Liberal Opinion.....

Submitted by marty on 10/11/01. ( )

I'm Swamped today but I was stupid enough to....

...take a peek at the board and of course seeing this post I HAD to put my two cents in. And the big problem is I could literally make a 4+ page post on this subject and the adjacent subjects that this topic touches upon. But, I'll do my best to keep it to the Readers Digest version...

BTW, my political beliefs have NOTHING to do with the current scenario with the Taliban, etc. I, as should every American, am against these terrorists 100%. And, I also think NOW is the time to come together regardless of political beliefs in the fight against these gutless individuals.

First of all, I must say that although NOT politically correct on THIS forum (I'm WAY outnumbered) I must inform you all that I did attend a Liberal Arts college and although I am not a full-blown liberal I am definitely leaning that way. So I do expect to get shot-down here - but that's okay...

First of all, I'd have to say that Cecil (and many other's) incorrectly mix the terms "liberal" with "bureaucracy", "big-government" and "wasted revenue". I beg to differ... big government, the World Bank, IMF, WTO and Big Corporations have absolutely nothing to do with being a liberal or conservative. [Although (indirectly) by voting in an abundance of conservatives through the years (IMHO), combined with greed has contributed to the problem] These elitist organizations, including the folks in OUR government are ALL profit driven. Period. They could give a rats behind about the environment and many other issues as long as their pockets get fuller. The United States "helps" many deprived countries by pumping in cash to help their economy (or so they say). The fact of the matter is the United States charges astronomical "loan shark" (ie: economic reform) interests rates on these loans to these countries so that they NEVER get out of debt and in fact become MORE poverty stricken. The United States simply wants to control these countries along with the "big picture". Between 1960 and the 1990's, the gap in per capita income tripled between residents of developing countries and residents of industrial countries. At the end of the 20th century, there were 475 billionaires in the world. Their wealth was greater than the total income of the poorest half of humanity, who number approximately 3 billion. And, WE can all say that WE have contributed to the problem...

Our government/society in general has taken a very apathetic view towards the environment and many other big issues. I don't believe that it has been a conscious effort though. I think it stems from the "me" society. "Let's get richer NOW and let the folks down the road worry about the environment" seems to be the attitude. It also stems from not wanting to lose votes and/or spend a lot of money. That's never been politically correct. They allow big corporations to pollute our environment because all they're worried about is power and money. Again, it's all about money and power. Has been for decades/centuries...

Now, someone spoke about the yuppies having sport utes and everything and that's all fine and dandy. That's the "American Way". Or should I say that's the intent of the meaning our forefathers envisioned of the "American Way". Now, that phrase has a much diminished meaning. Everybody should have a chance to be free and also have a chance of being successful in order to afford that sport ute. Unfortunately, because of our current and past government, BILLIONS of people are NEVER getting that chance. In fact, if they're lucky, they'll land a job making shoes for 30 cents an hour to help make ends meet. While the company that sells them is making a hundred bucks per/pair in profit! And, of course our country supports it...

Now, in general I'm AGAINST big government and I'm against more controls. But I also see that there is a drastic need for change (hence the definition of Liberal). I see lakes I fished as a kid in northern Minnesota now posting warnings on the consumption of certain fish. I see the state of Iowa being responsible for ~ 1/4th of the detrimental pesticides running off into the Mighty Miss. I voted for George Bush, but I voted for him because of his issues on Gun Control (pretty selfish huh?). Or should I say Gore's issues on Gun control. I considered Bush the lesser of two evils. Bush's stance/past history on environmental issues is atrocious. His track history of education was also in the toilet. Two issues that he really brought home in his campaign -- ha! Granted, I think he's doing a good job given the current scenario. But, if you think about it, just about anybody would perform as well if forced into that position. He, Like Mr. Clinton are great speakers and carry themselves well in front of people. That is why they became presidents. BTW, I did NOT vote for Clinton. He was/is an evil, evil person...

So, I'd have to say that there is a definite need for change. We've been screwing up OUR world for decades. Everybody should have the opportunity to buy that Sport Ute or open their Taxidermy shop. They shouldn't have to worry about where their next meal is coming from. IMHO, the liberals are the ONLY ones trying to make a difference. Conservatists in this country sit on their fat conservative, apathetic behinds and whine about gun control. Simply stated, there are much bigger issues at stake here. Who gives a hoot about gun control if there's no place on this planet to thrive to be able to even worry about gun control? Open your eyes America. Look at the statistics/facts. In 1995 the IMF "helped" Mexico with its' Peso bailout. Since then, the number of Mexicans in poverty has increased by 50%. And the minimum wage has dropped by 20%. This has happened and is happening all over our world because of US!

Personally, I think these bigger issues will eventually take precedence over someones political stance. It's simply much more important. There will be no liberals and conservatists, only "environmentalists". Besides, I don't believe that these titles are black and white. There are MANY people like me that are somewhere in the middle with all the issues. But, I think we can all agree that the environment and OUR world (not the United States governments' world) is the most important issue of all.

What can you do? I feel the best actions are to get involved with your local politicians. Listen to what they're stance is on environmental issues. Then, VOTE! I feel that we are almost at the same scenario as we were during Vietnam. (But, I must admit that I believe much of the protesting stemmed around trying to avoid being drafted/sent to Vietnam.) We really need a leader like Martin Luther King to help organize and get the word out about these issues. The problem is we don't have anybody like MLK -- he was truly a gifted individual. So, by supporting the right politicians maybe eventually will have an impact on achieving some of the things I've talked about. (And, maybe states like Massachusetts/New York should be pushing for politicians with a more conservative approach. Again, we're looking for a happy midpoint...)

BTW, I am NOT, nor will I ever be a supporter of the NRA. Unless they make some drastic changes. They are definitely too far on the extreme for my taste. I do not believe lumping in everbodys' right to own a Saturday Night Special, buying AK47's thru mail order mags (minus a spring that can be purchased at Ace hardware) should be lumped in with hunters' ability to use shotguns for sporting purposes. Charlton Heston and his hard core stances on the issues is perceived by the bulk of America as very radical and much of his credibility is tossed out the window because of all the issues being black and white to him (and the NRA). I believe that people should have the right to bare arms and defend themselves but some of these weapons the NRA fights for is simply wrong in my mind...

Now, many of you will probably say "if you don't like things why don't you move to another country"? Well, that simply is a defeatist attitude. I don't believe crawling under a rock and pretending that things like this aren't going on is the answer. Change is good/necessary to evolve as humans and as a country/world. I believe that posts like this and the responses/differences of opinion are good for America. Issues are placed on the table and through the varying opinions one can draw their own conclusions. I also believe that liberals are good for our society. As are conservatives -- to keep the liberals in check and visa versa. Liberals in general do tend to have more of an open mind when discussing issues and they represent the other end of the extreme. Many people when mentioning "liberals" sound as if they're the enemy (and visa versa) Liberals are really the only ones out there putting the effort in to try and make changes in our society along with global changes. I believe this country/world is in dire need for some fairly drastic change - from an environmental standpoint AND a humanitarian standpoint. We really don't have time to sit on the fence and be apathetic for another 30+ years. And, regardless if you believe in everything/anything liberals are trying to achieve or not. You have to respect the fact that these folks are at least trying to make a difference...

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No name calling

This response submitted by Bill Yox on 10/11/01. ( )

Marty, Im either very dissappointed in your comments, or very confused, Im not sure. At times you sound very uninformed, and at others, sounding like you are mixing up liberal with conservative. The liberal bent that I know and dislike sounds different then the picture you painted. You ARE entitled to your thoughts, though...

Marty, I to beleive

This response submitted by Randal R. Waites on 10/11/01. ( )

Marty, I to beleive, but I beleive a person has a right to own, possess, control anything that is legal. Now, I also beleive, that when a person breaks the law with any such object, that they should be punished.
There that is pretty simple, we don't need to say, yea to the musket, and ney to the AK47. If they they break the law with either, deal with it.
By the way, this kind of thinking is not just for gun control, right is right and wrong is wrong, and is is is.

What a load of crap!

This response submitted by Brian on 10/11/01. ( )

Hey Marty
Save your liberal pabulum spew for another forum. This one is for TAXIDERMY. Stop trying to sound like an intellect, and get back to your fleshing beam!


This response submitted by marty on 10/11/01. ( )

Well, at least two people read my post! Bill, now I'm confused. I'm guessing you mean't to say "informed" vs "uninformed"? Maybe not? (lol) I'd be happy to clarify some issues if you wouldn't mind elaborating on some of the issues that sound contradictory. Keep in mind, that was the Readers Digest version...

Randal, I agree wholeheartedly with holding people accountable. But what practical purpose does an AK47 have? In the wrong hands they've proven to be quite effective against our own law officers. Sorry, I don't agree. AK47's are either utilized for no good or they're used for kicks for guys that are overcompensating for something they are lacking...

Many contradictions......and questions?

This response submitted by Lisa on 10/11/01. ( )

Marty,The way I view your writings are of an intelligent individual.

I am going to cut to the chase! Sounds to me as if you have little confidence in Bush. Namely, you compared him to Clinton. Or that is MY confidence in Clinton and his patsies. There is no comparision between the two, which I will not get into at this time.

I would be one of those Conservatists that you speak of....however, in no way do I sit on my behind and whine in your words about gun control or the enviroment for that matter. Each and every person has a right to express themselves. I prefer to be proactive...politicians can talk the talk...but can they walk the walk? How many people sit back and think the other guy will do it. Besides many are afraid to take the blame when circumstances may not go as planned. How many people (leaving political preference out) get involved with local issues? That really get out and serve the concerns that they may have. I do, committees, meetings, volunteer work and you? Voting is very critical, so is involvement. Not in a radical way, which in my views are how quite a few liberals behave or hide. Every one should have an open and fair mind, but as human nature shows it can be clouded so very easy....right Marty? Was that the ONLY reason you voted for Bush? Or did morals have something to do with it?

A Conservative with an open and fair mind. If the truth is told to me!


This response submitted by marty on 10/11/01. ( )

My comparisons of Bush and Clinton are merely based off of their abiltities to speak in front of people and carry themselves. That's where things end. I'll be honest with you, Bush has surprised me in the way he has grown/evolved into our president. And, I felt Gore was a bit cocky in his campaign and I just couldn't picture him as a leader of our country. I agreed with some of Gore's philosophies and some of Bushs' philosophies. I literally changed my mind a dozen times before election day. It came down to how he carried himself. Pretty shallow reasons I must say. But, I just had a feeling...

No, I don't do a lot of community involvement other than sports activities with my sons and a few things with my wife's local church. I commend people like you who take the time to try and make a difference.

"Politicians walking the walk"? C'mon, we all know that's a contradiction of terms - lol!

Lisa, some of the things you mention are paralleling what I'm saying. "How many people sit back and think the other guy will do it" (you state - as did I). The apathetic attitude our government has taken (or not taken) for some of the serious issues I mentioned is exactly WHY we need to do something radical. Radical in the sense of drastic change - not violence (as I suspect you were hinting at). Much of what you see on t.v. is the warped view our media wants you to see. Most of the demonstrations you see on t.v. are non-violent in nature. The scene you typically see is the police decked out in combat suits pepper spraying or clubbing non-violent protestors...

Brian, I had to look up "pabulum". You stumped me on that one (maybe I should shut my stupid mouth!) And Lisa, I think we are closer in our philosophies than you think. There IS a gray area between liberals and conservatists. It's NOT all black and white...

Honest Marty

This response submitted by Bill Yox on 10/11/01. ( )

Like I said, you should be able to have your opinions, whether they may or may not agree with us. Im just not into dissecting your post line by line to state my side. By the way, some guys shoot assault weapons because they may be lacking as you said, but theres still others that love to rip thru some ammo in a harmless way down at the sand pit. Im sure there will be those who will rip you in here, but heck, YOU posted it! Hahaha, see ya.

Good God

This response submitted by Dave Toms on 10/11/01. ( )

Marty, you done went over the edge. I can not believe what i just read.



This response submitted by Lisa on 10/11/01. ( )

Don't even try to sweet talk your way into good hunting spots that we have here in Iowa! LMAO Any time I am asked or give myself to a project or an idea that can benefit society and conservation, I do it free will. No honor or recognition need apply,satisfaction and fullfillment in oneself is the ultimate reward. However, leaves a very LOW threshold on the whiners and belleyachers that can't "find" the time. The bitch'en is never ending...a solution, we will never find the "perfect" world, doesn't exist. One step though, could sure make a difference...being accountable for ones actions, no matter who they are. Clinton's, Kennedy's and the most Reverend Jackson...rules need not apply. That's the radical I refer to Marty, violence? How one perceives it. Or perhaps a quiet violence, reprehensible. Gore was and is nothing more that a puppet.

We have leaders now....and followers. Based on trust, integrity and pride, isn't that what we all have in common? Or should.

I agree with you Marty, there are many gray areas. I do feel though, they are becoming more defined...a sharper picture actually!

P.S. If you really do decide to come hunting in Iowa, let us know. Seriously, we can show you some good hunting areas...public of course! lol

And last.....

This response submitted by Lisa on 10/11/01. ( )

But surely not least.....Hi Bubba Dot!

so Lisa

This response submitted by Dave Toms on 10/11/01. ( )

If I ever draw an Iowa tag (not likely with my luck) and since I haven't picked on you in a day or two, will you let me hunt on some of the "prime" (didn't want to say private on this forumn lol) spots? Pleassseeeee


Opinions, opinions...

This response submitted by marty on 10/11/01. ( )

Darn Lisa, you caught on to me - lol!

Folks, opinions are one thingÖ

But everybody seems to be blowing by the most important part of my post. The FACTS and STATISTICS that I provided about our environment and the worldwide poverty that our nation has caused and is currently causing...

Sure, I like stirring the pot occasionally. I get bored with the same ol - same ol. I need a paint schedule for this. How do you finish a seam, etc. By posting such a radical opinion amongst a bunch of conservatives I expected responses like some of these. I do appreciate the few that actually read my lengthy post. The intent of the post was to hopefully get some of you to think outside the bubble. Use the internet that's at your fingertips and research some of the issues I mentioned. It's all there in black and white (no gray this time - lol!) for you to read. Forget about my opinions of our government. Those are just opinions. Who knows what really goes on behind those closed doors. Look at the issues and draw your own conclusions.

BTW, Gaither must be on vacation. I sort've expected him to "rip me a new one" after this post! And Yoxy, I expected more out of you - I'm disappointed - lol! Actually, I do understand that issues like politics, abortion and religion, etc. are "energy suckers" and I probably wouldn't even respond to my post. It's just too much work to discuss issues that don't have an exact answer. But then again, please look at some of the big issues I brought up and draw your own conclusions. Simply put, I don't want my kids living in a toxic environment... Maybe I'm paranoid? Or maybe I am nuts? Who knows? Only time will tell...


This response submitted by marty on 10/12/01. ( )

At $308 a tag next year for NR's, I don't think it'll be a problem drawing a tag - lol!

I should hope to holler!

This response submitted by Lisa on 10/12/01. ( )

You shouldn't say the "private" word on this forum, Dave! Begg'in huh? So you admit ya picked on me.....well if your luck would come about and have the chance to hunt here. I'll let byegones be byegones...if and only IF, ya bring a chainsaw. Have plenty of wood to cut for three fireplaces, stacked neatly, kinda picky about it too. A deal?

Marty...That $308 price tag is just for Illinois residents. Great! Now I really blew it! lol

Forgive Him, for he knows not of where he speaks.

This response submitted by The Taxidermologist on 10/12/01. ( )

Marty, Marty, Marty,
Your education in how the world works is seriously lacking. I don't have the time to even begin to set you straight on how a conservative and a liberal impacts the United States. I figure much of your problem is where you were brought up. Cities are epicenters for liberalism - it is like the difference between the country mouse and the city mouse. Taxidermists are primarily country mice - self sufficient, not wanting anyone to tell us how to live our life, where to live our life, or how we can think. Cities indoctrinate the children first through the school system and second by the media - both newspaper and television. City people want government to solve all their problems for them, and think that they are actually capable of it.
Unfortunately you were raised in and amongst city people and your brain has been compromised. I was raised Ridgway Pennsylvania which has percentage wise of land, more forest than any county in PA. Soil is so poor there are few farmers, mostly loggers and a few companies formed early on, that expected a days work for a days pay. In my young life I spent time in Kentucky - very conservative, Washington DC for 14 months (Yeesh what a place), Graduate schhol in Michigan, and now in Pittsburgh. Every city is full of city mice who want paid for work even if they don't do any. Labor unions are designed to allow people to not work (Though they did their part about 80-50 years ago).
If you plot where democrats carried the vote and where republicans carried the vote, you basically have a plot of the city mice and the country mice. Places like California are full of very bizarre City people who went west.
The fact that Bill Yox pointed out your inconsistencies is a tribute to his high level of understanding of the situation. Mr. Christoforo has even a higher level, but has become radical with having to be surrounded by city folk.
I think the conflictions in your views is that you have begun the effort to actually think about how the world works. Winston Churchill once said that if a person is not a liberal when they are 21 years of age they have no heart, but if they are not a conservative by the age of 40, then they have no brain. You must think clearly about how you interpret things you read in the media and hear on television, most which is pabulum for the masses, and most of it is incorrect. (look up the word in your handy dictionary).
Marty, I think the best thing you can do for your family is to move away from big tall buildings, nuclear facilities, and liberal thinking people.


This response submitted by Dave Toms on 10/12/01. ( )

Throw in 3 hot meals and the wood ill be stacked neatly and covered! Heck I'll even throw in kindllin if ya have the stands set up in some good bottlenecks! I am putting in for Iowa and kansas this year.... you only live once!



This response submitted by marty on 10/12/01. ( )

Much like Cur, I have always respected your opinions and also your ability to articulate. But halfway through your post I did have to stand up (lol) ouch! I also do appreciate you bringing things "down to my level" with your city mouse/country mouse analogy. A few pictures would've helped me understand things better though...

#1, I am not naive enough to think that politicians are going to solve all our problems. In fact if you read my post, my lack of faith in our government and their inactions is pretty much what I was trying to hit home.

#2 I am against slackers and free meals for people that are lazy.

#3 I am against unions in general.

#4 California and Massachussetts need more conservatives (the balance that I mentioned)

#5 I don't buy the Yox statement (sorry Bill). I think Bill chose to stay out of it because debates like this are like a dog chasing it's tail. Besides, doesn't he have like a 2 year backlog?

#6 You're right. I have been "thinking about how the world works" much more lately.

#7 City mice and country mice are ALL influenced by the media. We all must base our opinions from what we see, read and hear. Country mice are no different here. The hard part is interpretation and weeding out all the crap.

#8 Maybe you're right. I have been considering moving lately. Unfortunately, the biggest consideration for me right now (believe it or not as this sounds contradictory to what you're saying) are the schools. My kids are currently in one of the best school systems in the country. I've been considering the Iowa City corridor as their schools are also tops. But, the cost of living is comparable there AND the wages ae NOT as high as they are here. So, I'm sort've stuck here for now...

Stephen, I've always wanted to be a country mouse and will be some day. As stated earlier, as far as liberal/consevatist goes - I feel that I am somewhere in the middle or maybe a little off center. I never really thought about a classification until I commented on a previous post. I think that most "normal" people also are somewhere in the middle...

BTW, I DID have to look up "pabulum" as I stated earlier. Had to blow the dust off the dictionary though.....

It's a deal, Dave

This response submitted by Lisa on 10/12/01. ( )

Shoot, I will even make ya some fresh homemade apple pie from scratch! Did I mention that there may be some hand splitting involved?

Marty, Iowa City is NOT gonna give you the country mouse atmosphere that you are seeking. Have very good friends that up and moved from there. A doctor and his wife, wanted the small town life. And a school teacher/coach and his wife (school nurse) too many problems with the metro schools. Unless you are thinking more on the out skirts of I.C. that will give you more of the "rural" way of life.

Holy Confusion

This response submitted by Confucius Ying Yang Dot on 10/12/01. ( )

Top of the morning to ya Lisa, momma Dot said "Bubba don't get your self caught up in the throes of Religion and Politics and you will go far", so I gotta do what momma says. Only in a utopian world will such ideas work, and we shall never live in a utopian society on this earth, the Dots gotta go do some evolutionary things before invent a better mouse trap....and as a baby Bubba ate lots of ceral called Pablum(sic).....Bubba called Miss Cleo and found that as the taxnet turns, so do the days of our lives, the shadow of uranus is causing confusion....

Marty, see what I mean!

This response submitted by TheTaxidermologist on 10/12/01. ( )

Your numbers 1 through 4 all are sound basic conservative ideas.
1). Liberals think politicians and government CAN solve things.
2). Liberals don't want everyone to work because what if someone thinks that it is too harsh to make everyone work. They create a huge safety net which ALLOWS there to be slackers.
3). Liberals like unions because by paying off just a few union leaders they can funnel huge amounts of money to the democratic party.
4). The liberal world think Massachusetts and California STILL don't have enough liberals. Kinda like everyone has to be moslem or they are infidels.

Basically, Mr. Yox saw you spouting all these well held conservative beliefs and attributing them to liberals, which is how I see it. You will have to learn what a true conservative and a true liberal is. I expect you to have your term paper done by next week so that we can all rest our blood pressure, and think even higher of you.

Politics do not the greatest bedfellows make. I thought the country mouse/city mouse analogy might deflect any direct attacks you felt I was making. Besides with three children I am sure that you read hundreds of books to your children over the years, and I loved that story and the one about "who will help make the bread" which is composed of one conservative and a bunch of liberals.

School districts DO NOT make good students. A good set of parents make the student, instill values in them, and create the desire to learn. A good student at Bohunk University can be just as educated as one brought up in the Northern suburb of Chicago and later educated in Yale. Our Curator of birds went to the northern suburb of Chicago "Best HighSchool in the United States" and isn't any smarter than I feel I am. His school offered about 10 languages, hundreds of extracurricular and sports choices, but basic math and english and the desire to learn is the only real education necessary. The desire cannot be made by the teacher - unless that teacher is also a parent.

All this is of course just my opinion. For extra bonus points after your term paper is done, make a list of fairy tales and attribute the characters to be liberal or conservative. For example, the little pig who built the brick house was a conservative.

Debate is healthy!

Okay, okay...

This response submitted by marty on 10/12/01. ( )

I'm going home with my tail between my legs! Lisa, I was indeed talking about the surrounding areas of I.C. Not the boonies, but I don't want to shock my system too much! Bubba, I like you! Stephen, as I said I'm somewhere in the middle and you are correct in your statements 1 thru 4. Also, Stephen you are correct in stating that parental involvement is key. But, having graduated with a teaching certificate in the state of Iowa, I have had hands-on experience teaching in bad and good schools. And I must say that I believe good schools can make a world of difference. I student taught first in an inner city high school in Chicago. 45 students per classroom was the norm. And, at least 15% of each class could not speak english. And, there was absolutely no funds to do ANYTHING. I could honestly say that I as a greenhorn was already a far better (student) teacher than most of the other teachers that "taught" there. Most of these teachers received their certification from one of the local crappy "Teacher schools" (I'm not going to mention names). The students were angry and hated being there. Needless to say the whole experience was very depressing and productivity was minimal at best.

Then, my second half of student teaching was at a high school in Cedar Rapids that had won a "spirit contest" that was held nationwide. Supplies were EVERYWHERE! The students didn't need to be motivated. They loved school and I did too. The two situations were one extreme to the other. Believe me you, a MUCH higher percentage of the C.R. kids continued their education and made something of their lives. I cringe to think how the others' turned out. If you were wondering - I never pursued teaching after graduating because (frankly) I'm too lazy! To be a good/great teacher takes a LOT of work and dedication. Statistically speaking, good schools generally create better students than crappy schools. Of course there are exceptions, but I prefer to put the odds in my kids' favor. After all, I don't want them to grow up to be lowly taxidermists - lol!

Ok, Ill bite

This response submitted by Bill Yox on 10/12/01. ( )

Marty, I SURE hope you were kidding about me and my turn around time. Why does the fact that I have a lot of work come to play so often in here? Anyway, Stephen did make a few valid points on my behalf (thanks!) so if you seriously DO want my opinion in detail, just give me a jingle via phone, and we shall converse. Its just too much typing for me. 716-637-2450. Im going to tell everyone here if you DONT call, so now youre on the spot, Marty! LOL!


This response submitted by marty on 10/12/01. ( )

I've submitted a "new and improved" post that hopefully clarifies some things. Check out "Bill(s), Stephen and Everybody else"...

See, folks?

This response submitted by Bill Yox on 10/13/01. ( )

Hes already trying to squirm out of calling! hahaha. Im not typing, cutting and pasting like Gaither, I can tell you that!

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