I've mounted lots of Mt. Lions but have never liked any of the open mouth forms. None of the ones I've seen look correct. When a Lion snarls aggressivly, the tip of their nose is much closer to the eyes and they have a lot of wrinkles between the nose and eyes. Has anyone ever seen a good form for this?
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Maybe the eye nose looks closer, but the fact is that the under lying bone will not let that measurement change much. There is a bit of cartiledge under the nose that might shorten the measurement a bit during a full out snarl, but I'm not too sure about that. The skin on a cat is very loose and stretchy. I put the snarl in with clay that I mold in the face before I mount. But the actual eye to nose distance will stay the same.
Long time ago, I mounted the Ford cougar cat that was used in the TV commercials for Ford Motor Co. The owner brought in a picture of that cat in a snarl that was how he wanted it mounted. The eyes were all but closed and the wrinkles went on for ever, mouth very wide open. All this was sculpted with clay, but the E-N measurement didn't change. (Customer was SO pleased, he ended up being a long time customer and I mounted lots of famous animals that had been in the movies and in commercials.
But it's a physiological feature few people ever realize. Bears are the same way. Predator animals all have a soft cartilage in their nose channels so the they can attack and use their canine teeth to grab hold without smothering themselves. Their noses actually turn up and away from their prey allowing their nasal passages to stay open. Next time you're near your dog, take your index finger and push his nose up and rearward and watch his canine teeth be exposed.
I figure that the sculptors just take measurements off of the dead animals (sounds sensible) and then just convert it to open mouth, snarling without changing the measurments significantly.
Change out head on page 227 of catalog 30, with the full mouth cup. Worked great, got the wrinkles and all. Send me an email and I'll email you a picture or two.
You are stating what anybody who has ever skinned a Mtn. Lion or bear already knows. Yes there is a lot of cartiledge in the nose area. We humans also have a nose with no bones and all cartiledge. Push on your own nose (no need to piss off your dog) and it will push up, pulling up the upper lip. You can also push it down, or side to side. Yes, lots of movement there. BUT, the eye to nose measurement changes are almost insignificant! Go even farther, open your mouth wide, snarl, wrinkle your face as much as possible(please don't post pictures). You will notice there is VERY little change to the eye-nose distance.
The nose to eye distance does shorten some.There is no underlying bone.The nose is all cartilage.The nose pulls back and flattens out,this shortens it some.The nose pad itself is pulled back and looses a little length.It's true,a lot of the older forms were sculpted using the original eye to nose length and it was often difficult to get enough wrinkles in the muzzle.The newer McKenzie heads reflect a slightly shortened nose to eye(app.1/4" depending on head size).All these measurements were taken off freshly killed cats with noses pulled back.The noses were also cast in this position.If you measure the actual nose to eye on these forms,it is less than the listed figure.The nose to eye measurement listed is before the nose is pulled back,to avoid confusion when the taxidermist measures his skin.The Buckeye and McKenzie"Cast Lip" bear heads also have shorter nose to eye measurements.The bears have a longer nose cartilage and they lose a little more length than the cats-app.3/8" or more.
I forgot to add that about the McKenzie change-outs. The first time I used one, I ordered one anticipating just what you described and when it came in, I realized that I needed a bigger head than I'd tried to account for. The bigger head fit like a charm as the E-N was almost a half inch shorter than the cat measured in the natural state. You just HAVE to trust the catalog when you go to the mouth cups systems.
And Deermeister, my nose has been broken a total of 12 times. I can push that sucker up between my eyes and my lips don't move a bit. BUT when my eyes stop tearing, you'd better be ducking. LOL
I've mounted maybe 35-40 Mtn. Lions over the years. I always order the closest form to my actual measurements that I can. I would guess that 80% of my mounts have been snarling, if I count the rugs. I have never had any trouble putting in all the snarly wrinkles that I wanted to. I can't think of a situation where I would order a smaller face form so that I could put in wrinkles for a snarl.
But we both know that the noses on the standard open mouths aren't pitched backwards as a real pissed off cougar is. Neither are the eyes almost covered by the cheek skin puffed all up. Cat his is elastic and will do lots of things that whether correct or incorrect is possible. Those new mouth cups are a godsend for lazy people like me.
I should have stated earlier that I've treed over 125 lions in the past 15 years or so and I've been up close to many of them snarling at me. I've got many photos showing that in fact the E/N distance is noticably shorter on a cat that is snarling. Probably in the area of 1/4 to 3/8 of an inch. I'm just after someone to model up a good change out head with a realistic looking snarl for the rest of us to use. I'd of thought one of the companies would have done this by now. Thanks for all the input so far everyone! Keep it coming. Does anyone know of someone that might be able to model up one?
If you haven't tried the McKenzie "Cast Lip" you should take a look at one.I think they're pretty close.