on these fish. The skins get degreased with Epo-Grip bloodout-degreaser, which removes the blood which is normally trapped beneath the scales on these fish(lower sides). This same blood is what bleeds through the paint that most people think is grease. Also, the fins roots are trimmed very close. Reguardless of anyones comments, I do NOT have any bleed through, lifted scales etc. These fish are not nearly as hard to do as some would have you believe, and I average a very sizable profit from them. Just as you cannot skin a crappie as you would any other fish, you must realize that each fish is unique in the way you approach it. That is my opinion and experience, and my stripers also look good (not just my opinion) after years of being mounted.
is said vs. a lot of conventional skin mount fish. The cynics say skin mount fish won't last. I say it has to do with the species, how competent the taxidermist was, and the environment the skin mount is in. I have a largemouth bass in my studio that was not picked up back in 1992, and other than a dust off, and regloss, the fish is as good as new. That's a 16 year old skin mount!
I have nothing against repros or catch and release for that matter, however, I wonder how many fish of a lifetime that are released swim off, but die on the bottom with the angler gloating that he had "saved a resource to live again and contribute to the gene pool." Additionally many times these large fish are quite old and at the end of their life span anyway, and old fish just like old people have a low fecundity (fertility) or none at all.
Raising fish in small ponds has opened up my eyes to how sensitive and fragile fish really are. I've noticed no matter how careful one is, some fish do die within 2 to 3 days after release. That's why I rarely practic catch and release anymore. I won't catch a fish until is coming out for sure. To me catch and release is potentially a "waste of a resource."
JL said that REBUILDING the real head was just too troublesome and that he (and thousands of others I might add) never was able to pull it off where it looked as good as the real head did before cleaning.
Now Cecil, just how many stripers do you get in Indiana?
Marty is absolutely right and he's saying what the rest of us have known for years. Though you CAN use the real head, MOST OF YOU should never attempt it. A 35 pound striper is one big oil sop and just because it goes out of your shop door looking OK doesn't mean it will be that way in 5 to 7 years. (Because you got no complaints is no endorsement. I have people who have mounts I did 30 years ago that I cringe to even look at now and THEY HAVE NO COMPLAINTS. Doesn't mean the mount doesn't look like crap.)
I didn't hear what Shaw said or why he said it, but anyone who's ever done fish knows that a 35 pound stripe and a 15 pound largemouth are nowhere near the same in the problems encountered with oil and seepage of oil.
And Monty, blood is not what leeches through your paint. Blood is protein and once dried,it's as stable as bone. OIL however can ooze into the blood and transport the it to the surface. Blood isn't your problem on big stripers, oil is. And like you, I don't care what you say, in nearly 50 years I've never seen anyone using the real head on a striper pull it off successfully enough that I'd want to have it in my house.
Actually we do have stripers here and some really big ones in a few reservoirs. Wipers are more common though. Our wiper record gets broken at least once a year.
My point is never say never. I would NEVER use a real head on a trout or salmon but Paul B. of Michigan has shown us it can be done if you are willing to go to the extra trouble.
on taxidermy will be the day I start trying to fish like Fish Fishburn, LOL!
Sounds reasonable what you are saying on the blood. Nevertheless, the Epo-Grip removes the grease and blood like nothing else I have tried. I have seen a few of my fish(displays used at boat shows and bait shops) several years old with no problem. Using the repro head is definately a key factor. I did a few in the beginning with the real head and made a mess out of them. I do believe it is quite possible to do a quality job on these fish if the right procedures are used.
YOU CAN'T SKIN MOUNT A STRIPER! What I did, was ask WHY WOULD YOU?
I've been a successful taxidermist for 56 years and I also mounted all skin mounts back then and packing some with sawdust and plaster and then carving bodies out of balsa wood.Today I use foam for bodies as we didn't have foam available to us back then as it wasn't invented yet.We now have epoxy fillers to build up shrunken areas. I was using wood putty back then.We didn't have air brushes so we applied a WASH first then hand painted the details...back then.All of our mounts are better today because of the better supplies we have to mount these fish and the new methods we use. It seems obvious to me that you are convinced that you mount an excellent striper and your customers are happy with your work...isn't that what's suppose to happen? However, taxidermy keeps improving and reproduction fish are part of that improvement by eliminating the problems you continue to want to face. I believe also, that doing a reproduction striper is more than you are ready to handle right now, and thats great for you. However to state that you can mount a skin mounted striper that is as good as a well-done reproduction is only fooling yourself.Good luck...JL
The main thing I remember was scales lifting over time, (which I still don't believe is true) and the head not being able to be rebuilt. Instead of starting a discussion about your reasoning, I personally held back, and took what you had to say as more of an insult. I guess some of us don't like to be told, that we are using archaic methods. But it would be hard for anyone to argue, with what marty, and yourself stated in this post. "Atleast anyone willing to learn a better technique". I'm getting tired of cleaning them heads anyway. This subject has probably already been covered in past, and seems like repetition to you, but it's all new to me.
Also I found your story, about how it was done in good old day's intriguing. "Wow" I can only imagine.
I have done a ton of stripers and have done them both ways. If you use the real head you better get everything out including the tongue and top of head. I personally am wiht George and JL and would highly recommend casting the head... oh wait, I mean purchasing a head. Same/Same with the fins.
DaveT
Thank you for posting that. Do you have any idea how frustrating it is for us old farts to put out time tested information and then be chastised for it. We've spent decades making tons of mistakes along the way. We never had the Taxidermy Net and usually, no other taxidermist would talk to us for fear of giving away some deep dark secret of his. We learned by failure and then when we try to make life easier for you so you don't repeat our mistakes, we get that "nothing is impossible" crap. None of you guys is reinventing the wheel. This is TAXIDERMY and if you'd just learn from the lessons past, you'd save yourself worlds of discomfort. We used arsenic, sulfuric acid, and gasoline. When lacquers were the only paints out there, we used to see many older taxidermists with walk-around oxygen bottles because they laughed at paint booths and respirators. Sure we, like all of you, have our eccentricities, but if we collectively tell you something, why is it so hard to trust us as trying to save you guys a little pain? We can only lead you to water, we can't make you drink.
promote Replicas OVER skin mounts is simply because it's politically correct for them to do so. After all, IF they stated things the other way around (and promoted skin mounts) their careers would be ruined. In fact, I know a very well-known fisherman in this country that wanted to do a skin mount for the biggest musky he ever caught in his life. But, he released it while biting his lip and chose to do a replica instead. He just didn't want to deal with the grief he'd catch from all those musky fanatics...
It seems like opinions are like Butt Holes, everybody has one.
One Taxidermist opinions & skills vary from person to person.
If you mount a fish for a customer & they want a skin mount, the whole fish should be skin, unless it is a fish that absolutley can not be skin mounted, then a replica is suggested.
If you do not know how to clean out the head on a fish, then, you can explain to the customer, you need to use a raplica or cast head.
Though I highly suggest you learn how to properly clean out a fish head & learn how to tan & degrease properly.
If not, why use a fake head & real skin? You might as well use a replica fish, unless you just like to work.
You can always use apoxie sculp to repair shrunken areas & the heavy gloss coatings, tanning etc.on the market today, will prevent any leakage. Just make sure you clean out all the meat & cartilage.
Give it a try, you will be surprised at what you can accomplish if you just give it a try.
Van Dyke makes a Great powdered fish tan, just be careful to put borax in the water also & don't leave it in too long, it will burn the skin.
Personally, it has nothing to do with knowing how to clean out a head, I do it on many warm water fish. The advantage of a cast head on stripers and cold water fish is removing the main source of grease and save time in rebuilding. I guarantee I can properly install a repro head on a large striper(and paint convincingly) in a fraction of the time it would take to clean out and rebuild the real head.
It has nothing to do with the time, it has to do with, are you giving the customer bach his/her fish?
I know I would like the "real" fish when I ask for the "real" fish.
Like I said, it has to be talked about with the customer before you go & chop the head off & replace it with an artificial one.
As long as that is established when writting the customers information, then, by all means - Save time!
Good point, and I always inform them of this. I also show them a repro head and a same size real head to see the shrinkage, grease and how much of the rebuilt head would be epoxy, anyway. Another point which is obvious is the overall better quality of the end product. Like Cecil, I refuse to use the real head on coldwater or stripers. If they insist, I happily give them the number of someone who will do what they wish.