about those archives...We TOLD you so!

Submitted by Bill Yox on 03/31/2004 at 00:32. ( )

You guys all know by now that Im through suggesting the archives all the time, only to be accused of being a &*#$. I also took the newbies advice many months ago, you know, when they all said "if you dont want to answer our repetitive questions, then dont..." Well, I didnt, so I dont! But, just like me and George and some others told you, its happening. I know Ill catch hell for saying it too, but you oughtta know I dont care whats said, so Ill say it. Look at some of the recent questions in this forum. Same questions, over and over, but with the new (and predicted) twist. Crappy, inaccurate answers. No answers from us old grumpy expletives, just wrong answers. I cant point you to any particular one because itll of course embarrass the person who replied with the wrong answers. But you just read through the last three days, and tell me what you think. Theres some really bad advice, even some that will screw up the job mentioned if that advice is heeded. Oh well, maybe THEN these people will check those archives. I also know someone will again say, "oh, so its the big three's opinion, or you are wrong". Hardly. But someone will say it, lol. Anyway, we all warned you before, and its now come to fruition. Sort it all out, or check the archives before asking, then be specific with details on a question you still have. Trust me, the archives will never dry up the new questions that keep this forum going.

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Dont you just hate...

This response submitted by Michael on 03/31/2004 at 08:10. ( )

being right all the time. LOL But seriously I agree with you Bill, I've been doing taxidermy for a few years now and I like to think I can discern between the good and bad advice. But one thing is for sure, If a post is from Bill Yox, George Roof, Cecil Beird, Dave Toms, and a few other "vetrans" (for a lack of a better word), of taxidermy, I pay d amn close attention, for you guys are a wealth of information. I for one appreciate your willingness to give out your time tested advice. I've learned alot from you guys mainly from reading those archives. Some nights I stay up 1/2 the night just searching looking for different ways of doing things. Anyhow I dont blame you're frustration, Nobody likes to answer the same question over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.................

Only one problem

This response submitted by . on 03/31/2004 at 09:14. ( )

The archives are filled with crappy questions and crappy answers from several years. Everything gets put in there. Maybe an expert could narrow them down to save hours of reading. Not implying that Mark isn't, he's just doing his job.

I have told people what to look under and I get slammed.

This response submitted by John C on 03/31/2004 at 10:58. ( )

As Bill said Look at the post over the last few days. I have been slammed for telling someone how many seconds it to to use the search and how many post for the subject are listed. I get slammed for telling someone they have a form or mannikin and not a "Mold" I even get slammed for telling someone how to do things with a tachnique I know will work and is almost fool proof "Thats not the answer I was looking for."

As Bill said Very tactfully "the answer is in the archives, find it yourself"

Even funnier is when someone wants the whole method typed in just for them! Its all covered in the Breakthrough MANUALS on Taxidermy. ITs already been typed in, archived here also.

If you cannot afford the books, you cannot afford to begin to learn taxidermy.

End of story.

good point on the archived "crappy" answers too

This response submitted by Bill Yox on 03/31/2004 at 11:37. ( )

I guess the cream rises eventually, so when you have good AND bad advice in the archives, along with the banter back and forth, you get more accurate end results. But now, you get poor answers, but unopposed answers, as most of us arent rehashing them. Now do you see what Im saying? And Michael, Im not saying if those guys say it, it must be right. Its when the good answers outweigh the bad, so to speak, lol. Thanks for the kind words though.

I love the Dot boy

This response submitted by George on 03/31/2004 at 14:01. ( georoof@aol.com )

There are CRAPPY Questions in there because the bleeding hearts on here insist on telling those people that "there's no such thing as a stupid question". And then when one of us tells the person he's a dumass, WE get called all those names. So you rocket scientists out there, you can't have it both ways. I'm not one to blow roses up your butts, so instead, I don't answer as so many of you told me to do.

Great post Bill. I still love you, now matter if Lanny (Briane) does tell everyone my work sucks. LMAO (BTW, he's right.)

Rantings of a Newbie - Directed to Old & New

This response submitted by Mac on 03/31/2004 at 20:24. ( bowhuntermac69@yahoo.com )

I've been watching and contributing here and there, but mainly watching since December. Could'nt even begin to be considered green around the gills in regard to knowledge of this profession/hobby/art, or whatever your participation may be. Being this new many of you may say "Mac, you have'nt been here long enough to even begin to form or post a quasi-educated opinion", and you may be right, but I'm going to try to anyway.

Looking in from the outside I cannot help but see the frustration building lately. I know that I am free to leave or skip a post if I do not like what I read, but since I started visiting, this whole arena has changed in atmosphere and that's sad. I'm glad I was smart enough to take the hint from the first posts I read, to search for my question prior to posing it, so as not to be drilled as others have. It took a while but I am now a solid believer in that "@*#$ orange button. Matter of fact, I just returned from a search on GeoRoof to see just how far back his cynisism carried, and when you go back to 00' or 99' and read the answers this man has posted, you would not think it was the same individual in the way of expressionism. (Mr. Roof I am not trying to put you down and I hope that my statement was/is not misconstrued.) I can only imagine being in his position, as well as the other staples of this site and getting the same ol questions over and over. But in the same token, being new, I see the point of others and had even questioned in my mind, if these people like acting as teachers, how can they not have a tolerance when the basis of teaching is the answering of questions?

I am beginning to believe that the cultural changes of our society from generation to generation is the primary culprit in that regard, and one of the "idiots" in one of Mr. Roof's many idiosyncrocies. The change I speak of is respect for those who have come before you. I grew up with a Southern upbringing which included the obligatory "Yes Sir, Yes Ma'am, Respect your elders! (even if they don't know what they are talkin bout!) along with the instilling of a GOOD WORK ETHIC, So that helps a bit in my case. Many of the younger individuals new to this site, as so many have noted, lack that respect and ethic, expect everything right now and do not understand why they cannot have it their way. Because of that, (IMHO) fact, I find it hard to derive or pose a solution to the Orange Button Blues which has seemed to plague the site.

I guess in the interim, to those who gave the finger to those who directed you to use the search and would scoff at me and call me an @ss kisser among other things, I have to say that you have yet to dig far enough into the archives to see the boundless information there. But what about those garbage answers!?! Well you have to use your brain and read, re-read, search and read some more, writing down answers as you find them.

True, I'm sure there are some lousy, possibly even detrimental answers to the multitude of questions that have been posted, and my concern is, how am I or other "newbies" to know a good answer from a bad answer at times? (Rhetorical, for those who are not "New")

Now, fortunately I consider myself a resonably intelligent individual and can normally rationalize and use common sense to pick out the appropriate course of action, but what about those who are not so mentally inclined? Well, Mr. Yox nicely pointed out you need to weed through the answers and see which ones are repeditive and come out the most. "But it takes sooooooo long to do because there are so many! WAAAAA! I have a 26400 dial up connection because I live in BFE Va, in the middle of 80 acres, work a full time job plus weekends, make dates with my Wife for extracurricular fun and still MAKE time to research my questions...............Sorry all, had a bad day at the nuthouse and it has obviously carried over.

Bottom line in my mind is 1) for the sites "Icons", maybe find a solution with the site host by adding a highlighted paragraph to direct new individuals to use the search tools THOROUGHLY before posting their questions, and 2) for those of you outside the "know" like myself, use the infamous Orange Button till the color comes off THEN post your still unanswered questions in a tactful, respectable manner, including the statement that you have exhausted your leads and I am inclined to say, that the answer you recieve will be similar to those Mr. Roof posted years ago. Leave some reference dates as evidence. BUT BE FORWARNED! If you try and fake it and not do a solid search, these folks will undoubtedly let you know, bombard you with sarcasm, cynisism and put downs because they use it too!

If I pissed you off with my rantings - tough, made you laugh - great, got you completely and utterly confused - well, at least it got you thinkin, if I educated just 1 person it was all worth it.

To return to the matter at hand...

This response submitted by Susan on 03/31/2004 at 22:24. ( designhabitat@earthlink.net )

Hey Guys, I didn't come here to be told off, be insulted, berated or to be made to feel stupid-so quit wasting my time! For all the time it took the "offenders" to work their frustrations out on their keyboards, you could have given constructive answers and a little encouragement to the people posing ligitimate questions( they were valid when you asked them years ago too..). As my Grandma was often heard to say, "If you can't say something constructive and encouraging, don't say anything!". We can see the ORANGE BUTTON, but maybe we want an up-to-date answer and get the rest of the viewers opinions of the answer,or even if they have a different idea with a new twist on it. It's called a free exchange of information. There are you satisfied? You got a rise out of me too! Here's MY question..When a "newbie" goes through the archives, how are they supposed to be able to tell the difference between the 'crappy' and the 'useful' information? Huh? I guess ONE way is to ask their question and get an exchange of current information going with a knowledgable person about the subject matter. And another thing, there ISN'T such a thing as a dumb question-if you don't know the answer it's usually best to ask someone who knows the answer,Right? Most people seeking help do not appreciate someone with a smartaleck retort! I apologize for having taken up the time of the people seeking help/information on this forum, because that's what I come here for too. I won't go WAAAA...WAAAA! I just don't appreciate the 'few' grumbling about repeated questions. If they don't want to respond-they don't have to. I can't complain and say I've had a bad day..I'm still "alive and kicking high". Actually, I've had a pretty GOOD day! I found out my averaged grades in my college classes (Organizational Behavior in Business,& Human Resource Mgmt., Accounting, English, Principles of Marketing,& Advertising and Promotion) came up to an A-. THAT's hard work along with 8 hours in the "T" studio.I may be new to the forum, but I've been in the industry, and practicing taxidermy art for 12 years. If I can help anyone with any questions related to Taxidermy, I will. Now that I've got that out of my system...I'm going to make me a cup of coffee, settle down to read the rest of the forums, and continue my education in a subject I truly enjoy! Talk at'cha later -Susan

High light the beginners button.

This response submitted by Danial on 03/31/2004 at 23:47. ( cindy@nex.net.au )

The beginners is the place thay will be cut more slack, than thay are already geting. The other buttons are for more advace people and before you ask, a dozon mounts does not make you a pro but hopefuly you will start to see your work in it tru light by then, and then you can call your self a beginer. Ive bin doing taxy 15 years and im still leaning

hahaha, see, George?

This response submitted by Bill Yox on 04/01/2004 at 00:27. ( )

Some of them will not get it, will they? Danial got it though. Mac seemed to be on the right track for a bit. Anyway, I rest my case. Evidently the part where we dont answer eluded some still...

But Susan

This response submitted by George on 04/01/2004 at 00:38. ( )

You ARE Waaing. What makes you think the information in the archives is outdated? Especially if you don't want to bother to look for it anyway. And why isn't, "Click on that orange "SEARCH" icon" considered helpful information? Your response sounds a lot like "dot boy" in that you want us to ignore having spent years learning and minutes typing explicit instructions prior to your posting on the exact same subject. You want to know, in a second, without one bit of work on your part, for us to tell you what it took years to learn? Is that what you've said? Hmmmm, I guess I'll do something unprecedented and be nice. Just for a second, however, imagine you sitting through a college course and half way through, a transfer student arrives in your class. This student asks a question that was covered a month before. Tell me exactly what your professor tells this student? What do your classmates do when this question is asked? Tell me you all play nice.

Then you have the audacity to say, "if you don't have something good to say, don't say anything". So Bill doesn't bother to answer you and I don't bother to answer you. One of two things always happens to these posts. (1) Some numbnuts without a clue gives you advice that can destroy your work or (2) You RE-POST the same question and then complain that no one answered your first post. I'm guilty as charged now, because when I see #1, I'm forced to tell him he's a numbnuts and you shouldn't listen to advice which makes ME an arrogant, know-it-all,spiteful, malcontented, senile, old SOB or for #2, I feel pity no one has thrown you a bone and I tell you to look in the archives. Can't win with you, can I?

If, as you say, "people seeking help do not appreciate someone with a smartaleck retort", then that must, by implication mean they'd rather remain ignorant than have their egos bruised. Now I don't mind that you believe what your liberal/socialist professors teach you in college, but I'd admonish you to check their credentials against ours. They have NEVER done anything in life other than live in an academic environment that's self serving. They get paid for pretending they've experienced what they teach. In the real world where the rest of us pay our way, we know there are absolutely DUMB and even DUMBER questions. We see them here everyday. Bill Engvall has made a fortune highlighting those people who need to carry a sign warning others of their stupidity. After you complete your "book learning",start your "education" and jump on over into our real world. And when you get here, remember where you saw this, because "I TOLD YOU SO" is now in the archives as well.

More up to date answers? B.S!

This response submitted by John C on 04/01/2004 at 08:44. ( )

The answers for the biggest part are up to date.
Tanning, that is all current tech. with currently available chemicals.
You can see that by looking at the answers.

Setting deer eyes, that amounts to replacing muscles using clay or epoxy. There is nothing more current.

The only OUTDATED thing mentioned here is LYSOL.

So how can a answer be more current knowledge than the same answer posted a few days ago?

The latest inventions posted here are Newton Supply's line of Epoxy products.

Using auto upholstry dye on bears.

Since all these methods are used daily in our shops, how in the world can the be more current.

So Susan and others, what is the point of repeating the same answer 500 times? Why should the daily editors repost the same answer over and over?

It boils down to this, us, we the old grumps, old bastards, the SOB's that help you newbies out are the same ones that are giving, teaching seminars and attending the big shows and keeping OUR KNOWLEDGE CURRENT! Why should we? Its sure not to help the ones who claim they cannot afford to go to shows!


This response submitted by Leanna on 04/01/2004 at 09:56. ( scardeer@cornernet.com )

Are you seeing the frustration here? These guys are explaining very ABC-edly why not answering the redundant questions and even YOU aren't getting it! You said you were "new" to the forums, get reading girl, you will figure it out. You go ahead and answer all the same questions and we will check back with you and your new attitude in about four years. You say then "don't answer?" Exact point Bill and George were making. I'm not hardballing you here, just pointing out that you yourself have missed the purpose of this post. Glad you had a good day, I'd hate to see you on a bad day...LOL

Weeding out the crap from the topsoil? Common sense as well as research, as WELL as on hands trial and error.

Mac, I enjoyed your ravings and glad to see you understand what's being said here.

And Bill, nice intention on your original posting, but alas eh?! Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Miss Leanna

This response submitted by Mac on 04/01/2004 at 11:44. ( vabowhunter@worldnet.att.net )

I am glad you could see what I was saying. I do not normally go off at the cuff like that. Because of my work schedule and a graduating high school student going on to college I do not have the finances or time to make the shows I want to make but I did go through the motions for the Breakthrough subscriptions,a NTA membership, a couple of videos, booklets and about 3 other books I ordered through WASCO. Not to mention much time in the archives looking and reading any multitudes of subjects. If you want something badly enough you will be willing to do what it takes to get there. I know my time and financial limitations and have to take advantage of what the fine folk here have contributed. Miss Susan, please read my post again, the people I am refering too are, like myself, direly wet behind the ears and are still learning things such as what a dorsal incision is, what hide paste is ect. ect. Not the fact that you are new to the site. This place is a wealth of info and I guess I got on my "High Horse" because I would hate to see the knowledgeable people here stop answering others good questions. The temptation to immediately ask in a post is very strong when you first arrive, at least it was in my case, but I chose to read a bunch before I did.

Mr. Yox, do you still have weekend classes? If so, would you mind e-mailing me a estimate of cost / schedule and any prerequisites/requirements you may have? My thanks in advance.

Ooh George...

This response submitted by Susan on 04/06/2004 at 01:08. ( designhabitat@earthlink.net )

I missed something... WHEN did I call you all those names? As for my "liberalist/socialist professors", try to IMAGINE what I'm going to college for..? Ever heard of Business Administration? As in-running your own business. As for Taxidermy related education, the best teachers I've ever had instruction with are; Archie Phillips(Archie Phillips Taxidermy), supply Mike Noonkester Supply(Noonkester Taxidermy Supply), John David Ellzey(J.D. Ellzey's Squirrel Forms), Eric Carter(Taxidermy Today Magazine-writer),Joe Ferebee, Paul Rhymer, Roger Martin, Dan Rhinehart, Tom Sexton, Rick Kennair, Calley Morris, and the list goes on...Do YOU recognize any of these people? I've NEVER asked any of them a question(that they haven't heard at least a zillion times)..that they didn't give me an respectful answer. NOT ATTITUDE! If I have a question-even now-I feel I can call them to get a responsible answer. Oh yeah...you check THEIR "credentials". They're WORLD CLASS ANYDAY! And for your comment on the "REAL WORLD"... EVERY time I teach a class in "Habitat Conception and Construction", I answer All my students' questions. After all, that's what they're there for - TO LEARN! In paying my own way, I've learned that you'll get a lot further being nice, than with a "Dumb and Dumberer"(I told you so!) attitude. Our Studio has placed in numerous competitions(with our COMMERCIAL mounts no less!). With working 8-10 hours in the Studio,a full schedule of college classes, babysitting my grandkids, keeping home and marriage together, I don't need you to tell me about the REAL WORLD, I experience it everyday. The difference with us it seems, is that I choose to view it in a more positive light. Don't treat me like a blonde - I have EARNED these "natural highlights" that appear to shine amongst the dark brown. YOU try marrying someone with 3 teenagers and make it work, build/open a new business, build a house, and actually 'have a life'. I have my own battle scars-just as I'm sure you have. So, we can either call a truce and try to get along or else we can ignor each other-You pick.

PS-I'm still gonna answer any question I can(techniques you can be sure are used in our shop), because with a free exchange of information and ideas we all learn & sometimes it will even nurture new ideas...-Susan

Miss Leanna and Mac

This response submitted by Susan on 04/06/2004 at 01:16. ( designhabitat@earthlink.net )

Yes I DO use the Orange button....Susan.- Have a nice day!

(Ooh George)

This response submitted by Susan on 04/06/2004 at 01:21. ( designhabitat@earthlink.net )

I'm still trying to figure out what went wrong with that "post". After submitting it and looking at it again, it somehow got slightly "re-arranged" with the blue lettering. Sorry if it's cornfuuzin'.-Susan

(Ooh George)

This response submitted by Susan on 04/06/2004 at 01:25. ( designhabitat@earthlink.net )

I'm still trying to figure out what went wrong with that "post". After submitting it and looking at it again, it somehow got slightly "re-arranged" with the blue lettering. Sorry if it's cornfuuzin'.-Susan

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