After just returning from a state convention, I find myself having mixed feelings concerning competition results. Some have posted before feeling that the best entry should set the bar so to speak for what is a first place entry. Some have made clear that entries are judged against a set of standards, not against each other. We also have to keep in mind that associations are about promoting and educating, and hoping in the end that all participants will have an enjoyable experience and want to return. So lets assume that for whatever reason the entries in a particular division did not score well, that the judging was fair and honest and consistent with what the association expects, however the entries did not score well. Assume that the "best" entry could only warrant a low second, should that entry be used to set the curve and be raised to a first{and all others proportionately}or left where it was scored. keep in mind that "best of category" awards in many assoc. will only be awarded if the entry is a first place. If a curve is to be set who should set it, the judge or the assoc.? It always seems that if the entries scored low it is assumed that the judging was too hard. Most assoc. have a rule that if you blue ribbon twice you have to advanced to the next level. I feel like if I were to give a low second entry a first by applying a curve I would be doing them an injustice by helping force them into a division they may not be ready for. I'm sure that for just as many participants that would love to have their score "bumped", there are as many that only want what they have earned. So, should a curve be employed? who should determine this? should a "best of category" go to simply the highest scoring entry even if it is not a first? can there be a situation where everyone goes away happy? I had alot of people approach me with these topics, I gave my opinions, however I would like to hear how others may feel. Thanks and have a great day ......Ken
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I have to agree with you Ken. I feel that in now way should there be any kind of curve set in any competition.... By doing this it's changing the standards for competition. Some states do have lower standards on the way they want there competitors judged, this is where you can say that there really is a curve set. Some contestants get very insulted and may not come back if they don't get what they feel they deserved. Our ego's get insulted and then that's that. Well, some states are trying to build up so they do ask the judges not to be as hard and give out a blue to those that don't really deserve it. Now this person thinks his work is good and goes to another state show and gets hammered there cause that states standard is set at a higher level now what. I'm sure that person will complain and get even more upset with the judge when he tells then hey I get a BOC in this state and I didn't even get a ribbon here what's up with that.
This is when I will agree a bit with George what does classify a person as a Master. He knows for sure that some of the work in the Master's is really not that of a person who knows his work. He got there cause his state told the judge to lenient. So it's a tough situation here. Go by your what you know and what really deserves a blue. It took me long enough to get mine and I feel that just because I lose this time I may bitch a bit but I always come back with a vengeance.
Now I have seen judging done where I felt it was wrong because the judge liked a piece artisticly more than the next one. I have and confronted them when they say well tis is wrong and that's wrong but didn't take off for this. Then come to my piece and then they say well this is wrong and that wrong and I took off for that. Well being the person I am I confront the judge and ask them in a nice way why did you take off for mine and didn't take it off for the other person.
Well it's very hard for a judge to talk about it then. They put there foot in their mouth and didn't do it correctly. That's where I find judging wrong. A judge should judge a piece first then go for other ways to find out whose best.
The times I lost with some of the judges was because I screwed up and they showed where I did. That's what I call good judging when you know for a fact that you f*&ked up and the judge shows you where you did. I'll respect you better then.
But this is a personal feeling and it also stinks but all judging should follow a certain standard no matter what.
The Competition Comittee has the "right" to curve scores at our show. It was implemented YEARS ago when a "judge" came and gave horrendous scores to every WT Deer mount not on his form. The thing is, we have NEVER had to use it. All the judges we have used since have ALL done a fair and consistant job. Some were "harder" than others but that is life. Some guys will hit you harder than others. Hey, you might as well take your lumps at the state level before you spend a wad of CA$H at the Nationals to get hammered. HARD judging NEVER bothers me. The ONLY time a judge ticks me off is when they are inconsistent. NOW THAT burns me up!
You guys make valid points. Im not for the curve, even for the reasons that Jim explained. I know and understand his associations position, as I recall that event. I still wouldnt, and am glad they havent had to. When a judge, a show, and a competition committee stops to realize that a blue ribbon is also a source of advertisement and marketing for a mans business, his livelihood, as well as an impact on his competitors business, theyll think differently, I hope.
By that same token, some state shows are so small and feeble, barely hanging on, that a bit of blue in that competition hall would go a LONG way towards next years support. Its a tough call. I cant adjust 1st place ribbons. Luckily Im seldom asked to. I dont mind bringing the bottom up, though. I see no harm in a borderline no ribbon entry getting nudged up to just barely a 4th, etc. It has no bearing on the awards yet encourages that person with a reward for what he HAS accomplished. I feel very proud knowing that a small pat on the back might help that artist in the future.
Basically, we all strive for consistency in judging and wish for a first to be a first regardless of what show youre in. Last, I know I judge against nature. The live animal out doors is the standard. If I was judging with that shows best mount as the standard then I would have pictures of that mount as my reference...and I dont. And neither do the other competitors. As Ive stated before, my biggest worry in every show is staying consistent. I know my subject, but the number of entries has made it challenging to keep them...consistent.
Sorry Ken, if this offends you, but your attitude is all too typical for the "high end" competition guys. I don't feel that the original intent was to set a "standard".
Our NTA scoresheets are a great example. They are quite explicit in some areas and vague in others. The tell you what flaws are to be looked at, but the DON'T assign value to those flaws. Bill Yox knows quite well that he's judged some super high competitions that the "BEST" mount really wasn't nearly as good as the "BEST" had been in years before.
I look at competitions just like you would look at a horse race. Our state shows are the county fairs while the regionals are the state fairs, and the Nationals or Worlds end up being the Kentucky Derby. Every horserace has a winner and a loser and in betweens. When a judge comes to Delaware, I simply ask him to JUDGE THE SHOW. Once a judge takes off those blinders about the "standard" and judges the show, none of this "curve" comes into play. The closest I ever come to competition is here in Delaware and I only do it to put tax exempt money from my shop into my state association. My blue ribbons and my "most artistic" are simply county fair awards and I'm neither so dumb nor ego struck that I envision any of them winning awards in larger venues, any more than those nags that run at Delaware Park could compete with Funny Cide on a bad day.
The intent of competitions is to showcase work to those who don't compete or to your customers AND as a learning experience for those who do. If your ego can't take a few harsh lessons in reality, I'd suggest you stay home. What do you think the people who pay for admission to your show would think if they went in after the ribbons were awarded and didn't find a single blue ribbon? Do you think they'd come back next year? Do you think they'd be interested in taking their work to any of you? One day I'd like to see taxidermy conventions and competitions used more as a showcase for talent than a balm for bruised egos. Sadly, ain't that much time left in the universe.
I believe some judges put their ego on the line every time they judge.
here is what I mean by this. If you think you are "The Best" in your field and no body can match your work, and you judge a show like this, I believe it is not fair to the competitors. A state show should not take a "Best in The World" entry to get a first place. If anyone thinks you can enter a piece with nothing wrong with it I would like to see it. Every mount will have things incorrect or not convincing. I think the bar is often set too high. As a judge, I have given first place ribbons to entries with some problems. But I am sure to tell the competitor what I thought about the mistakes and how to improve it.
I've seen judges take a beautiful mount that is very well done, and pick at it till until they lower it down a ribbon. This pick it down attitude is often what competitors do when comparing their work to someone that scored the same or higher. Look at this, Look at that, The nostril is wrong. the foot can't do that. The shape of the animal is most important. If it looks like a live animal Why would we as judges want to pick it down.
I know some state shows are very small, but the mounts should be judged on their merit. I believe a judge should take a piece as far as it will let it.
Sometimes shows are very large, with a lot of quality mounts. Now what does the judge do? Give seconds to pieces that would be first any where else. I don't think they should.
I guess what I've been rambling about is this.
Don't judge with your ego. Judge with your knowledge. and have reference to back it up. Give the competitor the benefit of doubt. There are qualities that are difficult to achieve. These things should be rewarded. We should be careful about our comments as judges. Competitors often hang on every word in their attempts to get better. Once, while judging a National competition, we were trying to decide on ìBest of Showî . There were several very nice pieces being considered. It came down to a game head and a bird mount. A very well known judge said ì ìlook, that is a nice mount, but it is still just ìa bird on a stickî. The piece he liked was a deer on an Oak panel. I could have said ì that is just a skin on a formî But I didn"t
Don't ding for something you are not sure of yourself. Don"t expect to see Wooduck eyerings on a lesser Scaup.
Enough
Tony
There are different standards for state, regional or national/world competition. George hit the nail on the head. A state show should not be judged as hard as a national or world show. Competitiors usually have to work their way up the ladder and what better way to start then at state level. It should be expected that the higher up the ladder you go the harder the judging is going to be. Too judge a state show the way you would judge a national show in my eyes is not fair to the competitors.
to stay consistent....with a hundred or so WT heads to judge......in a few hours...LOL! That's one category I wouldn't want to judge!
Think this stuff through. You can NOT say you judge the shows differently, in all areas. Yes, a state show is more lenient in some respect then the Master div at the World show. BUT, a deer is still a deer, a wood duck is still a wood duck. Deer dont look different at the state level in Delaware then in Illinois. When you are looking at the TOP, its all the same, regardless of where you are. Like I just stated last post, Ill be willing to bring some of the bottom up for the sake of the shows continued support and success. But these are big people, all grown up. If you wanna win, you need to achieve a standard, one set by the real animal outside, not the number of entries, and the size of the state.
Also, I COMPLETELY disagree with the race analogy. I keep saying this every time we have this debate, but once again...At a race, the first guy across the line wins, regardless of whether he does so based on a record time or within a norm. Hell they can all take an extra hour, the first guy across still wins. Not so with evaluated contests. There does not have to be a first second or third if the mounts do not meet the criteria. If ten heads are entered, and none of them show nostril detail or eye focus, you got yourself ten third place mounts at best. Do you make one a first so you have a "winner"? Not a chance.
This should not be confused with the other topics, like judging with an ego problem, etc. Also theres other theories out there I dont dig. I hear things like "you dont need nictitating membranes until you go into masters division" or "you dont need to put the sex organs on life size until Masters" etc. I know my opinions arent always popular, but remember Ive been doing this for a lot of years, and I know the others and how they judge as well. Im not being a knowitall, just saying that its not as some of you think it is...
I scored an 89 on a fish last year at state level. It was the highest scoring fish that year, it also earned the Matt Thompson and lifetone awards. No first place for fish last year, everyone lived. You can bet there will be a first place this year though.
One thing for sure, you cant get rid of the human factor. Even in drillsergeant school they said that EVERYTHING will be scored and graded by THE STANDARD. Well that load of crap ends when each new class starts.
Speaking about curves, they are good for two things, women and country roads.
OK Bill, I agreed with your points right up until you had to start comparing our Illinois whitetails to Deleware whitetails. LOL
And another thing, Earl, curves are good for something else. Preventing you from failing a college exam when you see a big whopping 50% on the top of the exam. Then you find out the highest score in the whole class was 60%. Normally puts you some where in the B range. Heck, I just got a second place ribbon with that 50%.
If it doesn't deserve a first, it shouldn't get a first. If the best mount is really terrible, then what would anyone learn from just "giving" them a first? It would mean more to me of I earned it.
That's how I feel about anyway. BP