I keep seeing reference to non NTA members being freeloaders and benefiting
from the work of the NTA without shouldering any of the cost. Can anyone point
out any federal or state legislation that the NTA is responsible for creating or
even being the main force behind any lobbying efforts to have passed any such
legislation. Please someone tell me why I should put my money into an organization
that is forcing themselves into my pocket. Forgive me, but I'm thinking every
mob movie I've ever seen, involves paying protection money. Isn't that illegal?
Point is, my money is well spent supporting my state association, DU, Pheasants
Forever, Whitetails Unlimited, Wisc Hunter Educ., local HS, NRA, Visitor's
Bureau, Local Chamber, the BID (Business Improvement District) and any other
groups who want my money. Funny thing is none of those groups DEMAND it, or
threaten to punish other groups I chose to support, if I don't hand them a $50.
To Ken, I'm sorry you missed the point of my earlier reply to the young man. Yes
I tried to put him in his place, but in a civil manner, no name calling or cussing.
To Geo, ol'buddy. It's Wisc and we have 1000 licensed taxidermists in the state,
plus who knows how many unlicensed hacks. We (the WTA) can only attract around
300 into our membership. If the other 700 won't pay our $30 dues to attend at least
2 "no charge" weekend events each year (seminars, competitions, dinners), how are
we going to get them to join for $80 (Our $30 plus the grease for the NTA - $50).
But Geo, I do agree between our 300 members and your 14, we will certainly scare
the wrath of god into those senators from Washington (who spend millions of dollars
just to get elected). If the NTA doesn't keep a dime of our combined $15,700 in dues
we can accomplish all we want in DC.
Seriously though, someone please answer the above questions, so that not only will
I be convinced to join the NTA, but so that I can convince the 700 non-WTA Wisc
Taxidermists to not only join the WTA, but also the NTA.
One last thing, realize before you answer, that the "antis" really don't want to put
us out of business. If you don't get it, it's big business fighting for animal rights.
If they put us out of business, they are out of business and those sick lazy #$@^%!&
don't want to lose that free money train.
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Well Said Bob! I have followed this NTA debate and I just want you to know that you are speaking for a LOT of guys out here.
Like any other organization, if they offer a decent benefit at a reasonable price, they will increase the membership. IF that isn't working, then either the benefit is too small, or the price too high! thats the American way.
I like the IGT also. they can do anything the NTA can but with less cost and WAY less politics and fighting.
Consider that option Taxidermists!
It seems that whenever someone has an opinion that is against the NTA
or the rest of the 'Good Old Boys' they are dumped on but good!
They have yet to give a good legitimate reason to join other than to further their own careers and egos.
Hey, just my opinion.
If you really think the antis do not want to put an end to hunting you ought to try to book a spring bear hunt in Ontario. Or a grizzly or buffalo hunt here in MT. Let's see Colorado lost the right to bait bears.... the list goes on and on. They have all kinds of battles to keep waging and to keep the money rolling in (use of animals for experimental drugs, land development, etc...) long after they put an end to hunting. With all the divisions I see all across the "outdoor" world they probably will. I agree it shouldn't be forced to join the NRA. But I do know that there are a lot of folks who never get envolved. Just for the record, I would much rather see any taxidermist support the NRA or SCI then the NTA. The NRA was the only voice I heard regularily during the past election and they worked their butts off to help us keep our right to own guns. God Bless
Should have read I agree it should not be forced to join the NTA (not the NRA).
RUN them with dogs. The people voted on this I am told, so where does that leave wildlife officials that kow how to care for the volume of the species.
Its saves me $15 per month on my health coverage, thats $180 per year-$50 NTA membership that = plus $130 for me, plus the write-off. Someone spoke of how much the Board members are getting for each member, Check DU's operating costs for example. There are alot of "cush" jobs under there operating costs. These people are not doing this out of the goodness of there hearts. Flying here and there on your money, staying at the finest Hotels, driving the best cars, eating at the best restaurants. Ive seen it first hand. And yes the Antis do the same. Bob, What are you doing this year to get the other 700 taxidermists in your state to become members?, just curious.
I'm a tight wad. With a family to feed and doing taxidermy as a hobby on top of everything else, I'm darned careful where I send what extra cash I have. Like many of the free loaders, I have to see a proven track record that the product offered to me is worth the money I pay to them. The NRA is a burr under the saddle of every liberal lawmaker out there. They spend a lot of money and accomplish a lot in return. Good investment. The "other NTA", the National Trapper's Association, may very well be someone you've never heard about. But Congress has. Congress has repeatedly commended the other NTA for accomplishing more per dollar contributed than any other lobbying organization. The other NTA heads the Ballot Initiative Opposition Coalition, a new group whose mission is to coordiante with WLFA and other conservation groups to oppose the promotion of ballot initiatives in the 24 states that have ballot referendums. This organization has played a key role in stifling the momentum gained by groups like HSUS, PeTA, and so forth, as they've attacked trapping, hunting, and most recently fishing, across the U.S. The "other NTA" is a great investment of your $25 because they defend trapping - the frontline where the battle is being waged. AR (animal rights) whacko liberals seek to outlaw all forms of animal use (read by them as abuse). They brainwash our children with their Jainist agenda (a radical sect of Hinduism) in our public schools under the guise of "environemtal responsibility and awareness" inline with their Hindu beliefs (Ingrid Newkirk was raised a Hindu) while we see law after law forbidding our children to pursue or acknowledge their Judeo-Christian upbringing in that same school. The AR's seek to outlaw our very culture is they can. They start with hunting and trapping because we're vulnerable. Once they've accomplished their goals, they'll move on to biomedical research, animal husbandry, and so forth. Of course, taxidermy will be relegated to a museum only position far before they get that far. But, if you want to sit back and be ractive versus proactive, that's your perogative. Back to the subject at hand, I've not seen the NTA do anything but ask for money so far. What DO they do?
The WTA at it's own expense is sending out a free copy of our qtrly magazine style
newsletter to every licensed taxidermist in the state. We also buy a table at the
largest hunting expo held in Wisc, each year to promote quality taxidermy and to
seek out new members. We hold our annual competition in conjunction with another
large hunting expo in another metro area of our state. We host daily seminars t/o
the event taught by world and national champions.
We host a summer rendevous in the SW corner of our state, free of charge to all
(that's WTA member or NOT, NTA member or Not, IGT member or NOT, Breakthrough
subscriber or NOT - Get the Point) so that our event can benefit our state taxidermists
as well as those from Minn, Iowa, and ILL. Again free seminars, all 3 days, from
State, World, and National Champs.
About your insurance, I pay $91 a month for health ins on my family of 4. Can the NTA
save me 15% off that rate. If so, that would be reason enough for me to join.
To all readers of this post, about the "antis", I hate them as bad as you do, don't get
that wrong, I was only asking that this original question not be flooded with responses
that the NTA will fight off the "antis" for me. There are much more powerful groups
already using my money to wage that war.
Hi bob in response to your question about any percentage off your 90 dollar per month probably not. My family sole income depends on taxidermy, full time as I am sure with that rate you have another profession and taxidermy is part time. Full-timers are in a different category. This is our life..period. All the time, not just after we get done with a 8 hour day at our real job. Bye for now... Erin
This is also my more than full-time job. However that is not the point. The NTA
wants all taxidermists, full-timers (like you), part-timers, and those during
this as a hobby. Again the post is in reply to comments of others, that non-NTA
members are reaping the benefits of the NTA, without shouldering any of the costs.
This is not about you, nor I, it's about what benefits are non-NTA members receiving
as a result of NTA members who pay yearly dues?
What are you doing for our profession? If you do not like the NTA or the rules, then turning your back will not make it better.... get involved, attend meetings and vote. I DO NOT agree with this crap of forcing folks to join... but I just sent off my membership dues last week because it is the right thing to do (I am a part timer just getting started again), When I sent it in I had a suggestion card and I took the time to write down my thoughts and I sent it in as well. When Ken posted the Taxidermy kits on the home page here, I send him a personal e-mail stating my opinion and thoughts. He responded (quite elequently I might add), and stated his opinion. The ad stayed, but at least he was made aware of one individual's concerns, thoughts. I learned along time ago when I joined the military, that if you want to see change you have to speak your mind and get involved. Don't always work, but sometimes it does. I bet there were a lot of folks in Florida this year who went around saying, "Like my vote really matters" well guess what, it would have. The answer to things we do not like is not to "turn our head" or reject to join because we do not like the current policy. The answer is to get involved, speak up, and VOTE. We as sportsmen and women are one of the worse groups to ralley and defend our rights. The antis are just the opposite so we better come up with some ways to unite rather then seperate. Taxidermy is starting to resembel boxing, we have a national, IGT, Interantional/world, N. American champion. How many different divisions do we need? There is strength in numbers... that my friends is called politics. Millions of dollars are spent by our gov officials to see how what they say or do will hold up to "popular" opinion. You have to lobby and the more numbers you throw up, the better chance you have. I am not saying the NTA is the most effective organization out there, what I am saying is that boycotting it will not fix it either.
Could not of said it better!
If everyone would look through the archives, they'd see your same stance from about a year ago. as I stated back then, all the taxidermy organizations are clubs, you decide if it's worth the cost, for the education and enjoyment you get out of it. And as bob refered to, there's no taxidermy organisation that's powerful enough to make a hill of beans difference in washington, sorry if any ego's are hurt, but that's the way it is. By the way, as a long time supporter of the "other NTA" I think it should also be know that it's actually the "original" NTA and yes we are well known and respected in higher levels of government.
...in Wisconsin, do you use NTA scoresheets? If you do, your association is benefitting directly from the NTA. I am on the board of directors of the NMTA (New Mexico), and we are a 100% NTA affiliate. By being 1oo%, our members (and potential members) benefit with insurance (life AND studio), the Certification program, the AE program, use of NTA scoresheets, etc. These benefits, as well as others, will help you recruit new members into your association, which in turn will benefit your profession.
I agree that the NTA is a small organization, comparetively speaking. It will have no more influence or lobbying strength if its numbers remain the same. I, for one, have been a member of the NTA for 7 or 8 years, and my work has greatly improved from the NTA sanctioned shows. I am certified in three of the four categories under the NTA Certification Program, and this helps me promote my studio and my work (I guess I don't have to tell you that all of these costs are deductible, meaning your CUSTOMERS should paying for them when they pay for their mount). I will continue to be a member of the NTA, and I would encourage all of you to explore your options thouroughly...the NTA is a professionally run operation with the potential for good lobbying strength if the membership numbers would rise. Just think what YOUR association could accomplish if you could sign up all of your Wisconsin licensed taxidermists.
PS-You have a GREAT museum in Milwaukee (Milwaukee Museum of Natural History)!
You discount all the "answers" you were given, but I have to ask where the burr under your saddle came from. As I stated, no where, no time, no one ever stated or implied you HAD to be an NTA member. NEVER. If Wisconsin (I apologize for saying Washington) doesn't need the NTA, why is it a problem that your state be 100% affiliated to gain NTA certification? My question is: Are you saying that the NTA is creating a problem for you if it requires 100%? You seem to have stated over and over you don't need them. If that's the case, I don't understand why you don't just write them off instead of lambast them.
And so those folks who like to play peacemakers don't misconstrue this, Bob is a fine gentlemen who's just as concerned as the next guy with the future of an industry he loves. In the real world, two or 2 thousand people can disagree without endangering the respect for each other. This forum always has a spat or two (And I am usually guilty of entering them), but so what if the "anti's" see it. Do you think they came here to have their minds and attitudes changed? Our exchanges are to help US be better and to hell with those who only seek to tear outdoor recreation apart. If I were to need help tomorrow and email Bob, I just feel he'd be there regardless. So would Bill Yox and John C and the rest of us. Sometimes we just agree to disagree.
Do you enjoy the state show, but want to compete at the next level? Try the NTA or the IGT. Do you enjoy meeting with your peers, and the state show just isnt enough for you? Try a nieghboring state, the NTA or IGT. Those are reasons to join. You feel great going to what really is an important event. But when that organization tells you that to be a state affiliate, the state has to pay dues, plus the states president has to pay his dues, thats grating. Then when they propose the 100% affiliation, and George, its not asking, thats when you get debates like this one. I have judged states that use many variations of the scoresheet. Ive seen many changes to the NTA sheet as well. You can show me all the Yellow Freight discounts, life insurance policies, etc, you want. When you show me how to attract folks to pay for both organizations when we cant get them at the state level as it is, then I would have to consider this. I still have not heard what the NTA plans to do when they see the obvious, that not all of the states, especially the larger ones, are going to be able to affiliate 100%. To all of you who feel Im wrong, answer this. How will the NTA handle this scenario. A large state tries, but fails to get 100% affiliation. So the NTA says they cant use NTA judges, scoresheets, or whatever they plan to do. How will they still serve the NTA members (like LIFE members, in case you have forgotten those...) who still want NTA points for certification, etc, without penalizing them for merely living in a state that could not cover the 100%? It sounds like it will have to be an "all or nothing" call. 100% or no membership in that state. Guys, Im not trying to slam the NTA and please, dont slam the NTA, just ask what will be done over and above. Like I say, the NRA and SCI will always have alot more strength in its numbers, maybe the NTA should just stay well within thier means, and be the respected group they always were.
Another great reason to go to the NTA shows is so you can have your work analyzed and critiqued by "the best". Can you think of any better way to get your work moving in the right direction then to have someone like Bill Yox, Joe Meder, etc.... look it over and give you some pointers. Not to mention all the other folks you meet and talk "shop" with. Fact is that I get a lot of good advice from my fellow competitors. This year at my state show, Richard Grench (sp?) was there. After the judging and critiqueing, I approached him and asked if he would mind taking a look at my rainbow and tell me what he thought. He spent over 30 minutes helping me out. HE WAS NOT A JUDGE and noone paid him to do it, he was there competing. He is a NTA officer so I think all this talk about them "boosting" their egos/careers is bogus. I do believe Mr. Yox is right on the mark, this should not be forced on states/folks. You always catch more flies with honey then you do with........
As I said in another post, I don't have anything against the NTA or any other social
organization that brings together people with similiar interests.
I personally don't know if I need the NTA, they however at least want my dues (now,
surely not me - LOL). So if they want me (or even just my cash), as well as all
the other non-NTA members, why not seek us out. Don't we as business owners
advertise ourselves (many different ways) all the time, seeking new customers?
We don't rely on anyone else giving us, their customers, just because we want them.
The purpose of this post was to find out how I and other non-NTA members are
freeloading as others in these forumns have suggested. Without a doubt there is
benefits to people belonging to any voluntary organization. However the benefits
that attracted that member, are often the deciding reason someone joins a group.
Accusations are that I (all non-NTA members alike) are freeloading the benefits
that dues paying NTA members pay for. My question then is simple, what NTA
benefit am I taking away from you, using without cost, or profiting by, that you
or the NTA paid for.
I understand fully the debt I owe John C and any other person who served this
great country. I understand the debt I owe the DNR for safety teaching my child
to hunt and handle firearms (that caused me to become an instructor myself 3 yrs
ago). I understand the debt I owe the WTA, for giving me the chance to sit in on
their seminars without cost (I volunteer to help them in whatever ways I can).
I understand the debt I owe the mother of my 2 children (that's why we are still
married after 18 yrs). Point is I know who I owe in life and why and I pay those
debts whenever and however I can.
So I get bothered when someone tells me that I am freeloading and yet doesn't tell
me why. I don't get pirated copies of the NTA magazine, I don't walk into their
annual show without paying. I don't compete under their scoresheets. On and On.
I am concerned that an large State organization could be harmed by not meeting
the 100% mandate. Some of you suggest, that if Wisc doesn't need the NTA, then
we should tell the NTA to take a hike. Guess what, I'm sure many of my fellow
WTA members, may need the beneifits they receive from the NTA. And guess what
I have NO RIGHT to tell them what they can't belong, if THEY so CHOOSE
Why couldn't the NTA have come up with all of these benefits for the State Associations, as incentives for a "goal" to be 100%? They should have let the state associations push national memberships as a benefit to themselves, not for an ultimatum. As long as people believe that joining something is for a greater good, most of us will. But if people feel otherwiseÖ most of us won't. It's no more complicated than that.
Personally I feel that the NTA has placed itself into the corner. They should never have given the illusion that they were any kind of an effective lobbying organization. Just because we (taxidermists) are by nature, pro gun, & hunting doesn't mean we want necessarily to be a powerful national lobby, even if we could. Secondly in my humble opinion, the NTA would be much more effective if it had only one simple goal: To serve and encourage the taxidermy industry by helping to create and educate more new taxidermists!
Money is power, and we don't have either as an association. Let us as individuals support other powerful national groups and lobbies to fight to this end, and let the NTA do what it's capable of doing and what it really needs to do. That is supporting and encouraging the industry.
I am neither a seller of the NTA or against it , it should be a choice but I will say this, I think its really showing your ass to call someone a free loader for not joining.
I will put how much time I have spent, miles I have driven, articles I have written, phone calls I have made, and officials I have talked to against any NTA member or other Idiot calling someone a free loader for not joining.
I don't need anyone to fight my fight I spend a hell of a lot of time doing far more than my fair share.
Now that being said, I am a NRA member, NTA member and belong to quite a few more but to keep lashing out at each other for not joining this or that group is only helping the AR's get what they want.
I don't care who joins what, I do care that we have a lot of people sitting on their asses while our freedoms are being lost.
I can understand fully being a father of 2 and a husband that money can get tight so I condemn nobody for not joining a group.
But it only costs a few minutes of time to make a phone call, write a letter, speak at a school, or if nothing else educate yourself on the issues and then educate those around you.
Fighting will do nothing more than help the enemy.
Charles, I don't think there has been any name calling here. The guy who started the post is the one who used the term "freeloader". Just some good ole' fashion debate. Let me be the first to commend you on all your efforts. Time after time I have seen you post here opening our eyes to what's going on around us. Thank You and please continue your efforts dispite our silliness. If your ever up near Great Falls, MT and need a spot to stop, come on by. I'll have some good old "elk camp" coffee on and would love to meet ya. God Bless
During the late seventies and early eighties, the NTA was involved in
a legal battle with the USFWS. It is estimated that the NTA spent in excess of
$100,000 over the course of several years. The result was changes to the migratory
bird act which benefited both taxidermists and sportsman. The exact numbers and details of the law
suite are available in the NTA board minutes. I'm sure that greg or cindy
may be able to provide more details. The NTA has also contributed to a number of educational programs in PA and LA.
The NTA has a long positive history in this industry. All you need to
do is read the board minutes. I believe they are printed in the annual
report and outlook.
The problem with replying to all these similiar debate posts, is sometimes its
tough to remember what was earlier said and by who. After reading your above
message I went back and read the other NTA recent posts to see why I felt I was
called a freeloader. I found it under the Taxidermist not supporting their own...
On Jan 6 you, Dave Toms wrote;
It is not fair for a small few to "carry the Load" while others enjoy all the
benefits at no cost.
You also went on to discuss shouldering the burden, sort of stuff. So even though
you didn't actually use the term freeloader in that post, you my friend are
responsible for me using it here in my question.
Thanks Perry, you may have been the first person to offer a factual reply to
the question. Sadly though, as a non-NTA member I don't believe I have access
to those past minutes. Unless the NTA website has changed since I last visited
when we disccussed this same issue last time.
Don't feel too bad. While you may or may not have access to the minutes,
I'm sure if you called NTA HQ, or emailed them with specific questions, I
know they will respond. If you feel you didn't get a direct answer, try
rephrasing the question. I think even yoxy will agree that Greg and Cindy
will try their best to reply to ANYONE, NTA member or not....
Bob, once again someone on this site takes it upon themself to imply something that I did not say. If I wanted to call anyone a freeloader I would have done so. Go back and read the whole post. I have also said many times that I do not think this should be forced on anyone and that this is the wrong approach. So please do me the favor and be responsible for what you post and not try to ascertain my intentions.
I'm glad we agree on being resposible for our own words. I apologize for
misunderstanding you when you wrote;
"If someone is charging money for their mounts, then they should be supporting
the NTA because our "rights" are under attack. It is not fair for a small few to
"carry the Load" while others enjoy all the benefits at no cost. I am not against
anyone practing taxidermy, supplementing their income from it or anything else.
But daggom-it folks we need everyone to "shoulder the burden" before..."
I am sorry that I felt you implied that non-NTA members were not carrying our
share of the load or helping to shoulder the burden, or even enjoying all the
benefits without any or the costs. I apparently missed the true meaning of your
above quoted reponse that you have placed in an earlier post.
Dave, my email is current, correct, listed above, and available to you sir, if
you wish to contact me regarding this point, please do so. We need not waste all
this space, discussing why I felt compelled to ask this original question.
Thank you and I look forward to any direct emails.
The personal e-mail is on the way. You know if you would have read the post my intentions are that we all work together to fight the ARs. In this very post, which you started, I mentioned that :
". I agree it shouldn't be forced to join the NRA. But I do know that there are a lot of folks who never get envolved. Just for the record, I would much rather see any taxidermist support the NRA or SCI then the NTA. The NRA was the only voice I heard regularily during the past election and they worked their butts off to help us keep our right to own guns."
The fact is that I do not call folks names. Saying that we need folks to shoulder the burden is a lot different then calling someone a freeloader. All I ask is that you not put words in my mouth. I am a big boy and can say it for myself. Do I think taxidermist should join the NTA.... absolutely, despite what has been said here lately the NTA has done a lot for this industry. Do I believe in some of the current policies... no I don't. I don't like what Clinton did to the military either so I vote and will continue to do so. I did not start these "debates" and I have not made any personal attacks/comments so let's keep it that way. I do feel it will be a shame if a lot of folks quit the NTA because of this policy. I feel all will lose even the states and individual members. I know for me personally, that I get far more then what I should for my 50 bucks, besides it's a tax write off so how much are you really out? I get pretty passionate about losing my rights/hunting seasons. Out west, we have lost a lot of seasons and our always fighting the ARs. In all my posts this is the theme behind my comments, I do not care about score cards, judges, etc. nearly as much as I do for every sportsman or woman to get envolved.
I thought that I would answer your question or at least show you some of the efforts the NTA has been involved with on the law making issue. These are the ones that are of record in the history of the NTA donations that are sums spent/donated in fighting for rights of hunters trappers and sportsman in the last few years.
$5200.00 ----Arizonians for wildlife proposition /legislation
$2500.00-----Oregonians for wildlife proposition/legislation
$2000.00 ----Californians for wildlife proposition/legislation
$1000.00 ----Washingtonians for wildlife proposition/legislation
$1000.00 ----Oregon Bear/Cougar repeal of measure 18
$2000.00 ----Arizonians for wildlife proposition 102 / November 2000
These are a few of the financial expenditures that are listed in the NTAís Treasureís report and of course are all items that were voted on by the board as viable investments. The sad news is that most of these donations were not enough to win. However this will not stop us from trying to do the right thing and fight for us all. I think your lack of knowledge of the NTA's history or intent may be doing more damage than you think when you post like this on the forum. All of this information and more is available to anyone who is reading the Outlook magazine (members of the NTA) or State Association newsletters that bother to tell their members. Some times there are postings on the Forum also. Yes Bob the NTA is doing something for us in the department of lawmaking and State level concerns I wish that the NTA were appreciated for what it HAS DONE and will continue to DO.
Will you please Join now and be informed and involved in the effort to be recognized as Professionals that care about their future? This Bashing on the Forum will never help us win each other over or win propositions at the ballots.
Best Regards, Mike
drop your imposed mandate of Jan 1, 2002 as the date that all must be 100%.
You and your group have no legal authority to force yourself into my or anyone
else's pocket. But the sad thing, that you don't see, is that my oppostion (as well
as so many others) is because we want to insure the survival of our state groups
as well as any or all national or international groups.
If you go ahead with this, you will certainly harm the people, you claim to want
to help (taxidermists across this country). States will lose members and some
of the bigger ones in the face of losing members, will certainly decide that their
own survival is paramount and will elect to drop their NTA affliation, thus helping
to lessen the national importance, your group so desires.
How important of a voice will the NTA have in Washington, if the states with the
largest memberships don't support you?
So again Mike, I'll gladly join your NTA, as soon as you and the NTA drop this
100% mandate, before if harms us all.
... for your response?
... for your response?