Social Studies Lesson

Submitted by Amy - the Taxi-Wife on 3/6/02. ( )

This is in response to the assertion that the 100% NTA mandate will cause state associations to lose members.

Bob, the scientific method you have used to make this statement is called the "tabloid journalism" method, primarily preferred by those who enjoy reading about Princess Di's affair with Elvis in the checkout lane. Essentially, this involves having an opinion and printing it in very large type.

Now, I normally teach 2nd grade, kindergarten, and pre-school. However, I will make an exception and try to pass along basic high school information on the "scientific method". (Clue: it does not involve forming an opinion and restating it loudly every time you open your mouth.)

The correct method to determine whether or not something is true is by conducting an impartial study. The initial idea is called a theory. The results of the study, if it is handled in an impartial, scientifically correct method, are called facts.

To determine whether or not the 100% mandate has hurt state membership, one could poll NTA Affiliated State Presidents as to their membership numbers before and after they became affiliated. This would give you a factual answer as to the effect of the mandate, rather than a theoretical or hysterical answer.

In fact, this study has already been done. It turns out that the 100% mandate has not hurt the membership numbers of the state associations who have become NTA affiliated. If you do not believe me, feel free to contact the state presidents and re-do the study. Their numbers are all listed in Outlook.

It's amazing how facts are much less interesting than a lot of hysterical ideas.

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This response submitted by ? on 3/6/02. ( )

I'm wondering how many members these affiliated states have? Deleware? Are any of them even remotely close to a state like Pa? Makes you think doesn't it?

Only one big problem with your post..Its false

This response submitted by John Thompson on 3/6/02. ( )

In your futile attempt to belittle Bob's study you have only pointed out to others on here that its very apparent that your surroundings (young kids) have had an adverse affect on your knowledge and or capabilities to communicate with adults.
The fact it took you as long as it did to just come out and say you know little to nothing about this subject I think speaks for itself so maybe you should just keep your day job and remain "the Taxidermists wife" because your ability to argue points on here seems to be hampered by your lack of knowledge on this subject and I am willing to bet on life itself.
Now lets get to some facts you seem to not understand, more than 65% of States that have gone 100% have done so in the last 8 to 10 months, you would think that being a teacher you would be able to grasp the concept that we won't see any affect at all for another two months and through out the summer.
Of course you can always just resort to your lengthy posts explaining to us how smart you are.


This response submitted by Dave on 3/6/02. ( )

Amy, I've been reading the post about the 100% and wanted to air my views on it. We had our WI state convention the last week of Feb. and that is when we had to make our decision weather to go 100% or not. John Janelli came and spoke to us at our banquet. At our general meeting I asked how many people were going for their A.E. and I had two people in the room saying they were and that not going 100% would effect them.
As of that weekend we had 225 members. There were close to 100 that attended the general meeting and it was voted down unamious not to go 100%. I think I can almost speak for the other big states on how we feel about the members that we will lose if we go 100%. I know for the WTA we can not afford to lose any. We run our convention with a Sports Show and if we don't have the mounts there for the public to come and see at the show, our income will be reduced substantialy. Would the NTA make up for what we would lose?
I do feel what the NTA is trying to do is good and I will continue to be a member. But as the saying goes " Blood is thicker than water" and I owe alot more to my State Assoc then the NTA.
I talked to two state presidents that went 100% and they both said that their membership dropped. If we would have gone I bet that we would have less than 100 members and would see another Assoc get formed.
I would like to see the NTA change their mind and work on getting to all the state conventions and work on selling the NTA and how good of an Association it is. I enjoy going to the NTA show every year, I have made some very close friends that I would not have met if it wasn't for being a NTA member, but not everyone feels that it will benefit them and that they should not be forced to do so.
Dave Blank
WTA President

That's DelAware, ?

This response submitted by George on 3/6/02. ( )

And we have 100%, how much does PA have? There are 1800 NTA members in affiliated states. In 1999, the state of New Mexico voted to affiliate with only 24 members. TWO YEARS LATER John, they now have 46 members. It is truly amazing how hypnotic the NTA has become for individuals who aren't members.

You are discussing a survey, not a study

This response submitted by Amy on 3/7/02. ( )

The difference is that a survey asks theoretical questions. It is also easily skewed by the way the questions are phrased to achieve the results the questioner wants. The answers are based on the current, immediate opinion of the person being questioned, which is directly impacted by such things as whether or not they are hungry, irritated, or haven't balanced their checkbook yet. This is why surveys are considered "soft" science, as opposed to a replicable scientific study.

The study of which I speak did not consider newly affiliated states -- only those which affiliated in 1999 and 2000. You are correct that it is too soon to tell for those states which affiliated last fall. However, the facts do show that those states affiliating earlier did not lose membership numbers over time.

Dave, I don't know which state presidents you spoke with. If they were presidents of newly (2001) affiliated states, it is possible they won't have true numbers until after their show. Many people don't renew until then. The numbers in the study referred to membership for the entire year, which of course includes those who renew at the show.

And, dear John? You may want to get private grammar lessons. Working with only adults seems to have impaired your grammar. I personally feel that working with small children has prepared me well for discussions on this forum.



This response submitted by michael sestak on 3/7/02. ( )

AMY, sometimes it seems that we really are arguing with small children on this forum.
opinions, being what they are and that everybody has one makes this a great place to vent and discuss items of interest.
however, non of us should take things to personal on this site or in real life, it just causes to much stress.
i think if the nta went to all of the states shows and discussed what it is they are trying to accomplish and what the benfits are for the states members they would stand a better chance of accomplishing their goals.
if we dont stand up for ourselves who will ?


This response submitted by Leanna on 3/7/02. ( )

Would you consider emailing me please?! Thanks, either way you decide. By the way, you are in the right job, your patience with children is astounding.

Amy, thank you for your imput

This response submitted by BobB on 3/7/02. ( )

We may not be on the same educational level, but I am confident we can find a way to communicate. My email is real (as is my name). I extend the same offer to you as anyone, point out the errors in my report and let's correct them.

That offer as stood for over a year already. In that time I have had two inquiries. The first from a NTA board member telling me how the NTA benefits from having an office at no cost in the exc. director's home. I didn't even have the heart to point out to the board member how the NTA's own annual fiscal report (in Outlook) listed $1300 just for utilities on that office.

A week or so ago, another NTA board member told me that the membership was aware of the $6,600+ commission paid out to the exc. director for the NTA Texas convention. Again I offered to remove that information after he sent me the copy of the annual fiscal report that lists the payment. I also directed him to the yearly NTA fiscal statement for the year in question, that listed the incomes and expenses related to that convention - but not the just over $6,600 bonus.

I check my email everday, no reply as of yet, I'll watch my mailbox also.

Amy, as a taxidermist's wife in my eyes you are more than qualified to express your views here or anywhere. Are you also active with your state group? In my state, our taxidermy group owes many thanks to wives of taxidermists. Many have been some of our most important members serving our groups in terrific fashion in both offices, board seats, and on commities. Not practicing taxidermy as no bearing.

As the President of Wisconsin's group told you above, our board and membership continues to struggle with this issue. I believe every current member of our state board belongs to the NTA.

Can you imagine the stress they deal with. I admire them for giving the survival of our state group their first priority. I would vote to re-elect any of them. They are an honorable group.

Now before anyone attacks Dave for his response above. He belongs to every taxidermy group out there. He is the WTA president, past and or present board member of IGT, and active within NTA.

We are not friends, he is not defending me above. In fact the last time we saw each other, we made a scene - to put it nicely. So don't waste your efforts to attack him, if you think he is only my friend.

Dear Bob

This response submitted by Amy on 3/7/02. ( )

If you are concerned that the NTA's finances are handled improperly, I would suggest you attend the State President's meeting this summer in Missouri. As state president, Dave will be there -- perhaps you could share transportation expenses to alleviate any severe burden.

The financial questions you have really should be addressed there, by Wesley Touchstone, who handles the Treasurer's position. Frankly, most NTA members are not as deeply familiar with all the finances as you care to be. I personally believe that there is no impropriety, and that the Crains are entitled to compensation for their efforts. They do receive money above and beyond the direct expenses incurred. I understand and accept that -- they do a lot of work organizing the show, and deserve to be compensated. They do not charge rent for the use of space in their home -- perhaps that was where the confusion about office expense began. Yes, they do receive payment for the expenses -- there is secretarial help involved in the large mailings, phone expenses, etc.
Since I am not an accountant (aren't you glad!), I'm not even going to attempt to wade through the Treasurer's Report. All of the Board Members & Officers have contact information listed at I'm sure they would be happy to clarify anything you find confusing.

The executive director's position comes up for applications every few years -- if you or anyone else truly feels it is being mismanaged, certainly you could run for office & handle it yourself.

In closing, yes, I am very involved in my state association. I am also not going to jump on Dave; he did an excellent job of explaining his concern that Wisconsin might lose members if they affiliated, without presenting this opinion as a fact. I can appreciate that concern. I cannot answer to his concern about his state, because I can't predict the future. I can only look to the states which have affiliated and have not lost members, and look to the newly affiliated states to see how their membership numbers do this summer. That is factual information. It may or may not apply in Wisconsin.

theres a big difference

This response submitted by Bill Yox on 3/7/02. ( )

The states that have become affiliated do not have 200 to 300 members. They are the smaller states, and I think its easier to convince them to affiliate. Why is it that a state as pro-NTA as Pennsylvania doesnt? NY, Mich, Wis, the list goes on. SOMETHING is wrong, whats the reason? I know its not just that "dont tell me to do anything, Im a self- employed taxidermist" mentality. Theres got to be a better explaination...

and by the way...

This response submitted by Bill Yox on 3/7/02. ( )

I always do this, forget to add one more thing. I say that Cindy Crain is worth every penny we DO pay her. I know I wouldnt wanna do that job. You cant imagine what all she sends here, and the timing, too, for example.

Amy, I'm sorry I confused you

This response submitted by BobB on 3/7/02. ( )

If you have even read my report, then you know I too feel your exc. director is underpaid. I say so in my report.

I only provided those examples about the convention % payment and office utilities, as my report on the 100% mandate is being challenged as based on inaccurate information. Those have been the only 2 requests to change anything in my report in over a year's time.

I am still waiting for information showing me that the annual NTA budget did show the convention % payment for the Texas convention. If it arrives I will correct any error. It is that simple.

Again if you have taken the time to read my report, its purpose may make more sense to you. As taxidermists from across the country were facing this issue, I felt the best way to an informed decision was knowledge. As a parent of school age children, I hope my children have teachers that understand and teach that 'knowledge is power'.

My report took a look at the history of the mandate as well as things such as benefits and budgets. I fully believe the exc. director also is entitled to compensation for the expense of keeping the NTA's national office in his spare room. Without going back to my report, I think I also mention, that must save the NTA funds.

Attempts to discredit my report range from attacks on me, my state, the WTA, past Wis politicians and now even recently that my report was not scientific - Amy it was never meant to be.

I hope the person who began that one, can understand I wasn't trying to find the cure to cancer, but just look into the issue of the 100% mandate

I know people are tiring of my offer to correct any errors in my report, but it will stand as long as people want to claim it is not accurate.

Again that you for your concerns and if you wish to continue this discussion, please email me. We need not waste valuable space here.

You need not worry about anyone's finacial ability to get to MO, I am sure that those attending can afford to.

Bob I have to say this and consequences be damned

This response submitted by Leanna on 3/8/02. ( )

Bob, besides the fact that I for one am really really tired of your redundant blustering censure, I can't help but wonder, what is it you are trying to prove? Bob, this ain't even about just the NTA anymore Bob, it's about you and your timeworn diatribe of wordy repetition thats starting to sound a bit like "One Flew Over The Cuckoos Nest"....great show but with the right thespian mind you.

Bob, your credentials if we must call them as such, have plummeted. Maybe you are not getting any email correcting your pedestalled website, because no one gives a hoot in high water of the way you twist words to your way of thinking as you do on the forums here, Bob. Maybe people are starting to see what you really are all about. Why should anyone place value on ONE mans way of dissecting something already analyzed, as compared to a NATIONAL conferment?

And while I'm at it, Bob, why do you put so much effort on "researching" an association YOU consider so heinously CORRUPT?

Bob, no matter what you say, the NTA is always and will always be for the taxidermist and taxidermy, and all that those two titles entail. Go ahead and tell me I'm wrong.


This response submitted by BobB on 3/8/02. ( )

Sorry to disapoint you Leanna, I do not feel the NTA is corrupt as you suggest.

I do feel we need strong state level taxidermy groups.

I do feel we need a national group.

I do feel we need to promote that group and get potential members to want to group.

I do feel that we need to stop having attacks on those that are against the mandate.

I do feel we need to get past these battles between individuals and look at ways to repair the damage and move on.

Continual insults and attacks are getting us no where. They certainly are not helping the NTA - the national voice we all want.

Yes, this is a lesson!

This response submitted by Jim, X-NTA member on 3/8/02. ( )

Wow! Is there no end to this?
Amy and George I realise are apart of the NTA and from one of the posts, I believe Dave and Bob to be from the same stateóbut not friends.
I will address this post to the four of you.

Amy you don't need to look outside of the NTA to see that this mandate has reduced membership. I am an example, as are several other people who have left the NTA because of the way this 100% has been handled.
To Bob and George, the two of you have been fairly mature here, but I have read your words on other posts and really have a hard time believing either of you are helping your cause.
Finally to Dave, I understand that Wisconsin as a membership took a vote and as a group decided on this issue. Regardless of the result, I would ask the NTA to look at the example Wisconsin has presented and in the future, remember that the NTA Board of Directors should represent its membership and not its own interests

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