Steve Steinbring here's the link for you

Submitted by Cecil Baird ( ) on 01/26/2004. ( )

I would have posted this on the other post titled, "7 of our U.S. Soldiers killed in past 2 days.(01/24/2004)," but it has gotten so long and so negative I've decided to post it here.

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whay a crock

This response submitted by DaveT on 01/26/2004. ( )

Cecil writes "but it has gotten so long and so negative I've decided to post it here"

Kind a like the pot calling the kettle black?



This response submitted by DaveT on 01/26/2004. ( )

And you stake your credibility, what little there is, on the Boston Globe being respectable and unbiased? ROFLMAOAY


Dave, you are a model of positivity, fairmindedness and

This response submitted by Cecil Baird ( ) on 01/26/2004. ( )

a gentleman above reproach. You never say anything negative about anyone. It's such a pleasure to read your posts. Yeah right.

BTW, what sources do you read? Or do you get all your news from the Fox network? NILMAOAY.

I try Cecil, I try

This response submitted by DaveT on 01/27/2004. ( )

I try not to say negative things but I sometimes fail, especially when it comes to you and Hillary. Most of the time you provoke it though, Hillary, well that just comes natural.

Cecil, this may come as a shock to you but I watch CNN, FOX, ABC and NBC. I read the paper and average a couple books a month. I also read several military publications and try to read the Bible, although not as much as I should.

The point is I don't start post slamming the President or even the democrat/liberal candidates (just their ideals). I usually state my thoughts, feelings. You on the other hand never state what you are for, why you like anyone, all you do is bad mouth folks and tell us why we should not be for Bush/ republican, etc.... You openly admit you like to cause trouble here, to get folks flared... well congrats you achieve that and sometimes you go way overboard.

Here's some advice, stop slamming folks and just speak your mind on the topic of the day and tell us who you are for and what you believe. I will do the same. But please, this crap about President Bush being AWOL is crap as are most of the things you have said about him. I know he is not perfect. But do you honestly think he started a war for profit and blatantly lied to the American people? He could have covered up the WMD thing but instead let it "air". You may not like him as a president, but you should stick to know facts not liberal hype.

I apologize for having offended you in the past; I will try to keep reason above emotion from here on. But you got to help me out by not making false accusations about our President, the war, religion, etc... Just stick to the facts and I think we can do this?

I still cannot figure out you last acronym? Perhaps you can email it to me.

PS I still think you sell good fish


Has anyone tried........

This response submitted by PC on 01/27/2004. ( )

Has anyone tried just ignoring Cecil? He is just like the kid in the back of the class that constantly tries to disrupt things by being an idiot. There are a few Forum idiots on here--maybe if we just ignore them they will go away.
I doubt it too, but it was an inviting thought anyway.

Thank You Cecil!

This response submitted by Steve Steinbring on 01/27/2004. ( )


I read the article and for the most part there is a lot of supposition which confirms nothing. The article did point out that George Bush was a good pilot and can think on his feet.

Frankly if I had to retrace my reserve time it would also be difficult. It was a time before computers and most of those records were hand kept by the individual units, and sent up stream to who knows where to be archived. I would like to get a copy of my flight records from the military, I made a mistake of not getting them before I retired. No Soap! Those records exist somewhere, but I can't get access. It is not surprising that an accurate accounting of events can not be created. Without accurate records and just hear say testomony from a few people about something 20 years ago there is no case. The article is just a hypothesis with a few facts sprinkled in which can not be proved. For me there is not enough substantiation of anything to come to any kind of fair conclusion regardless of who the article is about. It just doesn't prove anything.

Remember we are innocent until proven guilty here in this country.


This response submitted by Bill Yox on 01/27/2004. ( )

He said "now Im laughing my ass of at you". The sad thing is, cecil isnt a bad guy, but something has changed with these dumb posts. It used to be a topic brought up, then debate, even if some get a bit spirited. Now its just like listening to the democrats on TV. They start out with some outlandish lie, then go downhill from there. Like Kerry the other day. Instead of standing there in Iowa and impressing an intelligent crowd by telling folks why he IS the man for the job, and selling his good points, the best he could do was joke about how "at least SOME guys dont have to rent their flight suits for the photo op". Is that the best they have? Just like taxidermy...who is the customer taking his deer to, the guy who doesnt talk down the competitions work and speaks positively about what he can do, or the guy whose work is crap, so he just badmouths his competition in an attempt to bring them down to his sorry level? We preach it all the time with taxidermy, yet we dont see it here. The other real shame is, cecil thinks hes kicking ass and taking names, or at least building a voting base for his latest candidate. Sad thing is, if he saw all the private emails and heard the phone calls, he would drop it now.

I give up on the current cecil, bring back the old cecil we used to know.

DOD 201 files.

This response submitted by John C on 01/27/2004. ( )

Last year I wrote the VA for a copy of my DD201, not the DD 214.

201 file is what you did in the military, guess what? Even though its my file its not open for anyone to see including me! Thats right even by suppling a copy of my 214 and tons of information proving it is my who is asking, I am not allowed to see my 201.

The only proof of what anyone did in the military is the DD214, your discharge papers and they are not the complete file just a brief. It does not tell your complete military history.

Now lets see where the alleged misdoings of President Bush are posted on his 214?

Cecil you've got me thinking

This response submitted by Steve Steinbring on 01/27/2004. ( )

Its been over 30 years since I took the AFOQT (Air Force Officer Qualification Test).

Bush's score of 25 may not have been a bad score at all. As I remember the test was comprised of a number of sections. There was a general knowledge section like a SAT, mechanical aptitude section, pilot and navigator sections, can't recall how many portions there were. I do know officers that did well the navigation section, but not the pilot portion that went on to be commissioned and nav school or vice versa. I don't know how the sections were graded and weighted as far as the commissioning, or how many points were required on the pilot and navigator qualification portions, they appeared as just sections of the total exam.

How many of you REALLY READ the article rather than just

This response submitted by Cecil Baird ( ) on 01/27/2004. ( )

blowing it off? Furthermore, this is the most favorable article I could find and does not automatically condemn the man.

AT least Steve skimmed it over, but apparently only just that, as if he would have really read the article he would have noticed it was not referring to an AFOQT. It was a PAT (Pilot apptitude test). There is a difference.

Dave, in regards to your, "But you got to help me out by not making false accusations about our President, the war, religion, etc... Just stick to the facts and I think we can do this?"

I have not done any thing of the kind. It may not be what you want to hear, but my statements are anything but unfactual. I may be a fool your eyes but I am not a liar.

And finally Bill Yox, with your statement of "Dave, He said, now Im laughing my ass of at you". Do you underestimate Dave? I think he can figure out an acronym like NILMAOAY all by himself expecially since he intitiated it with ROFLMAOAY.

You guys are as hopeless as you believe I am. LOL

I read it

This response submitted by DaveT on 01/27/2004. ( )

I read the entire article and it was very biased, as is anything the Boston Globe puts out. I did not call you a liar, I just asked you to stick to facts. I was referring to your comments that he committed AWOL (he did not and there is no record of that) and to your comment, that he purposely lied to the American people to start a war for his own personal gain. Comments like these are speculation and unfactual. Yes I am hopeless... duh


Not Really Cecil!

This response submitted by Steve Steinbring on 01/27/2004. ( )

You assume a lot Cecil!

Part of it is that I'm not as smart as you, because I can not come the same conclusions from something we've both read.

However plowing through life in my lost way, I did pass the pilot aptitude test and the commissioning test. Got commissioned and received my wings! A 23 year career coming from E-1 to O-4 and could have stayed for LtCol. if I'd wished. I spent a long year in a very stressful enviroment where many canidates couldn't cut the mustard, over half. That part you will not ever understand. WHATEVER! Have you taken the test, if not I really doubt your qualified to remark. When I took the exam part of the AFOQT test in 1971 if my memory serves me right. It had the pilot aptitude test as part of the exam as well as the navigator portion. Same era, same testing! What am I missing here?

You are right Steve

This response submitted by DaveT on 01/27/2004. ( )

I have taken the AFOQT and it was one of the toughest test I have taken. I scored reasonably well, enought to purse a commission. I did not follow throught as I was a single dad at the time. Steve, we both know how demanding a new LTs path is.

Like I said it is a tough test. If anyone has taken the GRE (the test you must take to enter most college Master Degree programs)you know what I am talking about. Yes, navigator and Pilot apptitude is a part of the AFOQT, that is why we are called US Air Force... we screen officers for possible pilot candidates.


sheesh, cecil

This response submitted by Bill Yox on 01/27/2004. ( )

As sharp as you tell us you are, and you didnt know why I spelled it out for him? Ay yeye! (or however you spell it)

Please don't patronize me Bill

This response submitted by Cecil Baird ( ) on 01/27/2004. ( )

You used to be pretty level headed and now you've have become vindictive and biting just like a few of the others.

I don't believe I'm smarter than anyone on here. I made the mistake of posting my I.Q. on here just in jest, and I am still paying for it.

I do know one thing. I respect Steve for not calling me names although he probably wants to. Let's just agree we don't agree on this and leave it at that? I won't change your minds and you won't change mine. We're all Americans and many of us on here have served our country.

Ah name calling again Cecil?

This response submitted by DaveT on 01/28/2004. ( )

I thought we were going to stop this labeling and name calling?


Why would I call you names Cecil?

This response submitted by Steve Steinbring on 01/28/2004. ( )


First, I think that debate on issues is healthy. It gets the gray matter in your hat rack moving. The hard part for most folks is trying to be objective and not let their personal feelings get involved. I can be swayed in my opinions if I am shown adequate information about something. I also do not vote strickly down a party line about things. I make my own decisions about the issues.

Cecil my reference to you being smart had nothing to do with your IQ posting. I fact I never saw that post, nor do I care. It simply was a statement made from the perspective that you feel that I am not perhaps literate enough to really interpute what I read. As far as IQ I think IQ values are subjective and are often flawed. If you happen to know a lot about whats on that test you do well, if not your not graded as being so smart. For example: a month or so I took one of those little IQ mind benders for entertainment here on the web. I scored a 144 on that test the highest being a 160. Big deal! If may wife had taken the test with her limited math background its a good chance she would be graded an idiot. She is far from that and excels in other areas. If you were to give me a test in music I would do very poorly, I have no talent. I've taken the AF captains exam and scored in the upper 95%, I guess I knew the material on the test and thats all it proves. Nothing else.

Getting back to G.W. Bush, there are too many holes in the article for me to be convinced of anything on an objective basis. For example in the Reserves or Guard you can have a good year of service, but have a bad year for retirement, missing too many meetings for the proper number of points for a good year. If you are placed in casual status with no job, you would not necessarily report to a flying squardron. They may have you down at finance or personnel doing something else. As far as the Alabama squadron folks remembering George Bush after 30 years, most people can't remember what they had for dinner last week. I was placed in inactive reserve status once and didn't have to attend meetings, I had two bad years for retirement, but my service time was still good. Case in point.

Frankly I also don't think the author of the article has a very good understanding of the Air Force much less its Reserve or Guard components. The article was constructed on here say and not enough concrete evidence to confirm any suspicions. It just doesn't holdup.


This response submitted by ? on 01/28/2004. ( )

what is your IQ?

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