aaa , umm, NSTA

Submitted by Randal R. Waites on 3/9/02. ( rwenglish1@aol.com ) 205.188.208.6

aaa, umm, ooo, well, I won't say no more, but the members of the NSTA are no doubt proud as hell. rw

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above, referance to Aquatic-Art Taxidermy

This response submitted by Randal R. Waties on 3/9/02. ( rwenglish1@aol.com ) 205.188.208.7

Sorry, forgot to provide the referance for my comment. rw
http://www.aquatic-art.com/quality.htm


Of course we are

This response submitted by JT on 3/9/02. ( jsuurvarik@msn.com ) 198.247.241.177

And why shouldn't we be. Aren't you proud of your association. I should point out that Aquatic Art taxidermy and Nebraska State Taxidermists are separate entities. I do happen to be the web master for both of the web sites. but that is it. Shouldn't your statement read "Boy That dude at aquatic Art Taxidermy is sure proud"? Or something like that? Sure the Gallery on our association's site may not have the greatest mounts but, they are displaying our members' mounts. It's a web site. You know? like, it's fun and it's to promote more awareness to the public and our taxidermists. You guys should bring some mounts to the show. It's March 15th-17th. Next week! hurry up and call Mitch Schmitz or Kay Kranau.

See you at the show?
Justin suurvarik


your site, code of ethics

This response submitted by Randal R. Waites on 3/9/02. ( rwenglish1@aol.com ) 205.188.208.7

I was responding to your site, and the fact you were puting down other taxidermist, I would think that should be covered in your code of ethics. If you wanted to show fish that you had mounted early on in your career, and show the flaws, and compare to your work of today, than is one thing. But to use someone elses, I thought showed bad taste, apparently you feel a little guilty, by your defensive response.
I will have to wait untill the Hooker polling report is in, as far as all of the NSTA members being proud of your web page. rw


I think he was just telling the truth

This response submitted by shawn on 3/9/02. ( stutzmantaxidermy@yahoo.com ) 162.40.69.162

those fish were ugly and that's probably why they are trying to sell them on e-bay. did ya take the time to look at justin's work before you snapped at him? I just joined the nsat and can only hope to be that good at fish someday. I did a couple of bass recently , my first fish ever and I think they look awhole lot better than the one's on e-bay.


Shawn and Justin

This response submitted by Taxidermy fan on 3/9/02. ( ) 64.75.150.173

You guys must be either best friends or cut from the same cloth? Even though those fish reffered to were of poor quality, you just don't go and put them down publicly! It's common courtesy to show respect for others work no matter what level or quality!

How would you feel Justin if a Master fish taxidermist puts up a web site with all of your pictures and points out all the bad qualities?

Like Cur and the others said, you work is average! Like myself , you are but a young person in this great field. You really need to open your eyes and mind and stop thinking your work is the best. Taxidermy is a lifelong journey of learning and improving.Once you believe your work is the best, you will cease to improve and learn more. Your skill level and quality will remain the same!



Never claimed to be a master

This response submitted by Justin on 3/9/02. ( jsuurvarik@msn.com ) 198.247.241.177

I also forgot that CUR was the only person that can critique others' work. CUR has been at this forever but, I didn't see his fish in Simon Blackshaw's sculpture. What makes him the best? Everyone is a self proclaimed expert. I do appreciate the observations made of my work from CUR(words from the wise one) and everyone else though. Some things I know about. Others I know that it's just a bunch of crap from jaw flappers that speak(type)before anything else enters their minds. Why is everyone in such a big tizzy? Are some of those fish yours at the game and parks office? or on Ebay? Maybe you could try to adjust a few things. I never said I was perfect. I just state that My fish are better than a lot of others. I also don't say mine don't need room for improvement. It's a web site made to promote a part time business,GEEZ. Everybody needs improvement(except CUR).

Didn't know I would piss so many people off. How should I change things on my site so I don't piss everyone off. I don't want to make any more enemies over this stuff. I enjoy talking with you all and helping the newbies out once in a while. Only constructive suggestions please. Otherwise shut your yapper. I suppose I could mount some fish to look like those on Ebay on purpose. But, that would be purposefully wasting good fish.

Although, you gotta admit, those examples from Ebay given are very bad.

Justin


What did he do wrong?

This response submitted by Mike on 3/10/02. ( ) 12.110.9.34

He did not name who mounted the fish! He is making the public aware of the bad taxidermy that so many of the pro's on here complain about! I have a number of competitors mounts in my shop that clients have brought in to have me FIX! I hang a sign by them that says you could have someone else mount your fish! I do not name who mounted it, but it shows them there is a difference. If you try and explain those things in words sometimes they don't think it is that big of a deal! You show them how it looks, they get the picture!


wow, you guys are something

This response submitted by Bill Yox on 3/10/02. ( ) 205.188.209.14

If someone wants to show how good they think they are, why not leave out the so-called lesser work of others, and post your good stuff against pics of real fish? If the work were good, anyone viewing it could plainly see it. Show how good you are, rather then how bad youre not...


Many points missed

This response submitted by Justin on 3/10/02. ( jsuurvarik@msn.com ) 198.247.241.43

It is not slanderous or defamatory to use examples of others' work if names of people or businesses are not used. It is even done in our great Breakthrough manuals that we all preach about. Have you ever taken a look at any taxidermy manual to see how they give examples of bad taxidermy to someone who doesn't know what to look for? As long as all identity is kept unknown, there is no harm done. It is however, slander and defamation when someone does it on a public forum and gives names to identify who they are speaking of. It's also really a great idea to give your name when you do such a thing so that everyone will know who you are.

Justin Suurvarik

P.S. I know my work is not the best in the world, but it holds it's own. Others experts that have posted on how bad my fish are have web sites that display their "great" fish work also. Every one of us could find many flaws on their mounts too.


bottom line, Justin

This response submitted by Bill Yox on 3/10/02. ( ) 64.12.96.105

Regardless of how folks choose to address your style of work, you sure didnt put YOUR berst foot forward by doing what you did. When a publication like Breakthrough depicts poor quality mounts for an article, they also get permission. Putting poor quality (your opinion) pics into your site, and also describing where they came from IS at least poor taste, if not slanderous. Must potential clients would see not an improvement in quality, but a warning flag...


What happend to honor and decency?

This response submitted by CUR on 3/10/02. ( Wildart@prodigy.net ) 64.196.210.73

Is it OK now to trounce another for personal gain? God, I hope not. We certainly need to bring back the draft to teach teamwork to the puppies. I made this thread on the earlier post, but figured I would move it here too, just in case.

Well Mike,

You don't get my drift, do you? When one indulges in the crafts or the arts, the product is an extension of self. If you want to sell cars, you may want to compare the features of one against another to gain an edge. That selling method is fine for some items, but not for a product from the heart and mind. Taxidermy should not be a cut-throat business where one feels the need to better another to promote an end product. Perhaps is is all this silly competition talk and the constant struggle to win a ribbon, or the trumped up conditions the score sheets use to split hairs, but whatever the reason, a man's work should speak for itself - without having to compare it to the work of another.

Are you naive enough to believe the public doesn't know the difference between good and bad work? Is there an inate paranoia or insecurity that keeps us from just saying, "Here is my work! This is my price!", without fear of rejection? Do we have to offer up comparison works from times past or what we consider to be poor quality just to justify selling our own?

I have been in this business for nearly five decades. The blow-hards who never tire of telling why their work is better than another's seldom make it in this field for long. Did you ever consider the fact that each customer you win over with the better quality argument is a lost customer as soon as someone better than yourself comes along? Believe you me, someone better always comes along, and when they do, a customer that was gained with the "better than him" argument is going to apply the wisdom you gave and abandon your shop for the newer and better taxidermist.

Have the courage to stand on your work without having to ridicule or belittle the works of others. There is no need to do that. Turn-around speed and keeping your word is just as important as the quality of your work. I have never felt the need to make those ridiculous comparisons, and know of no true professional who does.

Finally, Mike, I did not do as I said not. I pointed out two facts, the first being that the work quality was not the "best" and that the owner of that site wouldn't like it much if someone else did that to him. If it is all right with you to gain at the expense of others, you are not of the fiber that makes men. This silly comparison game is for children and Yugo salesmen. There is no room in a professional field for that kind of crap.


One more thing

This response submitted by CUR on 3/11/02. ( wildart@prodigy.net ) 64.196.210.129

Who the hell is Simon blackshaw?


Yes, Cur I am nieve!

This response submitted by Mike on 3/11/02. ( ) 12.110.9.87

Cur, I have many clients show me pictures of their mounts and they look just like the bad ones on his web page! They think they are great! I do not offer my opinion about their mount, because I do not trash other taxidermists. I do show my clients the difference between a good quality mount and crap that others have paid for! I do not know who mounted the bad mounts nor do I care! They do not understand alot of the probems! They don't think a skin mounted head all dried up and shrivled looks that bad when you explain it, but show them one and they understand. Show them bad fin position and they understand. Show them poor paint job they understand. Show them a poorly carved body and they understand! Many of them do not understand until they see it. You did just tell him that his work was not that good on a public forum! He did not ask for your opinion, but you trashed him! If you tell everyone Billy Bob Johnsons fish are bad and here are pictures, then that is wrong! You did exactly what you are complaining about. What happend to all this "EDUCATE THE PUBLIC TALK"!


One more thing!

This response submitted by Mike on 3/11/02. ( ) 12.110.9.87

Cur,

At who's expense? who is he hurting? Who did he attack? He did not belittle anyone! Nobody knows who's fish they are! You however did! I'll bet those car designers would disagree that their work is not from the heart and self reflection! They take as much pride in their designs as you do!


hahaha, Im with you, CUR

This response submitted by Bill Yox on 3/11/02. ( ) 152.163.188.229

At the risk of accusations of taking sides, I get you, anyway. Others do too, but are still shaking their heads too much to start typing, lol. The best way to make all those self-promoting statements is to hang out your work for public view. The mount will speak for itself, if its able to...Simon Blackshaw is the artist from the Netherlands who did such good work at this past World Show. He won Best of Show as I recall, and was very humble as well.


Well, well

This response submitted by CUR on 3/11/02. ( wildart@prodigy.net ) 64.196.210.129

I know who the Nederlander is. That was a funny...remember them? There are a hell of a lot of good carvers who do not compete. He was the best in the competition, and more power to him.

Mikey, I did not trash the guy, I said his work was average, and not "the best" as the site echoed. You keep trying to point out an error I don't believe I made. Justin, on the other hand seems to be trying to make some adjustments and did not get near as riled up as you have. This whole affair did not involve you in the beginning, yet you have taken it on yourself to type a thousand words in defense of a lame argument. The nuts and bolts of automotive manufacture have so many elements that the time and distance from the original designer to a finished product is years and tens of thousands of miles. The final product is the result of the labor and thought of thousands of people. Our field just ain't that complex.

You are trying to argue apples and oranges and you are arguing elephants and titmice. Educating the public is fine as long as there is not a comparison made that could injure another. I prefer just offering up a work to the end customer. I figure that if he wanted a head full of taxidermy nonsense, he would have bought a couple of videos and a manual or two and done the durn thing himself. I am old school perhaps, not from the class of buy things and put em on other things. My work is my statement and my signature. I figure that my part of the transaction is to do the very best I can and try to improve a bit with each piece I finish.

When folks ask me, "how much", I tell them my price and if they don't like it, they are welcome to go the hell elsewhere. In fact, at this point in my life, I rarely get asked that question. I am just one man, and can do only so much. The folks who work for me just work in the art end of the business. The taxidermy is all mine. I don't need to compare my work to another bozo's creation. Mine speaks for itself, and so should yours. I have never said that my work was the best. It is certainly the best I can do. I don't feel that it need by compared to any other. You see, the only place anyone can get my work is here, in my studio, and at my hand, I don't educate, and I don't ridicule, but I call a spade a spade, and no amount of trivial pursuit on your part is going to win the point or change my mind.

That was between me and JT, friend, and really none of yore gawd dammned business.


You did not answer my questions!

This response submitted by Mike on 3/11/02. ( ) 12.110.9.91

If it is between you two then why did you dicuss it on a public forum? You said he was gaining at others expense. Who's expense? Just like always on here, someone differs with the pro's and they are told to shut up and stay out of it! JT did not ask for your opinion any more then you asked for mine! Yet you attacked him personally! My opinion says you are wrong! Why don't you stay out of JT's business? Again you have told me I did something wrong by voicing my opinion yet you did the same thing by voicing yours! What is wrong with this picture? You started this, but you don't seem to like it when you are questioned!


Well Mike

This response submitted by Cur on 3/12/02. ( wildart@prodigy.net ) 64.196.210.94

First of all, I didn't begin the discussion. Secondly, my post seemed to me, at least, to be in plain English. I told the fellow that he shouldn't cite his work as the best, since it isn't that at all, it is just average. Secondly, I mentioned that he might not like it if someone like myself were to example his work as a subordinate effort. I didn't intend to ridicule him, but I did intend to berate him for using the work of another to better himself. Now, I seem to have gotten joined at the hip with you for whatever reason. Justin has tried to correct his stance, yet you go on blindly trying to make something more out of what I said.

You make it seem like your disagreement is a big deal. It may be to you, but it doesn't mean a hill of beans to me. My "attack" is not an attack on JT's person, but rather the concept of using others to better oneself. You mention "you pros". What do you mean by that? Am I spending all this time arguing with an amateur? did you ever consider that us "pros" are all wise enough to know better? Think about it.


Your ability?

This response submitted by Mike on 3/12/02. ( ) 12.110.9.115

I am only giving my opinion of what justin did, and that I think what you did was wrong! You are the one telling us of your many years of experience and ability! You very clearly stated that your ABILITY was superior to Justins! Exactly the same thing that you are complaining about! Yes I like to give support for someone on here if I agree with what they are saying! I have not aken it personal at all! It is almost entertaining to watch how your words change when you are mad! I agree with what Justin did, period! I think what you did was wrong, Period! Can it get any more simple?


CUR...

This response submitted by Bill Yox on 3/12/02. ( ) 205.188.209.14

Im nothing if not an optimist, but Im thinking he gets you now...hahaha!


Ah, Mike

This response submitted by CUR on 3/13/02. ( wildart@prodigy.net ) 64.196.210.86

How ever did you finish English Lit with all that reading between the lines? Well, in a comparative sense, I did ask how the man would feel if I were to place his work next to mine as an example of inferior work. Actually my work is not nearly as good as Justin's fish. Where fish are concerned, I am a rank amateur. NOW, does that make you happy? All of this rhetoric is to no end. You feel an urge to defend something because you don't like the way another frames a sentence or a concept. Well, bud, you failed to move me. There aren't enough words in the world to allow you to turn the primary thesis of this argument into a sidebar to be replaced by your allusions. That is called spin doctoring. It's like this: You lose, I lose, ergo, you and I are losers. You failed to change my mind, thereby you are a failure. Does that kind of Clinton era logic sound familiar? Give it up. I have. I am a quitter. You are now alone, thereby you are a loner. I am going to go have a drink with the rest of "the Pros".


Short memory?

This response submitted by Mike on 3/13/02. ( ) 12.110.9.43

Your words were what if someone of your "ABILITY" placed his work next to yours! Sounds different when you leave out a certain word huh! How else can you take that? Do you have mirrors to use, so you don't crash as you backpedal like that? Have a nice drink it has been fun chating!


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