Should there be any concerns as far as health goes regaring air born bacteria with doing maceration on skulls in doors over the winter months?
I have been going it in my basement in 5 gallon buckets full of water covered with 2 garbage bags. I can let them go about 2-1/2 months max. before the smell starts to make itself upstairs. I hate to have customers wait until the warmer months for there skulls when I could put them outside.
The wife is concerned.
thanks-John
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In my life, I've come to expect many things, but some things still surprise me. Would you like your septic tank to dump on the floor of your basement? Then why would you even consider having buckets of rotting flesh in any proximity with your living quarters? Get that sh1t out of your house and keep it out. If that means it has to wait until summer, then in has to wait until summer.
The small is more of an annoyance than anything - thats your only real concern. Take normal safety precautions and you are fine. Its the same bacteria rotting your skulls that rot food in your fridge. Air born exposure isnt really an issue as any of those bacteria entering your system will be dealt with by your immune system. Ingesting it on the other hand? Not good. Getting some in an open cut? again - not good.
Think of it much the same as rotting food and you'll be ok. Make your water changes more frequently and although it takes longer to clean - it means less smell.
How can you say that? Do you HAVE rotting food in your fridge? Do the words staphylococcus, strep, septicemia, typhus,or meningitis mean anything to you? Aside from all that, it just ain't dammit clean to have in your living quarters.
Just going by what my respirologist told me years ago. Whenever it was I was in the hospital with pneumonia (posted about it here a few years ago when it happened - maybe three years ago?). I figured while I had this guy workin on me anyway Id pick his brain about this very subject. The respirologist told me that inhalation of stuff like that in the specific capacity of maceration was an unlikely source of infection. I asked him specifically about those bacterium and he said as long as I wasnt ingesting it, entering the blood stream etc... it wasnt a likely source of infection UNLESS it was in aerosol form. This could mean if someone infected with it were to sneeze... it could be transmitted.
Dont kill the messenger... Im just relaying information. When in doubt - err on the side of caution.
I have a building that is 8 x 8 x 7' tall that I keep beetles and macerating skulls in. Unless there is some building code, (where I live there is no code) this is an inexpensive ($600 to 700) building to put together. I insulated the walls before sealing the inside. Then I used R-Max for the interior paneling, even the ceiling. I am in Mississippi. This building is really easy for me to heat. I use a small electric heater. I suppose a paint respirator would be suggested because it gets pretty tough in there at times. I may have 5 or 6 buckets sitting around with skulls in them. I think the maceration buckets actually help the atmospheric humidity needed for beetles. When the coldest part of winter is past (Feb 15), I move most of the maceration buckets outside on the south side of the house. I cover them with plywood and weight it down with a cinder block to keep dogs from getting into them. If you are in this for the long haul, I feel that some type of permanent building is necessary. I go in once a day to check on beetles,change/add water to maceration/or add/take out skulls (at dusk) and then go straight to the shower!
If you admire filth, roaches and funk, go ahead and keep it. Get that crap out of your house. Rotting flesh in a temporary septic tank in your basement wreaks of bacteria and disease. Raven needs to find a Doctor that has a brain. Your basement is a breeding ground for funk!I swear this has to be simple common sense.
Its more about the route of exposure than the bacterium themselves. All those bacteria mentioned above are found harmlessly around us every day, they are floating around in the air around your head right now and resting between the keys on your keyboard. Maceration bacterial cultures and rotting food in your fridge both get started the same way. Bacteria in your home every second land on something edible with no immune system to fight them off and they start to reproduce and work their magic. The thing that is wikked bad about rotting food in the fridge and not as much in maceration is that the bacterium can spread to food that is NOT rotten... therefore - you stand the chance of ingestion by eating contaminated food. THAT is a likely source of exposure leading to infection. Having an infected person sneeze on you is a likely source of infection. Drinking from the same glass or water fountain as an infected person is a likely source of infection. I cant foresee a situation wherein these factors overlap with safe handling procedures in a macerational setting. The bacteria being present is not in itself the danger, we live with them constantly. They are on your skin as you read this. Its how they enter your system that is more the concern. Exercise caution when working with your cultures; dont eat or drink while working with your cultures; wear disposable gloves; wash your hands with an anti bacterial soap, alcohol, etc.; if you splash any on you, change and wash your clothes, etc etc etc.
Anything is dangerous if yer an idiot. Anything can seem dangerous if you're ignorant. Use caution and Happy Culturing! =)
Those outhouses in parks and campgrounds with the water in the bottom? If just being in the same vacinity as this sort of stuff was a likely route of exposure.. do ya REALLY think all these parks would risk the law suits of endangering their visitors by having those bacterial cultures under yer arse? Now if you were to lick the toilet seat thats a different matter entirely...
Its all about routes of exposure... So yes it IS all about common sense. Common sense dictates you simply use caution around the stuff. Unless you live in an air tight bubble, you aren't getting away from these things - these bacteria are a part of our daily lives and call our skin home. Deal with it. The sky isn't falling.
Your problem is about to make me YACK from here!
If you want to macerate in the winter, then from what I've read in the archives you should find a place outside that will be predator proof, and put an aquarium heater under your bucket or tub to keep it up around 68 or 70 degrees.
To have that crap in the basement of your own home that others share is just downright grody if you ask me.
Even our forefathers had sense enough to keep hydrated lime near the hole to dump into the crap underneath. Just a tiny morsel for thought: when massive earthquakes, hurricanes, typhoons, tidal waves kill off massive populations, what's the FIRST health concern? Cholera spread by decaying corpses. Rotting flesh and feces is in two separate worlds.
Please never invite me to visit your house.
Bacteria is one thing. MOLD and number one to me would be the SMELL. It is the potential for all mentioned in previous posts but SMELL is definate!
Sorry...Outside is a no brainer.
Another common sense safety tip (if I think of more I'll add them here and there - because we all know - common sense isnt always common).
If you have a compromised immune system avoid working with bacterial cultures. A cold, bronchitis, flu etc are all respiratory ailments. It just makes sense if your body is already fighting off virus and bacteria its going to be tired, so don't put yourself in these situations where your health is already compromised. Put off working on your material until you are fully healed and strong again.
As for the smell Justin? Yup it stinks - it stinks like hell... but there are ways to deal with it so that others arent effected by the method. Simple things like separate ventilation for maceration areas and doing water changes only at times when others wont be around for hours can all help. Im not saying maceration is for everyone. I also wont say that the use of dermestids is for everyone. Simmering skulls can stink like hell too and the archives are full of stories about angry wives wanting those stinky heads gone! But dont look down your nose at others beacuse you dont like it. You may find it 'grody' but this is Johns decision for him and his family to work out. Many people would find cleaning ducks in the kitchen sink after a succesful hunt 'grody'. To each their own. Don't be so quick to pass judgement.
To everyone... be sure to separate "ewww it stinks - get it out, get it out!" from legitimate health concerns. This thread was about health concerns - not techniques or best places to practice them. It was about 'Im doing it in the house. What are the risks?' Since I think this has been dealt with enough with points and views on both sides, its now up to John to take from this thread what he will and form his own opinion. Its usually at points like this that threads turn into bashing, so unless someone brings up valid points that warrant further discussion.. Im done with this thread. Do what you think is best for you and yours John. With what you have learned here - consult with a phsyician you trust if it makes you feel better.
Why do I keep coming back here... its the same darned thing over and over... ya try to help and ya get people going to extremes...
We're not talking about earthquakes and tidal waves - christ... Cholera and other infectious diseases in those situations are aggrivated by people wallowing in that filth, unclean drinking water, no source of cleaning materials etc etc etc. We're not talking catastrophy here. Its when proper safety isnt practiced that disease spreads. In catastrophic situations, how can one practice those safety precautions?
I only responded to this because I didnt see it when I posted my 'other' last post. NOW Im done before someone talks about super advanced alien DNA entering the ecosystem... I mean why not - if we're gonna go into radical extremes and introduce the effects of earthquakes into basement maceration right? geeeeeeeeez... Yup - no wonder I rarely come here anymore. No point. People believe what they wanna believe and there aint no changing it...
I'll try not to address any of the factors above as I believe Raven did an adequate job of defending the bacterial aspect of maceration. He was relaying information from the doctor regarding bacteria in an aerosal form, and it was probably accurate. For people who routinely handle freshly killed animals, with their live parasites (roundworms, ticks, lice, etc.) and diseases potentially within the parasites not to mentione on the animals themselves, to be THAT intimidated to natural bacterial action, almost is laughable. Common sense is needed with use of gloves, proper washing of hands, and perhaps face masks. But in reality, to actually wear a face mask properly, it must be custom fit by a professional, with a seal not including a beard (which would eliminate me), and a seperate filter or outside air supply used.
Bacteria are everywhere. In the birdbath, a childrens toy which holds water and a fly drowns in it, the SOIL has anthrax in it many places. It is a scary world out there, and we DEFINITLY NEED OUR IMMUNE SYSTEMS to function properly. If they are compromiced, don't macerate.
Here is where I do have a different opinion than Raven though. It is not the bacteria I worry about, it is the fungi. I am currently macerating a series of specimens after they come out of my bug room, utilizing bacteria to consume the marrow fat so that I do not have to use solvents to remove them, nor drill holes to allow bugs admittance into the long bones of Bears and coyotes and the such. I only change the water once weekly, and though there was not a spot of uneaten meat on the surface of the bone, each week gives me a 5 gallon bucket containing a floating gob on the surface of scum containing fungus growth. Three weeks after starting the bear separated into two buckets, leaves the surface still growing a fungus colony. THAT is in my opinion much different then the liquid bacteria in the solution, which does not aereolize (sic?). I know for example that the spores of fungus in dead parrots containing parrot fever, can be known to infect veterarians who might be giving autopsies.
Everything in life has risks - using formalin instead of alternatives, using GAS to chase water, crossing the street, voting democratic, but people have to use common sense in every aspect of life.
You spent 4 pages defending an unsanitary practice when it would have been so much easier to tell the guy to get his head out of his ass and put the stuff outside? Do you ever wonder why your nose revolts when it smells that? Your body is trying to tell you what your brain is rationalizing.
John, the technology you can use has been available to the average Joe for at least forty years. The only problem with that is, the average Joe has NO IDEA as to what to do with the technology because they don't understand it. When things can come down to something as simple as changing light bulbs, average Joe's brain is going to reel in disbelief, inability to comprehend the concept. Now that's the same Joe that would put his food in a microwave, or subject his unborn child to ultrasound. Anyone here know what kind of destruction that little vibrating quartz crystal could do in early ultrasound devices?
I just used Google, and here is what I came up with:
ultraviolet tubes sterilization about 93,500 returns
ultra violet tubes sterilization 192,000 returns
You can use the same search phrases, use that technology called a telephone and call the companies up that have phone numbers. Tell them what you are doing, and what you want to achieve as far as selective sterilization, in your case, the air.
I'm sure there are a number of colleges, universities, and research facilities that could direct you in how to set up, but you may have a hard time getting through to the person/persons you would need to talk to, so go direct to the source that supplies the same.
If you go this route, I would appreciate it if you would let me know what you came up with. I'm sure there's been a number of advancements since my first exposures to artificial UV sterilization...
You guys go! Tell 'em what aspegillus fungus can do, Steve!
molds and fungus are entirely different from bacteria and actually on that note... Taxidermologist... I should email you with some other things I've been including into my more recent works. Some of it applies directly to what you were mentioning above with your work. Not the sort of stuff Im ready to go public with but that you may find interesting. If you are interested, email me at my normal addy (Raven@trillium-hills.com) so I have your current contact info (Im on a new computer and dont have my old emails or contact list) and I'll send you some info. Id like to see what you think, get your opinions and maybe get you started on something new in your own work!
Its not by default unsanitary. 'Sanitary' is more about the practices you choose to handle the material than the material itself. You can handle nasty material in a very sanitary way.. maybe you've heard of the "SANITATION DEPARTMENT"? The way I handle material indoors if FAR more sanitary than I suspect many do outdoors. Being outside dumping buckets and having it pour all over your shoes is NOT sanitary. Why would I tell him to take it outdoors? It helps alleviate odour, but nothing more. If your argument is that breathing in harmful bacteria is a likely route of exposure and is a HEALTH RISK (again - Stay on topic)... then does it matter if hes inside or outside when doing it? geeeeez...
You gotta be single? LOL! The origional post did ask if there were sanitary concerns BUT he went on to say the SMELL makes it upstairs in a few weeks. It sounds like the wife is smelling it which IS a concern. I would say SMELL is MENTAL HEALTH. Smell doesn't affect me in the least but I don't do my work in the basement.
RULE NUMBER 1 - the wife is always right!
RULE NUMBER 2 - the wife is never wrong!
The key issue with the origional post from what I read was the WIFE was concerned.
Now it's 5 pages of burgeoningn bull sh1t that anybody but a pig would understand justifying living like one. Sounds like the only adult in that house is the wife. I can't believe the pseudointellectualism trying to justify such filth. Do you guys also dip snuff?
from a guy that probably poops in his house and just a few feet from his toothbrush. It's a deal. No dinner invite.
Glen missed an R, it should be aspergillus
George, you are right. Sound's like John is mixing his maseration fluid with his glue. And Raven, remember, a wise man admit's his mistakes, while the fool defend's them.
You're right, but I don't do them at the same time and I have running water that flushes the other stuff out in a pit in the yard. I also have a vent fan and use an air freshener that ionizes the air. Don't YOU? LOL
We get into huge arguments about nothing really. As Raven pointed out, maceration in a shed outside, or in a basement, should pose essentially the exact same risk to the macerator as far as "inhaling aerosolic bacteria". Where the fluid is poured out, either on the ground outside, or into a septic system actually hooked to a septic field or city/town maintained sewer system, has to do with sanitation. Raven simply gave information he had heard from a doctor and got flayed open by George.
Now George, I will pose a question, rhetorical as it may be. If air fresheners or ionizers, or whatever you spray into the air, actually cleans the air out of bacteria, why doesn't it work in hospitals. From everything one reads in the paper, people who enter a hospital for something like a broken bone, end up getting horrible infections of all kinds from an environment we hope is as sterile and "ionized" as you can get?
I do find it hard to conceive of maceration in my basement, but then again I have a very nice incubator at work maintained at about 39-40 degrees celsius. I might as well put at least one bit of useful information here. Room temperature is a bit cool for efficient bacterial action. Justins suggestion of an aquarium heater would work good in an outside shed where John's wife would need to smell the organic chemicals which actually make up the smell.
John, you said you use five gallon pails with garbage bags over them. I can only assume these are antlered of horned animals you are mascerating? Why don't you just use five gallon pails with good tight lids. I do just a little bit of macerating in my basement in the winter with no problem as long as they are not antlered or horned animals. When i do change the water in the pail i just take it outside to do that and snap the lid back on and put them back in the basement. What kind of creatures are you macerating? You just did not make yourself clear on that, maybe theses are deer you are doing, then i understand the problem with the antlers not fitting in the pail. For what its worth, just curious.
The products I use are the same as hospitals use. Even down the the $500 price tag for the one room ionizer.
Though in my opinion he needed it desperately. Taxidermy isn't, contrary to some beliefs, anything near rocket science and certainly not brain surgery. As someone else so succinctly noted, when the wife began to ask questions, the discussion is over. Maybe Gill Grissom can store putrified blood in the fridge where the rest of the CSI guys keep their lunch on TV, but in the world I live in, Grissom is in deep sh1t and his blood goes with him. SANITARY may not have anything to do SCIENTIFICALLY with hazardous waste, but I can only imagine the type person who'd pull a dumass stunt like that and then ask about it on a public form. (Now I've gone and flayed John as well).
People ask all sorts of questions on this forum, some of them entertain us.
that these FAMILY discussions end with a positive note.
The neat thing about this thread is that we got a public admission out of him that his "stuff" does stink.
His quote from above:
"I also have a vent fan and use an air freshener that ionizes the air."
...I hope you grow up to be a real taxidermist one day. LMAO
grow up, get big and strong, and maybe some day mount some real deer, but right now I'm stumped.
a irradiation article
cool stuff/uv and all
as far as all this stuff and puff
my wife can kill with a look
i would not think of having stench like that around
its already bad enough eating these sugar free candies
that im sleeping on the sofa a lot lately
my beagle doesnt even come by
lmao
Starting trouble just when things were calming down...LMAO!
Glad to see everyone happy & laughing on the forum!
Is maceration, those stinking buckets of skull gravey, flesh turned into goop, unhealthy for the basement, and/ or the marriage? Well, perhaps its not, according to some, and how its looked at. But then again, neither is sh*tting on the walls and dragging yer a$$ across the carpet instead of getting a handful of toilet paper, but Im sure as hell not going to do it anyway. I believe that oughtta answer the question rather nicely.