7 of our U.S. Soldiers killed in past 2 days .

Submitted by Patriot on 01/24/2004. ( jgoldson@ yahoo.com )

How can people in this great country of ours continue to support the Bush war on Iraq when things are getting worse . If you listen to Fox News Network everything is fine in Iraq , but just listen to CNN and the main networks ,including the main networks and you will see that its really bad .. Now there is a civil war brewing between the crapes and others , I see another Vietnam coming . Thw word is to get reelected Bush is pulling out in June whether things are stable or not . In other words all those lives lost will be for nothing . Just before Christmas , a fine young man that had been working in my shop learning Taxidermy lost his life in Iraq , I am having a rough time getting over this tragedy but not like his wife and 2 children . War is terrible and it should be the last resort and inthis case it was not the last resort.. alot of you guys that get on here and lambast people that don't support the Pres. and his personnal war have not lost anyone close to them in this tragic uncalled for war >>>>>>>>.

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This response submitted by wilson on 01/24/2004. ( )

I feel so sorry for people like you.I dont think you will ever understand.


This response submitted by cart on 01/24/2004. ( )

Think about9-11 and you will find some answers

What's really sad

This response submitted by Mark on 01/24/2004. ( TaxidermyReference.com )

Is that such a sacrife was given in the defense of freedom and security and the best you can come up with is a political ad against Bush.

Just my humble opinion.

want to guess

This response submitted by DaveT on 01/24/2004. ( )

Want to guess how many soilders were killed per hour on the beaches of Normandy? Any guess how many folks were killed in the US yesterday? Was is ugly but at times it is necessary. I can not believe that anyone would think that any president would let folks die just to get re-elected. I agree war should be a last resort but when the time comes, let's roll up our sleeves and get the job done


Sorry for your Loss

This response submitted by Tenbears on 01/24/2004. ( )

I know how hard it is when we loose someone close to us under any circumstance. And Offer a great thanks to your friend And his family for their sacrifice. I have said it before. Was is never a pretty thing. However, Weather an individual sees the necessity in it is irrelevant. History has shown time and time again that people like Sedam will only continue, and increase their atrocities, and aggression unless someone stops them. Only those willing to step to the pump, and put forth the sacrifices necessary to end oppression. can make the world a better place. Sedam Tortured, killed, Maimed and stole from Thousands of his own people. He threatened the well being of the entire world. It is all well and good to have a (It does not affect me personally) Attitude. But 9/11 can happen anywhere. Even If you believe Sedam had nothing to do with 9/11 you surely must realize that such an act is not beyond the realm of probability with a maniac like him. It just may be your entire town the Country morns for had he not been stopped.
I know what it is like to loose loved ones. I lost a son during Desert storm. A brother, and cousin, During Viet Nam, As well as My wife and Daughter. I served 2 very rough TODs In the Nam. And would do it all again. I would be Happy to take the place of any fighting Man in Iraq today. To die a warriors death does a man true Honor. I will think Of your friend, And Pray for Peace of mind for his loved ones.
For no Greater Love has a man for his fellow Man that he would give his life.

don't roll over for terrorists

This response submitted by Jim on 01/24/2004. ( )

Patriot you speaking the way you are is supporting the terrorists agenda. They know if they can perform their cowardly acts they can play on anti war sympathy. The trouble we're having in Iraq makes me want to reenlist and if they were to call upon able men I'll be on my way. My wife and two children are keeping out right now but the war ain't over yet. If this country would stand as one we could put enough scare into anyone not to mess with us. I'd like to know how many people who are anti war actually served their country in the military. This way of life we have is worth fighting for no matter what and if we don't stand up against evils in this world who's gonna. Just my 2 cents.

The saddest thing..

This response submitted by Steve on 01/24/2004. ( )

The saddest thing is that this poor kid died fighting in a country that had NOTHING to do with 9-11. He died so companies like halliburton,and other friends of bush & co can make billions of dollars in profit. Why cant you see this for what it really is? Are we really safer? Has terrorism been stopped or even slowed down? If anything, there seems to be more terrorism these days. The president and cheney go on TV and LIE to the country, and you people cant eat it up fast enough. Do you really believe that Iraq was moreof a threat to the U.S. than North Korea. At least N.K. has a nuclear program. They just dont have oil. Do you really think that Iraq posed an emmenient threat to the U.S.? You are just fooling yourself if you answer yes to that. More nd more info keeps coming out about htis administration and the lies and deception they are putting out there. O'Neal is an insider who blows the whistle on them, and you idiots say its just a disgruntled employee. Dont you think the Treasury Secretary has NOTHING to do with official policy? He was there and blew the whistle, but you just wont listen. What is it going to take to open your eyes to this stuff? You are either blind and deaf, or just dont care about whats right and wrong.


This response submitted by David on 01/24/2004. ( )

It is funny to hear steve talk about lies coming from this administration. What about Clinton he also lied to this country.

i think

This response submitted by wilson on 01/24/2004. ( )

Every man and woman over their know that it could be there last day alive,and they could quit if they wanted; yet they don't.
Does this not tell you they believe what they are doing is writ.


This response submitted by John C on 01/24/2004. ( )

You need some serious history lessons!

You know nothing of the USA involvment in GENECIDE (sp) curtailment.

It is far better to have tried and died, rather than sit and hide.

oh wouldnt it be nice?

This response submitted by Bill Yox on 01/24/2004. ( )

If the war could pick and choose who to kill? Just dont kill anyone I know personally! Would someone tell me which presidential candidate could guarantee this? We all know we had to go to war. At least these folks ENLISTED and knew the consequences and risk. How about our veterans who were drafted! They didnt HAVE a choice. War is really a no-win situation. In the perfect world we wouldnt have war, of course. The problems I have are blaming the president if he does, or if he doesnt. Second, not showing more respect for those who fought for us. Do any of you know how it feels to do something for someone, to sacrifice, then have that person turn around and undermine your action with criticism? Thats pretty much what is being done to our veterans. No wonder they are stinking mad, and often so resentful. I dont blame them...


This response submitted by John on 01/24/2004. ( )

I'm not blind or an idiot, I always thought the saying if you don't like it leave but in your case please do it.

No Steve....

This response submitted by Wil on 01/24/2004. ( )

what's sad is that your intense hatred for Bush has clouded your sense of judgement and reality. But then again, I never met or knew a Lib with either.

Patriot, I for one will not insult you

This response submitted by Cecil Baird ( ) on 01/24/2004. ( jjbaird@ligtel.com )

Very sorry to hear about your friend, and you have every right to express your views on the war whether you agree with it or not. Your friend just died to give you that right. Don't let anyone take it away from you.

When it comes down to it, people can pump themselves up with all the so called patriotism they want, but most on here have no idea what it's like to loose a friend, loved up etc. in a war. I have a nephew heading there in a week and I WILL hold Mr. Bush responsible.

We have a president that couldn't even fulfill his guard duty obligations (joined to avoid going to Vietnam), and now he's compensating for that by sending young men and women into harms way, in a war, that is questionable in a country that had nothing to do with 9/11.

You have my email if you want to talk about it. unfortunately you won't get any empathy here. Just insults.

Ask a Marine

This response submitted by Paul I on 01/24/2004. ( paulblastoatyahoo.com )

The one big difference now is these brave troops want to help.With stewart air base a couple miles away from me I get to talk to alot of the troops and they want to help and serve.A Marine capt last week told me he wanted to go and with the coming troop rotation things will happen.I just hope when this is all over we do not forget to take care of these people like we have done in the past.I also like listening to the nam vets that come in and now after all these years they can put on their uniform and get the respect not shown before.

Cecil I have to tell ya ...

This response submitted by b bishop on 01/24/2004. ( )

your comments are scary . I can just picture you as the one throwing that guarnade into that tent at the beggining of the war . No sypathy here ! your a real boob ! what little respect I had left for you just went out the window .


This response submitted by TW on 01/25/2004. ( )

You are a wise man my friend....I wonder if liberals have ever been on the receiving end of "sign language".....Their vision must be that of looking down through two straws......I for one sure wouldn't want the "Patriot" (?) who started this column, nor whoever this "Cecil Baird" is, on my side in a combat sorty. I have no doubt in my mind that they would be definatly be shot in the a$$ charging!....My sympathy goes out to all the families who have lost loved ones and friends in this war and all others. And my thanks to the ones that are serving now, who are the REAL patriots. God Bless America!

Like I said, other then Ten Bears

This response submitted by Cecil Baird ( ) on 01/25/2004. ( )

the rest of the posts on here are an insult and callous to Patriot. What can I say? I rest my case.

Well, Well

This response submitted by Tenbears on 01/25/2004. ( )

Cecil; I usually enjoy exchanges with you. And most of the time I can see both sides of your posts. and accept both opinions.
I have no Issue with your sentiments, However I an appalled that you stated patriot would find no empathy. I read no Insults. Until Steve threw in his 2 cents. That is when the Slanderous remarks Began. I believe the counters were more Intended To him, Rather that patriot.

Steve, And all Others. You say that Iraq Had nothing to do with 9/11 as If there were irrefutable proof of that. Although there is no absolute proof that they did. There is less proof that they did not. so to defend their innocents in the act is more unfounded than to suspect they did. I myself never stated they did or did not. Just used it as a reference of what has happened. and could have happened if Sedam were left to his own devices.
I do not condemn those that believe war as a whole is wrong. Nor does our government. That is why they have provisions for conscience objectors. But I do have a problem with those that condemn others for doing what they think is right. Or are you so vein as to think your perception of right, and wrong. Is the only correct one. The same people who call This Bush's war, would condemn him for not having done something. Had Sedam got his hands on a nuclear device, and set it off in the U.S.
Many of the well intentioned anti war advocates do not realize what they are doing.
As a Viet Nam Vet I recall the feelings of abandonment, rejection, and disrespect. Upon returning home to the country I felt I was ultimately defending, To discover that I was to be hated for years to come for simply trying to be a good American. And As a human being. I get on my knees and beg you all. PLEASE do not do that to this generation of patriots. Suffer your beliefs in silence.
The Veterans administration. Was worried what the gulf war would do to the Nam Vets that suffered PTSS. they felt it would result in a flood of the VA facilities. The support given the vets of the gulf war Has rallied the Nam vet. It has given many of them a sense of honor. that they have been deprived of for 30 years.
Have your opinions. Express them in intellectual gatherings. But please do not try make them a blood smear on the flag. for the purpose of showing discontent against someone you have other beefs with.

Don't besmirch the title of what a Patriot really is

This response submitted by George on 01/25/2004. ( georoof@aol.com )

Do you know how many soldiers REALLY died in the last two days? I'll bet my huge retirement from the military you don't have a CLUE. On a "normal" day, nearly 3 American soldiers die EVERY DAY. But what you phonies don't care about is that those "normal days" include GI's who get killed in training accidents, automobile accidents, receational accidents, or just died because life left them. But THOSE DON'T COUNT to people like you, do they. On every "normal" day for the last 5 years, we've lost 800 WWII veterans EVERY DAY. Did you ever thank a single one of them before they passed? They were sent off to "Roosevelt's War" to fight Hitler and Mussolini who'd never done anything to US. They fought Hirohita when all he'd done was kill a few hundred soldiers, sailors, airmen, and civilians on a puddle of land in the middle of the Pacific that really didn't count for much at that time. You can be just like another scum bucket here and not bother to answer this question (as I suspect you will), but would you mind telling me, just what cause would you ever deem necessary for real American Patriots to die for so that your sorry,worthless hide can drape yourself in our flag and point fingers?


This response submitted by Tenbear on 01/25/2004. ( )

Sorry you beat me to the submit button.

Cecil my post was no insult to anyone

This response submitted by Paul I on 01/25/2004. ( paulblastoatyahoo.com )

You stated my post was insult.How did you come up with that? Along with listening to some of the smarter people on here I do take the time to listen to others elswere.I suggest you would do the same.Go talk to your nephew and find out why he wants to go.And take the time out to listen to vets who have been in action and have seen real war and ask them what they think.


This response submitted by suspicious on 01/25/2004. ( )

tell us the name of this guy who worked in your shop that got killed so we can verify it and I bet some of us here will help out his wife and those two kids. I'm sorry, but when ever I here a dem. speaking red flags just go up everywhere. Irag historicaly will be considered one of the all time greatest military actions of all time. Consider this, Iwo Jima, and island of only a few square miles with a few thousand defenders; 6000 American deaths to take that tiny island. Irag, a country the size of california with 25 million people. less than 600 deaths. Geez, according to CNN we lost world war two.

tenbears, George and many others

This response submitted by Bill Yox on 01/25/2004. ( )

Thank you for standing for us in wartime, and tenbears, thank you for what your family's sacrifice. Thanks for supporting us in war, even boobs like cecil.

Keep These Quotes In Mind While You're At It Too...

This response submitted by Rebublican on 01/25/2004. ( )

Yes, this is one of those FWD'd emails... I don't doubt any of it though!

"Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program."
- President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998

"Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face."
- Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998

"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983."
- Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998

"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs."
- Letter to President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and others Oct. 9, 1998

"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
- Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998

"Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies."
- Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999

"There is no doubt that ... Saddam Hussein has invigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies."
- Letter to President Bush, Signed by Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL,) and others, December 5, 2001

"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandated of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them."
- Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002

"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."
- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power."
- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002

"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are
confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and
biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..."
- Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002

"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force-- if necessary-- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security."
- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002

"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years ... We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002

"He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do" Rep.
- Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weap ons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members ..
It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will
continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
- Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002

"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002

"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal,
murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a
particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to
miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real ..."
- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003


Let me tell you what a patriot is

This response submitted by Brian on 01/25/2004. ( )

My Father inlaw served in Viet Namn. as a Corpman with a marine company. 10 months in to his first tour he was captured. I do not know what horrors he must have suffered. As he does not talk about it. He spent 2 years 4 months and 17 days in that hell. Only an accidental discovery of the compound freed him. Three quarters starved, and with injuries that had never been treated. He could have gotten out of the service and put his life back togather. But he did not. He remained in the Navy. and went on to become a seal. and ultimatly did a second tour. Where he was shot down In a helicoptor. his back was broken. and both knees shattered. his bowel was ruptured, and has had to have a resection. Only then did he get out. Not because he wanted to. but because they had no more need for the broken up body he had. I know this not because he has told me. But because I am married to his daughter. and have shared the sorrows she suffered as a little girl when her mother sobbed endlessly. when Her dad was MIA. Both my wife and father in law have reason to be bitter. But neither is! he would never think to slander this country or it leaders in any way. agree or not. And My wife feels the same way. It is hard to even make the man mad. God knows I have given him reason enough to. still he understands. People say foolish things here, and around the world. Never have I herd him insult them for doing it. He looks for the good in everything. and would be a friend to anyone. even those that have done him wrong in the past. he puts it behind him, and goes on. I have always figuerd that his experiences have made him feel life is to short to eat yourself up with anger, and hateread. Him and others like him are what have made tis country what it is. Not the guys who sit by and complain.

Thank you, Brian

This response submitted by George on 01/25/2004. ( )

Thanks for sharing what a true Patriot really is. Tell your father-in-law that countless millions of us believe just like he does and we cherish the knowlege of his personal sacrifices. We all owe him a debt of gratitude.

Thanks Brian

This response submitted by Paul I on 01/25/2004. ( paulblastoatyahoo.com )

Thanks for sharing that as it sounds like the same type of info that I hear from alot of the vets who share their story.Most of the woodstock generation are older and their info is boring.I guess Cecil wont answer my question so I will have to assume that he was only taught to talk and not listen.

The problem with this post

This response submitted by DaveT on 01/25/2004. ( )

It starts out with a name - patriot, then he blasts the President and all the people who support the war (which is over 50% since it started). Sounds a little conflicting to me. I guess I better go back and look up what patriot means?

Everyone should read the above post with the "quotes" from flip-flopping democrats. I bet there are small tent campfires across Afganistan and Iraq with a bunch of hooded thugs praying that a democrat get eleceted, anyone but President Bush as they know he means business. I respect Mr. Kerry for his service and you will never hear me down play that like some do President Bush's. I do not like his tilted FAR left stance on almost all issues



This response submitted by Steve Steinbring on 01/25/2004. ( )

Cecil, being in the reserves or guard does not exempt you from going to war!

What a safe place to hide, right? Why don't you ask the returning reservists and guardmen returning from country how safe it was because they are members of the GUARD or RESERVES? If they wanted it really safe they should have run to Canada like many did during Viet Nam, or not enlisted.

Listen or read the news so you get informed. In todays military which includes the time of George W. Bush a major portion of the total force is madeup of reserve and guard units. In the Air Force for example a major portion of the airlift and fighter capabilities are comprised of reserve/guard units. Guess where they are flying, and it isn't over the American heartland. When and if you get orders to mobilize thats when you go, its not a matter of choice. You are then deployed as an active duty unit. The only difference in todays TOTAL FORCE is that the reservist or guardman works at a desk downtown not on base during normal times.

There is a war going on and unfortunately people die. In perspective we kill between 55-60,000 people uselessly on our highways each year. Over 100,000 die from mistakes by doctors on operating tables annually. Each serviceman's life is extremely precious and thats why commanders will risk additional lives to rescue comrades in arms. Often ending up sacrificing many additonal lives to save one. The cost of freedom is expensive. Cherish what you have often paid for by the blood and suffering of your fellow countrymen.

Major Steven R. Steinbring
USAFR Retired

One other thing

This response submitted by Steve Steinbring on 01/25/2004. ( )

You know its hard sometimes to forget certain things.

For me it was the first and only time in my life I've been "spit on". I was in uniform and got spit in the street by one of the Viet Nam anti-war folks. An individual that professed to be concerned about the dignity of all individuals and respect for all human life. Showing all the respect that this individual could possibly muster for another human being, this woman spit on me. Hyprocisy at its best! We were not allowed to react, I just walked away.

Sometimes I wonder about many of the anti-war criers, not willing to standup and be counted. Yet do little or nothing the help solve anything, kind of like the anti hunters. Mostly gripping with little or no solutions to anything.

I have friends deployed now.

This response submitted by JOhn C on 01/25/2004. ( )

Don't you love it when someone how has never given anything to Our Country whines because thier friends is going over.

I have a friend, I was in D.S. with, returned to Germany with (You want your bubble busted go from the Gulf War to Germany) he and I even were at Ft. Riley togather. He went to the Reserves here in my home town, I dated his sister a bit, BOTH JUST RETURNED BACK TO IRAQ, they came back for some R&R, now they are back over there.

The soldier prayers for Peace harder than civilian!

The longer the war goes on the more a soldier prays. We do the job before us, sometimes we question it but we do or did the job none the less.

Do not disrespect the Soilder the Airmen The Marines, The Navy or even the DoD Civilians that do a job for OUR COUNTRY, they go and put thier life on the line 24-7.

Many a service person has sacrified thier Life, Liberty and and Freedom for the right for you to say the President is wrong.
They have sacrificed the families and fortunes.

Those who have never been around a service personells family dont and will not understand, not even the Policemans family can understand.

You dont know when the next letter will come and letter mean a LOT!
You dont know when the next meal will be there.
You dont know when the next time you will get to sleep.
You can't call home two or three times a day, you may not get that chance even in a month.

They Spouses of deployed Service personell live in constant worry, they have to be stronger than any field of employment anywhere.

Do I worry about my friends? Yes! Have I lost friends in war yes!
It will probley happen again, I pray it dont.

We dont like the war any better than any Liberal! But we will stand by our friends, right or wrong its not really thier choice. But by God they are my friends!

Steve and Patriot need to serve sometime doing wrok for OUr country. Not just bitching and crying.

all I wanna know is...

This response submitted by Bill Yox on 01/25/2004. ( )

As usual, WHERE THE HELL IS CECIL NOW? CECIL! Cecil would you care to spin...err, answer these last few posts? Hes too busy making up new stupid Bush posts, you know, the ones he denies posting!


This response submitted by Bill Yox on 01/25/2004. ( )

Your words ring clear, see how the cowardly antiBush crowd has stayed very quiet? Your father in law is a MAN, a soldier, a patriot, and a hero. Thank him please, there are still decent people who are thankful for his and the family's sacrifice.

Its a military thing

This response submitted by Jerry Rainey on 01/25/2004. ( jerry@aqua-cycle.com )

You wouldn't understand. I've been learning on this site for over a year now and I never respond to people's questions or opinions but I will respond to this one because I'm knowledgeable and a Veteran of War like others on this site. I'm a Desert Storm Veteran with 16 years of service to my Country. To Patriot, if your friend was a true military person and he had the choice to do it all again, I'll bet he would. Toby Kieth said it best in one of his songs, "I don't want to die for you, but if dyings asked of me, I'll bear that cross with honor, CAUSE FREEDOM DON'T COME FREE, I'm an American Soldier"
Your right, war is terrible. Over 500 American Soldiers have lost thier lives since March. As bad as that is, we lost thousands when the world trade towers fell to some radical muslim pukes just like Saddam. Should my unit get called to go to war, I will pack my things, kiss my wife and children bye and be gone tomorrow if told to. Why would I do this? I don't have a clue. It's in my blood.

Thanks to Tenbears, Jim, JOhnC, George, Major Steinbring, and all other Veterans on this Net.

SSG Jerry Rainey

Just cant stay quiet on this one

This response submitted by Alan Childs on 01/25/2004. ( )

John C,
You said it extremely well, your right on the money. However I can not & will not stand silent on this topic. The blood sweat, & tears of The America Warrior is what created this great nation.

Patriot (or as you call yourself),
I truly believe that President Bush is doing a fine job & I completely support him. I also dont believe everything that the media says, they just dont understand (they are only concerned w/ ratings), & because of that they dont always get the facts straight. Yes, war is terrible, but sometimes very neccesary. The truth is "Freedom isnt Free". I am sorry that you lost some one close to you & I am sorry that you will lose others that are close to you. Its a fact of life. All things that live will eventually die. I just retired from the Army in November of last year. I served 20 + years in defence of my Nation & Flag(Im not bragging, this is not about me, its about my buddies,the ones that faught before us, the ones fighting now & the ones that will fight in the future, both living, dead & unborn). In the last 20 years we have deployed & sacrificed our young men & women to places like Grenada, Panama, Korea, Haiti, Central America, the Gulf, the Mog (Samalia), & the Balkans. Even more recently the Phillipines, Afganistan, Liberia, & Iraq. Wow, weve been to all those places? The answer is Yes, weve even been to places that can not & will not ever be mentioned. Someone once said no one appreciates the military untill the enemy is knocking at the gates. Well, They are knocking. Daaahh. I have lost many people close to me also & they wont be the last. But, THEY DIDNT DIE FOR NOTHING! THEY DIED FOR OUR FREEDOM, THEIRS, THEIR FAMILIES, MINE, YOURS, THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, & MANY OTHERS THAT DONT EVEN KNOW WHAT FREEDOM IS YET!
Im not bashing you, Im saying Wake the !@#* Up! If you want to heal, I reccomend that you support our President, no matter who it is, support the American Military. Personally go out of your way to thank the Soldiers, Marines, Sailors, Airmen, & Veterans. Visit the vets in the VA Hospitals & "Old Soldiers Homes". Some of them have sacrificed far more than you can even imagine. These are the true Patriots.

Now for Steve,
The saddest thing is that the soldiers are dieing so you can snivel, bitch, & moan. WAKE UP! They are not just fighting because of 9-11. They are fighting for our way of life, FREEDOM & THE AMERICAN PEOPLE. You are the one that needs to take off the blinders & open up your eyes & ears. Why cant YOU see this as it really is? Yes, we are safer because brave men & women are willing to give their life, if neccesary in the defence of Freedom. For us to remain safe we must send a message to those, that would do us harm. That we will do every thing neccesary to fight this "Global War on Terror" & Win at any cost. Yes, we have slowed the bastards down but, we cant slack up, this is an ongoing thing that will take time till we have Victory. How do you know that they are lying? What do you know about Iraq or North Korea for that matter or Mr. Oneal & the Treasury Dept? Answer this question - Who is the fool now? Whats really sad is that you probably believe your right.

Vote for the one you want, but when it is said & done give the one elected your support. Not blind support- Make your voice heard. Oh, you already have.

B Bishop,
Your Bull!@#* doesnt even deserve a response.

In closing Id like to say, Im glad there is still people like Wilson, Cart, Dave T, Ten bears, Jim, David, Bill Yox, John, Paul I, TW, Republican, Brian, & Major Steinbring - You deserve the title "Patriot". I know I can always count on George Roof & John C of standing up to be counted.

Alan Childs
" though I be the lone surviver"

Just like Arlington Cemetery

This response submitted by George on 01/25/2004. ( )

Did anyone else notice when the truth came out, the cowards fled and started a fire someplace else? I never claimed to be much, but damned if I'm not proud to have my name included with those of you who've stood up on this one. God bless us, every one.

Amen, Brother

This response submitted by Alan Childs on 01/25/2004. ( )

Amen to that.


No Coward Here

This response submitted by Steve on 01/25/2004. ( )

To all of you "red blooded god bless america, im better than you crowd"..I have a life and I cant be on this site responding to your flapping mouths all day. Now that I am back, I will respond. I have not tucked my tail between my legs and sulked away because "you showed me". First of all. I have the utmost respect for out men and women in the military. I have a few close friends who were in the first gulf war, and I am thankful for their and the rest of the militrays service to keep our country safe and free. When NYC and DC were attacked, we did our research and made a DIRECT link to Bin Laden and the Taliban. We went into Afghanistan and did what we had to do. I have no problems with our troops beingin Afghanistan. I feel very lucky to live in this country and understand what has to be done to keep our borders safe. The problem I have now is that Iraq was never proven to be linked to bin laden, the taliban or 911. You cant just say...well..what if they got weapons? If they actually were able to get weapons, they would attack us. How can you make this leap? Do you have a friggin crystal ball? Did you call the psychic friends network? what if..what if..You cannot invade a country and destabilize a large region of the world on "what if". Hussein has been a piss ant in that region for years. We used to be his good buddy. Where do you think he got all of those goodies from? Have you seen the photo of don rumsfield shaking huisseins hand back in the 1980's? He was sent there by ronald reagan. More and more info keeps coming out that the oil fields of iraq were mapped out by bush's administration within the first month that they were in office. Paul O'Neil's book mentions all of this stuff. Do you actually believe he was not let into any meetings ? Do you really believe he had no access to any kind of info? If anyone would have had access to this info, he would. Why wont cheney release the details of his energy commision report? He is in court and fighting the release tooth and nail. What can be so bad or sensitive in that report that the american people cannot see? Why is cheney's former compnay halliburton ( he was pres of halliburton and steped down to run for VP) being awarded multi billion dollar no-bid contracts when they are under investigation for kickbacks and overcharging the govt by over 60 million dollars? Do you not see a conflict of interest? There are tons of other problems and issues withtis administration , I could go on all day. Some of you morons tell me " if ya dont like it..then leave it". Are you some kind of communist? A facist perhaps? SO, when the british controled the U.S., the colonists should have just moved to another country? Do you always run away from your problems? If you had even an ounce of inellegence, you would know that is not at all what this country is about. I have the right to challengs what I dont like. When I see my country being hijacked by a war-mongering, ,religious right wing conservative, who has no concern about the environment, education, the elderly or any thing else, except the rich and his big business friends, I cant just stand by and go along with what is going on. Thats why I post so much political stuff on this site, because I love my country. That is what a patriot really is. Not some sheep who cant see whats going on and follows blindly. And I am not some kind of sushi eating waiflike liberal either. I am a registered republican. I have been one since I became eligible to vote over 20 years ago. I am a gun owner and a hunter. I am one of you. You couldnt pick me out of a crowd of rednecks if you tried. I just dont like what I see going on. I dont believe everything that I see on TV either , but after tons and tons of this stuff keeps coming to light, and I keep reading the reports and the kinds of legislation that keeps getting passed, I just cant stand there and do nothing about it. I know there are more of you out there who are just like me. Maybe you dont want to speak up now, but I would like to believe you will do the right thing in november and get this wacko out of office.

Your Hopeless

This response submitted by Paul I on 01/25/2004. ( paulblastoatyahoo.com )

Steve this thread was about the people who gave their lives not about your opinions on why we did it.If you and some others would slow down and read what some of these guys have done you would understand why they act the way they do.Also its great that your complaining about American companys making lots of money and not the Russians.

You're still a coward

This response submitted by George on 01/25/2004. ( )

I'm just glad that the peace you enjoy is not a product of any commitment on your part. You did "research". The only trouble with research is that it's Monday morning quarterbacking. How do you explain how you can possibly support the men and women in uniform when they, to a person almost, love the man who now stands as their Commander in Chief? Why do you insult THEIR beliefs? All you can EVER do is recite what someone else tells you. You haven't any gumption of your own, do you? Theodore Roosevelt had you sized up quite a long time ago. Here's one your liberal sources likely won't have included.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and the sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, and comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming, but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that HIS PLACE SHALL NEVER BE WITH THOSE COLD TIMID SOULS WHO KNOW NEITHER VICTORY NOR DEFEAT."

So, you see, even when you're here, you still don't count for anything. How could you? You've only researched it.


This response submitted by Steve on 01/25/2004. ( )

Paul...I started out my reply with my respect and understanding of our military. It is horrible that people have to die in wars and such, but that is the nature of wafare. Anyone who spit on a Viet Nam vet is a an a-hole. It is not the troops who make the decisions. They are told to go and fight, and thats what they do. My grandfather was in WW2, and my father was drafted for Viet Nam but was unable to go because of a medical condition. There were no wars going on when I was of age to serve in the military. What I was saying is that this war is not just. We cannot invade a country because they might , at sometime in the future get some weapons, and then they might do something with them, or maybe not. That is not how we do things. That is not how our system works. We can be vigilent, we can gather intellegence,but we cant go before the world and lie about a threat that does not exist. Ten Bears is a great man for serving his country, and he has my admiration, but what was his war for? What did we gain from Viet Nam? What we lost was far greater than any gain that we might have won. Does anyone really care about the country of Iraq? I cant stand all this fake humanitarian mission garbage. We should fight when it really counts, like in WW2 and in Afghanistan, but this full time war is a terrible policy. Lets save our military for when we really need them.

Sure george

This response submitted by Steve on 01/26/2004. ( )

George...are you serious? If so, you really dont understand how things work. You fault me for researching things? Im guessing you pull your info out of your ass then? Or are you using a Ouija board perhaps? Either way, how can you make an educated decision without any kind of imput? Have you ever read a newspaper? Watched a news program? read a government report? I am not just repeating what I am told. I have a mind and a brain and I can read information and process what I have just read and make a decision all by myself. I dont just blindly repeat things that I am told, unlike some people around here. I am full of "gumption". Do you think I would be replying to you if I was a so called sheep? As for the the peace I enjoy is not a product of any commitment on my own part.So, you believe that everyone who hasnt served in the military is not entitled to the peace and way of life we have in this country?...how do you think those soldiers get paid? Where do you think the money comes from to buy the weapons and make the military run? Im a tax payer george, and my money goes to pay for the peace I enjoy.Should we run every civilian out of the country perhaps? Its really amazing what a warped sense of reality you have when it comes to freedom and this country. ....One thing I would like to say however, you are a very good taxidermist and I do admire your ability in this field. Politics however is another story :-)

Try to understand

This response submitted by Paul I on 01/26/2004. ( paulblastoatyahoo.com )

Steve these brave men do not need to hear that it was a waste of their time and lives because of what we did.Its done now and we are cleaning up over there.Some of these guys most likley know of things you will never know about or hear about.All Im saying when you say its a waste of time it affects alot of people.I know two nam vets who carry cards showing that they are disabled and they still cant function as normal.So while are troops are dying we do not need to do that to anymore vets.

My goodness this thread has become quite the lynch mob

This response submitted by Cecil Baird ( ) on 01/26/2004. ( )

However, lets get something straight here.

Your arguments against me are categorically incorrect.

First of all, I did not have the luxury to be on this site most of the day to defend myself. Therefore Bill's attempt at chastising me for not coming back has no validity.

Secondly I support our troops 110 %, and in fact, that is why I am so appalled at our CIC. And I have been in the military too. I am offended that our CIC has sent men to die in a country that had nothing to do with 9/11, and had only diverted attention from our main goal of going after AlQueda. And he wants to pull the plug in June as not to hurt his chances to be elected, but I believe that will be a disaster, and our troops will have died in vain. Presently our troops do not have all the equipment they need to be totally safe due to poor post war planning, and the National Guard that is being deployed is even worse off than the regular forces. My nephew that is being deployed in 101st in a few days into the most dangerous area of Iraq tells me he felt his training for this mission was rushed and inadeqate. He won't even be doing what he was trained for initially. That's par for the course with Iraq. No plan after the initial battles although our troop preformed brilliantly. Now our troops have targets on their backs.

3.) Mr. Steinbring, I don't know how old you are, but you must not have grown up during the Vietnam era. During Vietnam it was common that folks joined the National Guard to keep from being deployed in Vietnam. It was most common with the well to do and those who had political connections even when there weren't any openings. Of course some went to Vietnam anyway, but that was the exception to the rule. One reason the Guard typically was not deployed is their equipment was typically hand me downs and outdated. Bush's unit still had the F-104's, but the F-4's are the ones actually used in Vietnam (a plane that I am familar with from top to bottom having been a weapons specialist with F-4's).

Of course the National Guard is being deployed now on a regular basis, but this a different time and place than Vietnam. Sadly they are still dealing with the hand me downs but this time they are being deployed.

4.) I respect anyone that has served regardless of where and when, but just can't respect a man that joined the guard to keep from going to Vietnam, received special treatment and privledges, and couldn't even fulfill his duty obligation on a timely basis even then. This man only went to basic training for 5 weeks and even though he only scored a 25 on his flight test was allowed to get his wings. As someone that didn't get any slack on my six year duty I find that offensive. I even had to serve duty once on Christmas. We had a guy in our guard unit in the 80's that actually bragged about joining the guard during the Vietnam era to keep from going to Vietnam. He was a sleezeball and not very well liked.

Furthermore, you guys can be admired for you patrotism but you are defending the wrong man. He's not one of us. He's a richey boy that pretended to be in the military and had no intention of making the ultimate sacrifice. However he has no qualms of sending others to make the ultimate sacrifice. When we lost the highest amount of troops one day his comment was "We had a bad day." If he is so pro troops why did he cut Veteran's benefits and wanted to slash combat pay? If you dont' believe me I can show you where it is documented.

If you're assuming every veteran accepts Mr. Bush with open arms think again. I know lots that distain him. In fact my dad who was a Green Beret who did everything from rescuing downed pilots in Vietnam, to excursion into North Vietnam to rescue POW's, helicopter gunship pilot, gunboat duty, you name it, and received the bronze star among other awards thinks he's just a rich punk and has no respect for our illustrious president. I guess that where I get it from.

So bash me if you want, but I will still keep coming as I don't have anything to apologize for. Bill Yox calls it Bush Slander. I call it my 1st ammendment rights of free speech.

Steve you could have served your Country in the service!

This response submitted by JOhn C on 01/26/2004. ( border is open both ways, shut up or leave! )

I love hearing crap like you are spewing.

There was a cold war going on and instead of hiding because of lack of the DRAFT you could have been a man and Joined! Even the Coast Gaurd (Man those people are nuts and adrinilin junkies)

Nowar going on so you could not join, WIMPED OUT! Plain and simple.

Here is the bottom line, you dont like the way our country is being ran, either shut up or move out. The border is open both fricken ways.

Jerry my hats off to you. Alan too.

I dont know of anyone that has served in our

Cecil, our National Gaurd units in Arkansas have been deployed to Korea in the Conflict, and yes to Vietnam, Granada and Panama. So what was your MOS?

Surely not Combat arms?

19K30C M1A1 Abrahms tank, chemical, small arms repair
"Do more manuver damage in 10 minutes than a battalion of grunts can repair in a month!"

So Answer the question

This response submitted by Paul I on 01/26/2004. ( paulblastoatyahoo.com )

Instead of long winded tales please stop acting like a elected official and answer my question you jumped over.Ps after much of this was started you were still on leaving more posts.Billi Bob Joe

Cecil your wrong!

This response submitted by Steve Steinbring on 01/26/2004. ( )

First of all I seriously doubt that anyone shortcut OTS one day being a Officer candidate going to the Guard, Reserves, or active duty. It just doesn't happen! Also I am old enough to know something about Viet Nam, I'll be 57 next month. In flight training I saw many pilot trainees washout, and believe me its impersonal, in fact cold. No one washes out for not being smart enough, the pre-screening takes care of that. But! Having the eye-hand coordination and being able to stand the pressure of a year of sometimes 14-15 hour days is another story. Over 50% of my flight class washed out! They just don't hand out wings because your dad is someone special. People get killed flying the country's aircraft and they want competitant pilots in their cockpits, not political appointees. Where did you get the information of a score of 25 and what was that score for, flying? Frankly you don't know what your talking about, and your poorly informed. Don't believe everything you hear, all the second hand information and hear say.

As far as anyone being deployed from either the active duty or the reserve side of the house. The selection is done by computer or by the personnel offices to fill the needs of the military. It has nothing to do with who you are. If it did people like John McCain would not have gone either. Another thing, the gate guard, the cook, the mechanic stateside are just as important to the total system as those deployed. It makes them no less a soldier, airman, or seaman, they are there to serve the needs of the DOD and the country Cecil, since you were in the military you of all people should know that when you get orders to deploy you go, if not you serve where you are assigned.

The Air Force flew old equipment in the active duty side of the house Viet Nam like the F-100, A-26 (WWII), C-47 (WWII), EC-121, and the list goes on. So your point of the F-104 being worn out is crap. It was an interceptor and wrong for air to ground and the Viet Nam mission. That is what the Texas Guard was flying and I assure you that the Bush family had nothing to do with the unit aircraft assignments. By the way units are constantly changing aircraft and mission assignments, so a pilot may fly several types of aircraft in his career being in the same unit, switching from fighters to transport or vise versa.

Cecil you are certainly entitled to your opinions, and thats fine. I just find it repulsive to personally attack an individual who is willing to serve their country in any status. However, thats what politics has turned into today. I would think that debating the real issues the country is facing is far more important than slandering someones character.

Steve, what a cop out, "There were no wars."

This response submitted by George on 01/26/2004. ( )

Give me a freakin break. A helluva lot of good men have died in the service to their country during your self imposed hiatus from reality. As John C said, may you should spend more time in your vaunted "reference books". In the meantime, however, don't insult me with your liberal bullsh*t. I went in service in 1964 and remained there until 1993. I'd just about bet that covered most of your tender life with "no wars going on" and I met a helluva lot of airplanes in that time with flag draped aluminum transport cases on them. Your analogy is despicable. You've been drinking too much from Cecil's trough. Stay out of adult discussions you have no idea about.

And besides

This response submitted by George on 01/26/2004. ( )

When did it ever imply that service to one's country should only be required in time of war? The draft ended long ago. Did you even bother to register when you turned 18 as still required by federal law?

Steve, when you slander someone you make things up

This response submitted by Cecil Baird ( ) on 01/26/2004. ( )

I have never made anything up about the president. Whatever I say is on record and I can refer you to the sources. I usually don't do that on here as George has hissy fit when I copy and paste. But I can do that.

Furthermore, I can give you a link where the most FAVORABLE report was done on Bush's miltary record. Copies of original military records are included. Even this most favorable viewpoint does not make him look very good.There are some really suspicious gaps too, which is pretty irregular if you know anything about the military record keeping. He may not have techically gone AWOL as that has to be declared formally, but he obviously did get special treatment and went in on the premise to avoid combat duty.

Read my post again. I did not say the NG never went to Vietnam. I say most did not. As far as the older planes being used in Vietnam, you may be right on that. But if they were, it was very early in the campaign.

John C. I was SGT. and weapons specialist (two stripes right out of basic training) with the F-4's and started loading weapons systems on the F-16's just before my enlistment was up. We loaded 20 mm guns, GBU's, Aim-9's etc etc. I would have been a staff SGT. if I would have stayed in. I liked it but it was cutting into my taxidermy time.

My unit was the 122nd CAMS out of FT. Wayne, Indiana, and we were voted the most outstanding NG unit in the US one year and even got a medal for it. We regulary beat the regular Air Force in weapons's loading contests (Lodeos) as a lot of our members were Vietnam Vets that had a lot of experience with the F-4's.

My dad tells me the F-4's were a God send when he was in the remote camps of Vietnam. They would drop bombs and napalm so close they had to hold on to something to keep from being knocked down. He has lots of good stories. He also has lots of stories of government ineptness and a lack of regard for the troops. He told me more than once they were down to a few rounds in the remote camps as congress has not allocated the money for more ammunition. He tells me alot about how companies profitted off the war. One story was quite poinent. It was when he was in charge of sending A team after A team across the DMZ as the pentagon wanted to know what was going on. It was obvious what was going on as there were so my NVA's at one point they were so brazen they made no attempt to hide. (I guess we werent allowed to bomb them) But the pentagon still wanted to sent he Teams in and whenever we went back by chopper to pick them up at a rendevous point these men were history. It was suicide. It was a total waste but yet the pentagon insisted on doing it over and over.

So I have a certain skepticim when it comes to politicans that sit in luxury that did not do their duty themselves but have no qualms about sending troops on their own personal vendettas. It's my right to voice decension and no one will take it away.

"Dissent is the highest form of patriotism" - Thomas Jefferson

Paul, please repeat your question

This response submitted by Cecil Baird ( ) on 01/26/2004. ( )

"So Answer the question
This response submitted by Paul I on 01/26/2004. ( paulblastoatyahoo.com )
Instead of long winded tales please stop acting like a elected official and answer my question you jumped over.Ps after much of this was started you were still on leaving more posts.Billi Bob Joe"

There's a lot to read in this post and frankly I have no intention of reading it all.

So what, I titled one of my posts Billi Bob Joe to make a point. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to notice which posts are nine as the IP number doesn't change much do to my DSL line.

I'm waiting for you question. Please don't make it long winded.

Jeez Steve

This response submitted by John on 01/26/2004. ( )

Once again the name calling, I'm not a moron, just someone that has a well founded reason for diagreeing with you and can back up what is being said with facts. If we would happen to be in the same room (all of us) would you still resort to name calling? I think not, please use a little restaint here as well. Thanks for a spirted debate (disagreement). John

Military service

This response submitted by Steve on 01/26/2004. ( )

John & George...What is the deal with you and this" if you never served inthe military,then you are a coward" stuff? The majorityof people in this country have never served. Why arent you jumping up and down on everyone else? I went down to the post office and registered the day I turned 18. I did not however go to my local recruiting office and sign up for the military. Military service is not a requirement in this country. Where the heck do you get off chastizing me for not going into the military? There was no reason for me to join.The military was actually downsizing at the time. I went to college instead and paid for my own education. If I was called up I would have gladly gone, but that is not the case. I didnt want a military career, and as an american citizen that is my choice to make. If you wanted to join ,then thats your choice to make. I have friends who went into the military, and that was their choice. Why are you so mad that I and the rest of the country are allowed to make a choice based on what we want to do? The more I read what you type, the more I really believe you are facists. Im not joking about that one, your posts really read that way.Well..Ill read your angry responses and reply later. ;-)

Cecil, give me the sources of your proof!

This response submitted by Steve Steinbring on 01/26/2004. ( )

Validate your statements then perhaps we all be enlightened, until then its IMHO nothing but hear say!

Cecil in flight school a score of 25 on a checkride evaluation would have not gotten you off the runway. Despite what you may think here are some facts for you. The F-104 known as the Starfighter was a Mach 2.3 interceptor. The F-104 was a very hot machine with exceptional performance capabilities within its design characteristics. It was not an aircraft for a marginal pilot and would be a poor place to try to hide if you had poor abilities. In fact there is a good chance you could get killed in the F-104 if you didn't have your stuff together. Now add in the mix of air refueling, formation flying, night formation, single pilot instrument approaches, and aerial combat maneuvers it gets even more dangerous. Flying a high performance fighter is not a cup of tea, but for a competant pilot life expectancy is good. I find it hard to believe that the Bush family would hide its son in a squardron flying a high performance aircraft, especially if he was a poor pilot. Also the squadron flight standardization would have quickly eliminated him from flight status if he was incompetant, priviledged or not.


This response submitted by Tenbear on 01/26/2004. ( )

You try to make it sound as though President Bush, just woke up one morning and said "let's invade Iraq." We will use 9/11 as a reason. Have you forgotten? That part of the accord after we drove him out of Kuwait was that he did not built his arsenal. This was a decision made by the UN. Have you forgotten? That he on numerous occasions refused entry by the inspectors. He stalled with Roderick giving himself time to move his oppressions. That chemical residue was found at some of the sights. Seddam Pushed and pushed trying to see how much he could get away with. Testing the strength and resolve of the free world. Do you have Children? If you tell them to stop doing something, Or you will have to punish them. And they continue doing it. What do you do? Keep threatening? Soon they learn your words blow in the wind. The threat no longer bares any weight. It is only by acting on the threat that it holds validity. That is what Seddam was doing. seeing what he could get away with. Stopping him had nothing to do with 9/11. It had to do with his blatant disregard for human life, it had to do with his defiance. Every time he would defy the UN he looked for the response of the Arab world, to see where he may gather support. Now I know You are going to respond with, But we found no significant stash of weapons of mass distraction. But there is a lot of desert to hide things in. Even it there are none. That does not matter. the fact is he did all he could to make himself look guilty as hell. He was trying to find the outer limits of our tolerance. Well, Guess what, he found them. That is what this is about. Not weather President Bush Served in the Guard. Not how his tax programs are working. Not about weather he is a capitalist, Naturalist, environmentalist, Jew, or anything else. Go back and read the original post. It started off someone Blasting our President for "HIS WAR." And as usual those who disagree with him. have clouded the facts with a smokescreen of anything, and everything they can to besmirch him.
That Is like saying Bill Yox (no offense Bill Just an analogy) won world champion whitetail. But he does no deserve it because he drinks, and does not go to church. The two have Nothing to do with each other.


This response submitted by Steve Steinbring on 01/26/2004. ( )


Its not a matter of you serving in the military or not and no one here is calling you a coward. There are a great number of outstanding citizens that never served a day in the military. Frankly given a choice I would never have my son serve if it came to it, I'd rather take his place. Why? Often its no cake walk and I like all parents would prefer him out of harms way.

What does bother many of us who served are unqualified comments from individuals who never served a day. Making judgements and statements about military related subjects that they have little or no experience to draw from. Naratives about my Daddy said this and that when he was in the big one, its second hand. No disrespect meant to anyones father who served, mine did too! The question is what was your experience that qualifies you?

the reason he refered to the word coward...

This response submitted by Bill Yox on 01/26/2004. ( )

...is because I said earlier, "wheres the Bush hating cowards?" or words to that effect. The word coward was used by me in the context that the Bush haters were (and still are) afraid to address the post that showed their democratic candidate heros quoted as saying the exact same thing they hate Bush for saying. (see Repulican post in this thread above) Nobody is a coward for not serving there country. I didnt serve. I registered as I was told, thats all. Hell, I didnt know what I wanted when I was 18. My Dad was a CSM in the Army reserve, so the military was A.) what I was being threatened with if I didnt behave as a kid, and B.) all I ever heard about, and wasnt interested in at that age. You guys dont know how badly I wish I was able to go into the service as I got older and understood things a bit better. It was too late by then. Thats why I teach my children to respect veterans.

well let's see

This response submitted by DaveT on 01/26/2004. ( )

Let's see, on this post alone, I can side with JohnC, Steve S., George R, Tenbears, Paul I, Alan C., Jeremy R., Brian, Wilson, Cart, Marc, and Jim. A lot of whom I know and respect, many of them having served our country.

Or I can go with Cecil, A guy who's only purpose in life seems to be to bash our president and regurgitate the crap he digests from the liberal media (by the way I still want to see the official AWOL paperwork you keep saying Bush committed - put up or shut up and don't tell me about paperwork, if he committed AWOL in the military there is a paper trail and it is free under the freedom of information act) or Steve (Steve who?) a guy who not only bashes our president but religion and the Bible every chance he gets?

Not much of a choice.

Bush in '04 YEE HAW

Dave T

What a Cop Out

This response submitted by Paul I on 01/26/2004. ( paulblastoatyahoo.com )

George you are 100 percent right as normal on your statements about Cecil.Up till about about a week ago I liked reading his posts and after watching him go after Dave during his emergency leave and all the Bush bashing to piss people off I will say he is a punk.Guys like this get their ass kicked all the time because they dont know when to quit.

A good ending?

This response submitted by Doug on 01/26/2004. ( )

What do you get when you have one conservative republican and one liberal democrat? Hopefully you have 2 loyal Americans.

I dont think so!

This response submitted by Alan Childs on 01/26/2004. ( )

First off, let me quote you, "I am one of you". Wrong, in order to be in my category, alot of changes are in order.

1. I love eating sushi, especially Salmon

2. I am NOT a republican

3. I am NOT a communist

4. I am NOT a facist

5. Being a gun owner and a hunter has nothing to do w/ this post
(however, if you want to keep these rights, you had better pull your head out your @#&* before elections)

6. I may have an ounce of inellegence

7. I dont consider myself a redneck. Should I?

You dont even know me, except what you can gather from this post & from what I can gather of you, your reading, listening, reasoning skills need much improvement. Calm down, take a deep breath & review the previous posts written by these fine scholars - George Roof, Bill Yox, Tenbears, Major Steinbring, John C, Paul I, & SSG Rainey.

You also refered to me as part of a "Red Blooded God Bless America, Im better than you crowd". Well now, that is partly, but not completely true. Yes, I am about as Red Blooded as they come. Yes, I LOVE MY COUNTRY & most of all I LOVE MY GOD. I am also extremely proud of this fact. However, I do NOT proclaim to be perfect.

You say that "you have the utmost respect for our men and women in the military. You also go as far as saying that you have a few close friends who were in the first gulf war". If you had the respect that you say you have for our servicemen & women, you would not have made all the comments that you have made. Also, making the statement about having friends in the military the way you did. Is like saying that you have some caucasion friends. (You may not understand what I meant on that last part - if not let me know & Ill try to help you understand).

You also state that you understand what has to be done to keep our borders safe, but you also state that the problem you have now, is that Iraq was never proven to be linked to Bin Laden, the Taliban or 9-11. You tell us that we cant just say"...well..what if they got weapons & if they actually were able to get weapons, they would attack us. How can you make this leap"? Evidently not. You dont have an inkling of what it takes to keep our borders safe, or you would'nt of said the rest that I have quoted you on. You just dont get it. No, I dont have a crystal ball. No, I did'nt call the psychic friends network & I am not what ifing this thing. Do some homework.

You Said that "we cannot invade a country and destabilize a large region of the world on What Ifs". HELLO, Evidently we did, except it was based on what is referred to in the intellegence world as HUMINT & not What Ifs(you would know this if you had done your previous home work). Yes, Saddam Hussein has been a piss ant in this region for years, too many. Yes, we used him, to serve our National Interest but that was a different time, & things change.

I dont know, just as you cant possibly know what Paul Oneal, Vice President Cheney, or President Bush's personal agenda is. Being President, Mr. Bush has to make tough descisions on a daily basis & one day he will be judged for his descisions & actions, by a much higher authority than you & I. I believe he has done a fine job, much better than I think I could do. I would ask you to try walking in his shoes, it may or may not change your mind. The bottom line is he was elected & he is YOUR President too, that is, if you are still calling yourself a "American". If you think some one else is more deserving, vote for them. It is your "American Right", that is the real reason those Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, & Marines sacrificed & continue to sacrifice what they do. Its for FREEDOM not politics. Get it yet? This is not intended to bash YOU, I have the right to challenge what I dont like, just as you do. Our country isnt at risk of being hijacked by a war-mongering, religious right wing conservative. Its being threatened by people that dont want to realize that there are forces that would like us to bow down to them. Im sorry, NOT me. If I remained silent on this subject, I would be the coward & surrender is not in my creed. I am Proud to be American, I am Proud of my Country, & I am Proud of the guys & girls on this website that have taken a stand for what I hold so dear. I salute them.

Now that I think of it, mabee you were refering to yourself as a Moron.

Do you still think, I quote, "I am one of you".

I didnt think so.

Oh, by the way this is a Taxidermy site, not a political site, & I for one, am getting tired of your beligerent bull@#&*, but then again thats your right. Heck thats why I joined the Army

Oh, besides you did say, "that you have a life and that you cant be on this site responding to our flapping mouths all day". That is the most intellegent thing you have said, mabee your not a Moron at all.

Yours Truly,
Alan Childs

P.S. I used my full name, did you? Why not?

Paul I, don't make things up.

This response submitted by Cecil Baird ( ) on 01/26/2004. ( )

What a Cop Out
This response submitted by Paul I on 01/26/2004. ( paulblastoatyahoo.com )
George you are 100 percent right as normal on your statements about Cecil.Up till about about a week ago I liked reading his posts and after watching him go after Dave during his emergency leave and all the Bush bashing to piss people off I will say he is a punk.Guys like this get their ass kicked all the time because they dont know when to quit.

I never went after Dave because of his emergency leave. I asked him how he found so much time on here while on duty. He has been on here durng the day long before his emergency leave. If you don't like me and don't agree with me that's fine, but please don't fabricate things.

Read This One

This response submitted by Paul I on 01/26/2004. ( paulblastoatyahoo.com )

Cecil being that you cant take the time to read what I have to say and think about your fellow taxidermists and how proud I am to be able to talk and LISTEN to them do not address me any more as I do not want to listen any longer.Your not worth the time.

Hey Cecil

This response submitted by DaveT on 01/26/2004. ( )

Just because I come on here during the day don't mean I am at work, ever hear of shift work? I guess the Indianna Guard units don't have shifts? We run 24/7


Very well said Alan!

This response submitted by John C on 01/26/2004. ( )

Wow, impressive!

John C

This response submitted by Alan Childs on 01/26/2004. ( )

John C,
Thank You for the kind words, but I must honestly say that I am disapointed in myself. I let this get too personal. I said during my last post, Im not perfect & I LOVE MY GOD. As this rang true during both posts. Well, I LOVE MY GOD but I got a sorry way to show it. I Let my fellow Christians, myself, & most of all my God down. The point of it was intended, but the way I went about it was wrong. Well, lesson learned.

Alan Childs

Thanx Alan

This response submitted by George on 01/27/2004. ( georoof@aol.com )

It's always good to know those who have our backs. "..It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds..."
- Samuel Adams -

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