Iraq prisoner photos send shockwave - what a joke !

Submitted by A.C. on 05/04/2004 at 07:01. ( )

Please , give me a break ! These photos are completely tame compare to the photos of the people jumping out of the twin towers to thier death , or the 4 americans killed , burned , dismembered , and hung from a bridge. Or the video of american reporter Daniel Pearl getting his throat cut and later beheaded for the camera.

Or the fact the when our guys are found dead during combat , the Iraqis shoot thier genitels over & over as well as thier heads . Oh , but you don't see THOSE photos , they are too graphic for us .

Or what about the shootings in Isreal last weeekend ? Palastinians shot a pregnant woman and her 4 duaghters whose ages ranged from 4 to 11 . How come they don't show the blood covered teddybears and childrens books and the children face down in blood ? Or the pictures of the Iraqis that Sadam killed with chemicals ? or the Italian hostage they shot in the neck ! No , it's only those terrible Americans , what barbarians , treating prisoners of war like that . They should be hung ! Excuse me , I need to go throw up !

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I know what you mean A.C.

This response submitted by Bojack on 05/04/2004 at 08:10. ( )

This country has become so damn liberal its pathetic. the LAST place a news man or camera needs to be is in war. If the bunny huggin tree huggers want to know whats going on over there so they can bitch about everything we do, then they should join the military and get a first hand look.

You're missing the point

This response submitted by Liz on 05/04/2004 at 09:34. ( )

I agree that in comparison, the photos are tame. But, lets not forget, we are supposed to be appalled at all the things that the Iraqis have done, so saying that we did things that aren't quite as bad, is really not a good argument. We/our military/our country is supposed to be above those sort of things. We are AT LEAST supposed to be smarter than letting someone take pictures of us doing it!

Well ,

This response submitted by A.C. on 05/04/2004 at 10:04. ( )

without a doubt it should not happen but they are making it out to be way more than it is !

Don't think so A.C.

This response submitted by Cecil on 05/04/2004 at 10:24. ( )

It's below what we expect of Americans and its besmirches all of our other noble troops that wouldn't think of doing such a thing. In fact, it may even get some of them killed or tortured just because of a few morons. It's done a lot of damage to our effort in Iraq.

Don't make excuses and beelittle this kind of behavior.

Liz, you hit the nail on the head!

Think about this?

This response submitted by Luke on 05/04/2004 at 10:48. ( )

US Torture Commonplace Say Inmate Families

Abu Ghraib prison, near Baghdad, where stories of US guards routinely abusing prisoners come as no surprise to Iraqis...

For the families standing in the dusty car park of Abu Ghraib prison yesterday, the revelations of torture and abuse came as no surprise. Every morning, relatives of Iraqi detainees inside the US prison, just west of Baghdad, gather in the hope that their loved ones might be released. They rarely are.

The photos of US soldiers abusing and humiliating Iraqi detainees may have provoked outrage across the world. But for Hiyam Abbas they merely confirmed what she already knew - that US guards had tortured her 22-year-old son Hassan.

Breaking down in tears, Mrs Abbas said US guards had refused to let her in. She had so far only managed to see Hassan once - two months ago - following his arrest last November.

"He told me: 'Mum, they are taking our clothes off. We are nude all the time. They are getting dogs to smell our arses. They are also beating us with cables.'

"It's completely humiliating," Mrs Abbas said. "My son is sick and suffering from hypertension. During the interview the American soldiers were standing so close to us. My son was crying."

Her son had been detained in the Baghdad suburb of Al-Dora, after a gang broke into their house. What did she think of the Americans now?

"They are rubbish," she said. "Saddam Hussein may have oppressed us but he was better than the Americans. They are garbage."

Yesterday other Iraqis gave similar accounts of what goes on inside Abu Ghraib, once a centre of torture and execution under Saddam.

The US military last week claimed that "no more than 20" US soldiers had been involved in abusing and humiliating inmates. The vast majority of US guards were not involved, Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt suggested.

Yesterday, however, Abu Salem, who spent six months inside Abu Ghraib between August and February, said abuse by US guards went on all the time.

Mr Salem, 41, said he had also known about the practice of US soldiers posing for pictures with Iraqi prisoners for five months. "This didn't take place in the general camp but in individual cells," he said.


Mr Salem said he had been in the jail shortly before a visit from the International Red Cross in January. Until then, detainees in the prison wing had been kept naked.

"The night before the Red Cross arrived, the American soldiers gave them some new clothes. They told us that if we complained to the Red Cross about our treatment we would be kept in prison forever. They said they would never let us out."

Mr Salem said he had come to the jail, a short drive from the town's chaotic vegetable market, to try to find out what had happened to his three brothers. They were still inside the prison, he said, behind its outer fence and a vast razor wire- topped inner wall.

Generally, detainees were only tortured in the days immediately after their arrest, during interrogation, he added.

Many of the allegations made by Mr Salem and other former detainees yesterday correspond with the damning internal US army report into Abu Ghraib obtained by the Guardian and the New Yorker magazine.

Yesterday the mother of one detainee, Samira Hassan, said the latest allegations were horribly familiar.

Her 22-year-old son Abbas had been arrested three months ago while walking past a US military base in the Baghdad suburb of Amariya.

She finally managed to see him in prison two weeks ago. "He told me they are using electric shocks against the prisoners and taking off their clothes. He also told me something I can hardly talk about - that the Americans are raping the Iraqi men.

"This is terrible," Mrs Hassan said. "This is shame for us. We have a different culture and different religion. They should not do that.

"We are not talking about one case but of thousands of cases," she said. "The Americans said they would bring us freedom. Is this what they mean?"

Not all the detainees inside Abu Ghraib were young men, it emerged yesterday, or even very plausible resistance fighters. Several relatives wearing flowing white dish-dashes had turned up to try to visit Qahta al-Salim, a prominent 70-year-old sheikh from the Sunni town of Samarra.

Mr al-Salim had been in American custody for four months, his son, Mutashar Qahtan, said. US soldiers arrested him at his home after a neighbour claimed he supported the resistance.

"My father is an old man. He has a heart complaint. The first thing they did was to make him stand up for 12 hours," he complained. "They then took him to Tikrit and finally to here."

Mr Qahtan said the allegations of abuse by US soldiers were "nothing new". He said he spent 47 days last year in US custody in Tikrit. "Personally they didn't do anything wrong to me," he said. "But I saw for myself what they did to others. They forced a group of prisoners to stand naked on the roof for seven days. They also told us that all Iraqis were crap."

There are around 8,000 Iraqi prisoners in US custody, held in camps across Iraq without trial or access to a lawyer. A tiny minority of those detained are high-ranking members of the former regime.


Relatives, however, insist that the majority of "security detainees" are innocent, and claim they are often victims of random arrest following attacks on coalition forces. Either way, the images of torture and humiliation would merely serve to fuel the armed struggle against US occupation, Majid al-Salim, the brother of the imprisoned sheikh, said.

"The Americans are driving people into the arms of the Maqawama [resistance]," he said. "We now look back at Saddam's era with nostalgia," he added. "He was a good leader. There was security. We hope he comes back."


This response submitted by Tax on 05/04/2004 at 12:46. ( )

Do you really believe this crap? Another great parody from the great deceiver..

Screw the Iraqi's

This response submitted by terry on 05/04/2004 at 22:55. ( )

I was in the military & this sh*t makes me sick. Those bad americans over there doing all those horrible things.(BULLSH*T) Maybe it shouldn't have happened like it did. But what if it was your family that was pulled from a vehicle, tortured, burned & beaten & their skull being stomped on by some little Iraqi bastard & then hung from a bridge while everyone was celebrating. How would you all feel then? I say they should've wiped the whole city out!

My Two Cents

This response submitted by DevilDog on 05/07/2004 at 21:57. ( )

I am a former Marine. I have friends over in Iraq. I have lost friends doing things that you don't hear about. I was there with them when this stuff happened. As far as I am concerned, we should have flattened the whole middle east from the get-go. Get mad if you want, I dont care. You are entitled to your oppinion as I am mine.


This response submitted by Jo on 05/08/2004 at 00:59. ( )

Viewing all the news reports... I have never heard "WHO" took the pictures?

I sincerely don't believe that our week-end warriors could have done these things as a routine, ongoing method of operations without the "Spooks"... CIA, Military Intel. and others being involved.

Remember the Cathloic Priest that went to jail protesting the "School of the Americas" where most of the Central and South American dictators and military went to school to learn these exact tactics to maintain order in their countries....

So there is a lot more to this then these soldiers in the photos... this type of operation has been going on for a long, long time.

I'm not wanting to judge the soldiers here, but they were very dumb and stupid to get involved in picture taking sessions without thinking of the future... and who would see them, like THE W.W.W. INTERNET.

You can't win a war against terror with love.

This response submitted by Gord on 05/08/2004 at 03:20. ( )

A Canadian says;
"God bless America and all the American and British soldiers fighting for a safer world today".

Shame on the gutless wounders who are not able to stomach scenes of what it takes to get life saving information from enemy soldiers and spies."

Shame on the media that profits from sensationalzing the story. They are not so naive to think this is not happening in any war, but they twist it and warp it and spin a tale of woe to gain sales of papers and air time on TV. More sensation = more viwers = more money and that is what the news is all about. To paint the soldiers doing the "softening" of prisoners for interogation as criminal is absurd in the context of what freedoms enimies are doing daily.

I feel sorry for the American soldiers who are ordered to carry out the interogations because it is brutal and will cost them dearly for the rest of thier lives. They do the job because it is impoitant and can save lives.

You must fight terror with punishment of the terrorist communities responsible with actions so severe that the terrorist movements will loose popular support and be forced to pull back and re think the tactics they use. The terrorist's will not use diplomacy as long as they can kill and maim innocent victims without punishment. We should not have to see any pisoners of war abused but if that is what it takes to find hard targets to hit back at, then I am all for it. Prisoners must be interogated for valuable information, this has always gone on and always will, because it will save many innocent lives from being caught in pooly targeted military strikes. No one in the American forces wants to hurt innocent civilans, and lives are saved and wars are made shorter by using these harsh interigation methods. To the credit of the Americans, they are not known to kill the prisoners after interogation like other nations soldiers do. The prisoners in the photos likely will get a hot bath and a meal after they spill thier guts. Ten years from now half of them may landed imigrants in the good old USA, because Americans are really way to kind.

PS if any of the highly educated find erros in my spelling or grammar an think that is grounds to discredit my opinion,

I say - bite me!

my iraq

This response submitted by oceanstar on 05/08/2004 at 07:22. ( )

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Liberal? Do you mean humanist?

This response submitted by Jay Trout on 05/08/2004 at 10:14. ( )

These are some of the most ignorant suggestions I've heard in recent weeks. Though I must say, a large percentage of our population is seemingly incapable of critical thought.

What the hell did Iraq have to do with 911? Nothing. Bush himself admitted that last September.

Besides, any third grader can tell you that the invasion would simply create more terrorism. This was simply a matter of the neocons picking a weak target to back up their assertion that they will use force whenever and wherever they feel like it, for any or no reason (refer to National Security mission statement from 2002).

It should be obvious to everyone that our country somehow managed to put fascists in power. Liberal? I'd call it refusal to ignore the obvious.

Jay Trout is right

This response submitted by Piscean on 05/08/2004 at 12:34. ( )

Jay Trout definitely got it right.

The one weapon the terrorists have that we will never defeat is the will to give up their own lives for the cause. It is different from being in the army - there you may survive - flying a plane into a building will kill you for sure. That is certain death and yet they are still willing. The only way to stop this is to make life better for them in their homelands. This requires investment not invasion.

So bomb them, shoot them, torture them all you like, this just fuels the anger (look how angry you all are at the World Trade Center - all of a sudden America is willing to risk its youth by sending them to war). Has it helped? Now Iraq definitely hates the US. Do all Iraqis hate the US? Probably not, but all of Northern Ireland didn't hate the UK, all of Palestine doesn't hate Israel, but enough do and a passionate few is all it takes.

You may not be able to fight terrorism with love, but hate is definitely less effective in the long run.

More Right-Wing nonsense

This response submitted by Linux Rules on 05/08/2004 at 22:00. ( )

This war is just another example of all the idiotic things the U.S. Oil companies will do to get their hands on more oil.
This girlie-boy, GW Bush with a Napoleon complex should go back to doing the one-and-only thing he was good at... being a cheerleader!

New Army Policy : I Ask / You Tell

This response submitted by JP on 05/09/2004 at 17:43. ( )

Perhaps we should rethink our don't ask / don't tell policy. Let's screen for sadists & homosexuals and keep them out of the inmate showers.


This response submitted by MIKE on 05/10/2004 at 12:00. ( )

I simply cannot believe the comments made in favor of this kind of abuse ! We are a great Country of civilized people, when we stoop to this level we are no different from the people we are supposed to be opposing. After all did we not say Saddam Hussein was a torturer and murderer, how are we any different when we condone such actions ? Hell maybe because of Sept 11 we should just destroy all of the middle east and kill them all, Think about it, this is hatred, exactly the same mindset as the terrorist. We are no longer defending our country we are seeking revenge.

US started it. US to blame

This response submitted by Neutral on 05/10/2004 at 12:18. ( )

If some people or soldiers in Iraq have done wrong to American invaders (YES, that's what they really are), this does not mean US military has green light to abuse whoever Iraqi that falls in their hands.
Somebody did you wrong? Punish that somebody and him alone.
You are the great leader of the world aren't you. Aren't you supposed to set the example?

Yet, after all, what the hell are US army forces doing on the opposite side of the globe on people who NEVER EVER caused any harm to any american anywhere before the US invasion on Iraq.

Yes Mike This is still America

This response submitted by Steve on 05/11/2004 at 11:05. ( )

Just not a weak America!

We cannot feel sorry for these animals they kill and torture our young men and women. Come on Mike these are animals that rape and kill their own women and children without remorse. Now I do not agree with torture. They should just line them up and shoot them dead. We must be willing to do whatever it takes to destroy these evil animals.
I sat here in my office and watched "Live" the World Trade Centers fall not 10 miles from my home. This is "WAR" and all is fair in love and war. We need to exterminate these animals so the bleeding heart liberals can practice the free speech awarded to them from the blood of our young men and women fighting and dying for it. Also please keep in mind that the people responsible are not the fine men and women fighting for our freedom but their superior officers.
And Neutral why don't you move to Iraq if you love it os much!


This response submitted by MIKE on 05/11/2004 at 11:47. ( )

Steve I respect your opinion, Just so you know I greatly love this country,I am a Vietnam vet and damn proud of this country, thats why I believe we are above this type of behavior. The only comments I have is I am just a little puzzled at the fact you call them murderers than you say kill them all! Who is the murderer ? I Guess if all is fair in war than Hitler was ok to do what he did as well after all he thought of the Jews as animals. This is exactly the double standard comments I was talking about, your comments just calirfy what I said. when we act as our enemies we become our enemies.
You are driven by hatred not by a desire to see the world at peace you want revenge against the entire world for the acts of a few. Sept 11 was a sad day for our Country but how many arabs do we kill to satisfy your need for revenge?

Your Missing the point these crapskins are subhuman..

This response submitted by Frank and to the point. on 05/11/2004 at 15:46. ( )

You got that right MIKE!

This response submitted by Jose on 05/11/2004 at 16:45. ( )

I agree 100% with Mike. We Americans, do not realize that we are fighting hatretage with hate. Those Arabs are fighting in order to seek revenge for the mothers and childrens they have lost in the Isarel-Palestine war, were US has played an important role, and US, is fighting in order to seek revenge for the thousands lost in the 9/11 atacks (although I don't see how Iraq had anything to do with that) So in a few words, WE ARE FIGHTING OURSELVES, So stop being naive and childish and start looking at the different points of views. There are no animals here, we are all humans. If we were animals, we would not be fighting each other.

You poor hate filled person

This response submitted by Me on 05/11/2004 at 17:00. ( )

I wonder how you must feel, apparently living in a world were you are always right, and the world is always wrong?

I sorrow for your poor poor view of the rests of the world, living in an ivory american tower like you do. It sure DOES show that you were in the military - it seems that there is nothing but hate hate hate spewing from your lips. As well as justifications like "How would YOU feel if...".

<laughter> Yeah, right.

I suggest you grow up, sir, and learn that there are two sides to every conflict - and both sides think their side is right. Think that, perhaps, there is TRUTH on each side.

Have you ever tried to understand a viewpoint that is not your own? I mean, really UNDERSTAND it - and not just listen to and believe what the media feeds you.

I don't side with al-Qaeda, but they DO have some interesting views concerning Americasn Hegimony.

Have you ever tried to look at (and tried to UNDERSTAND) the OTHER side, or are you just too busy berating it, because it's not yours? (and yours, it seems, is RIGHT - practically the Word of God)

Someone with a larger view of the issues, IMHO,

Be it Liberal or Conservative, America is still our home

This response submitted by I am a Marine on 05/11/2004 at 18:24. ( )

You all made cogent points in this matter. I will agree with the suggestion that the media is in this story of Iraqi prisoners' abuse for the ratings and the revenues it can generate them. They are the ones responsible for sensationalizing this story and made it what it is. The free world media! God bless the free world!

I will add that the Arab world's hypocrisy knows no bound. They are the first to cry outrage when these photographs surfaced. They say they treat their dead with respect. Well, I didn't hear them cry outrage when the charred, dismembered bodies of the four American contract workers were dragged through the streets of Fallujah. I didn't hear them cry outrage on 9/11/2001 when the images of people jumping to their deaths, pieces of bodies being pulled from WTC rubbles were broadcasted across the Arab world. I didn't hear them cry outrage when their kind seize civilians, torture, kill and even beheaded in the name of Allah for all to see. Instead the Arab world rejoices. You know what they say? They say Allahu Akbar! What kind of god is their god?

I am not going to stand in judgment of these people because I will have to be one of a pure heart to do so and we as human beings are far from pure of heart. Moreover, like most veterans, I resent what these people stand for. I have been there and I have seen it. You cannot conquer evil with love. In all cases in the past and recent, one only win war with war. Hitler's descendants would be ruling the world now if we had not taken the war to him. I do not, in the slightest, condone what our soldiers did to those Iraqi prisoners. They should have known better.

One of the important things learned on the first day at boot camp is the Geneva convention. It is on every military ID card. If those soldiers were following orders, and I suspect they were, that was one order they should have disobeyed.

But while we rebuke and punish these men and women that perpetrated the abuse, let us not forget we have hundreds of thousands of other men and women serving their country with courage and honor. And while we exercise what our country stands for, what this men and women loses their lives daily to protect, let us not allow our opinions to cast divisions within us. Let us stand together as Americans and work to defeat the enemies of our way of life!

God Bless America, oh and the entire world!

Sorry - it's my first one and it's a long one

This response submitted by Jerry on 05/11/2004 at 19:09. ( )

Hi everyone, Jerry here from the UK.
I have two points to make, although they both boil down to "human nature"...

1. bombing a town (or nation) into the dirt will never be a good way to tackle the terrorism of a fanatical few. There will always be fanatical people in the world (e.g. racial or religious fanatics). We have them in the UK and you have them in the US - no nation is immune. But they become really dangerous when there's an environment where the fanatics can recruit normal peaceful people to their cause. Just like in Northern Ireland, or in South Africa, the Israeli-Palestinian situation is creating the kind of environment where a few fanatics (Al Qaeda, Al-Aqsa Martyrs etc) can say "You see what happens? Israel invades Palestinian land and America supports them. America supports Israel in their war against muslims". I'm not saying they're right, but it's a gift to them and suddenly a bigger proportion of the Arab world starts thinking "The evidence is there. We've got to do something to stop this."

2. what would you do if a foreign power invaded your land? I'd fight. Every man I know would fight. Women too. Americans would do the same. Canadians would do the same. Everybody would do the same. Why would Iraqis feel any differently? Sure, they must be glad to be rid of Saddam, but do you think they would choose to be 'occupied' by the US and UK? If an invader of your country was then seen to be abusing their powers, you'd fight even harder, to make it as painful as possible for them and drive them out.

This is what's happening now in Iraq. And I guess I'm saying that we should think for a minute "If a nation invaded my country and did these things, how would I respond?" It seems like neither the American or British governments did much of that kind of planning before we went in, and we"re reaping the problems now.

Peace can never come by a cycle of retribution. That just creates even easier arguments for the fanatics (on both sides) to rally normal decent people to their banner, because it seems that no other banner remains.

So call for justice for the gulty, but don"t call for indiscriminate revenge. And while we"re waiting for justice, remember that ordinary peace-loving people in the Middel East feel they"re waiting for justice too.

exiting the moral high ground

This response submitted by david springer on 05/11/2004 at 19:12. ( )

i think the biggest joke of all is thatall the good reasons to invade iraq turned out to be a snow job by the bush administration.then lacking a concrete reason to invade we are told it was the right thing to do and how the people of iraq would feel so fortunate that the u.s. delivered them from tyranny.i suppose those photos illustrate how to deliver a people from oppression. as far as im concerned this p.o.w. incedent has destroyed what little credability we had left in the eyes of the world.

exiting the moral high ground

This response submitted by david springer on 05/11/2004 at 19:12. ( )

i think the biggest joke of all is thatall the good reasons to invade iraq turned out to be a snow job by the bush administration.then lacking a concrete reason to invade we are told it was the right thing to do and how the people of iraq would feel so fortunate that the u.s. delivered them from tyranny.i suppose those photos illustrate how to deliver a people from oppression. as far as im concerned this p.o.w. incedent has destroyed what little credability we had left in the eyes of the world.

Should have nuked these Ragheads when we had the chance!

This response submitted by Shawn on 05/11/2004 at 21:33. ( )

These Bastards have had an open invitation to come to our country and make a better life for themselves for years. They took full advantage of our system to get free educations, obtain small business loans, and thrive in a country that has for the most part placed these idiots welfare above tried and true Americans. In return we get to pay more taxes so they can continue to live and thrive in "OUR" country and screw us anytime they get the chance.

Sick and Tired

This response submitted by Ashlee on 05/11/2004 at 22:20. ( )

I am really sick and tired of the selected emphasis the media puts onto the television! 99% of people are basing their opions on what the media shows, and im sorry but the media twists and turns things so bad no one knows exactly which way is up! I for one know there is a lot more to the story than what the media portrays, and the media I think is not doing anyone any kind of justice! The media shows us what they want us to see, and forms our opinions for us! To hell with them, and God Bless all the troops that are putting their lives in danger to help us, and Way to go George Bush for being one of the only presidents to have the balls enough to do what you say you are gonna do! Great Job

Short Memory

This response submitted by Paul on 05/12/2004 at 01:28. ( )

People seem to forget why these people are in prison in the first place! If that's all that has happened to them they should thank their lucky stars. These people are lower than pond scum! take the 4 men who were shot, burned, bashed with pipes then dragged through the streets! then torn apart and hung from power poles and a bridge! These are not human beings ! they are sick animals! They are still living in the 900AD era
They should pull everyone out and nuke a city! agression is all they understand and regardless of what is said this will go on like the palistine saga. So if America is going to be blamed for being bad they may as well be bad and be done with it!

The Blind leading the Blind

This response submitted by Lightspeed on 05/12/2004 at 01:38. ( )

All of this talk about peace is just a little naive. The Muslim world does'nt desire peace. The Palestinians have openly declared that their objective is the total destruction of Israel. Islam has a long history of conversion by military force. In our own time, they have declared open war against all non-believers. A cleric on Aljazeera is encouraging their young men to seek situations that lead to death. I believe we have a moral obligation to assist them and give them every opportunity to reach their goal. Their fighting men have no honor. They cover their faces to conceal their identities. At least if they die naked, Allah will be able to recongnize them.

I thought ....

This response submitted by DamionAnthony on 05/12/2004 at 02:20. ( )

This is how common sense is abused in this country. The people in that prison had absolutely nothing to do with what happened in Fallujah with those contractors. I guess "these people" or "Ragheads" are all alike.

Long history of military force?

This response submitted by Clark Kent on 05/12/2004 at 02:26. ( )

Waitaminute, wasn't the longest and bloodiest wars in the name of GOD for conversion and vanquishing of "heathens" started by the Catholic Church and it's minions? Oh yea, I guess you don't get a whole city like the Vatican, by being "Mr. Nice Guys".

Long history of conversion by force?

This response submitted by What's that on 05/12/2004 at 02:27. ( )

Waitaminute, wasn't the longest and bloodiest wars in the name of GOD for conversion and vanquishing of "heathens" started by the Catholic Church and it's minions? Oh yea, I guess you don't get a whole city like the Vatican, by being "Mr. Nice Guys".

Media influences

This response submitted by JeeCee on 05/12/2004 at 09:02. ( )

Dear all (and Ashlee)

I agree that our opinion is for (more than) 99% being influenced by the media - it's seems to work for Ashlee as well, convinced Bush has balls to act. Well, as far as my concern, I have never seen his balls (even not in the media) First want to see The American Troops act in heroic ways with my own eyes before I believe it.
I have experienced myself that the US has a very strickt policy in what they show their (US)viewers and what not!

Moral Obligation

This response submitted by JeeCee on 05/12/2004 at 10:55. ( )

I just feel the need to response ones more. It is about moral obligation. Who has invented the fact that there is only one right moral standard? It would be nice if we are able to accept that people may feel different towards what is morally right or not. Let's not think that there is one standard, and oh what a coincidence, it is ours.
Islam may have declared open war against non-believers, but we have also declared open war against people who don't live their life's the way WE think is best for them (and we are acting on it).
You would not like it if people from outside came and tell you how to live your life and you have to accept that you will never understand other cultures completely since you have not been grown up there.
I always feel pretty arrogant to say: "it is our duty to teach them how to do this and that - to fight with honor. Our goals might not be theirs.


This response submitted by Think Twice on 05/12/2004 at 11:31. ( )

This is not about GOALS.
This is about doing justice to those who inflict INjustice. This is about doing justice to those who killed thousands at 9/11. This is about doing justice to those who kill thousand in other terroists act. This about doing justice to those who kill and unmercifully torture their own countrymen. We are not trying to change their way of life were telling them not to change ours.

dont like it, get out

This response submitted by keel on 05/12/2004 at 11:50. ( )

i think that we should step up and take the side of our country. sure, the photos are bad, but the iraqis do worse things than this. Remember the twin towers? im sick of people who don't support america in this war. if you don't like what america is doing, go live somewhere else. i support my country's army in whatever they do, whether i fully agree with it or not.

USA - get lost

This response submitted by Tony B on 05/12/2004 at 12:08. ( )

To the idiots who seem to think the Middle East should be wiped out ...
Who invited you to Iraq to degrade human beings? If you couldn't give a crap about Iraqis, why did you want Saddam out? If you have such high morals, how do you justify treating humans like animals?
The revenge for American arrogance in world affairs, in foreign religions and cultures which exist for centuries is coming up and biting it in the ass.
America as a nation has shown itself to not give a damn about Arabs. So where's the surprise that an Arab might think of an American as a piece of crap.
Live by the sword and you'll die by it. Unfortunately, what your politicians fail to see is that against a superpower, people will attack the weakest targets - innoncents. After all with America's wayward guided missiles, all they've been doing is killing a random mix of targets and civilians. If you expect Iraqis to show respect to innocents, then you shouldn't have bombarded their homes. That behaviour calls for vengeance. Open your eyes - Nick Berg's blood is on Bush and his administrations hands.
War is a dirty thing and in Iraq, America started it.

Overstaying our welcome

This response submitted by Pro-America on 05/12/2004 at 13:52. ( )

First let me say that after doing some reading on the recent attempts at genocide in the world, killing them all is not a solution.
I do believe the invasion was necissary to remove Sadam from power. Terrorist Organizations are much more complex than any of you realize. They require a few very skilled and trained leaders and some kind of major funding. Sadam was a supporter in both aspects. I think we should have left after he was overthrown. Let the Heathens figure it out for themselves. Yes I said heathens, the displays that have been mentioned in other posts are a perfect example. Prisoner abuse/humiliation has gone on for generations. No country has been above it, and as long as you have 18-25 year old soldiers running POW stations it will continue. Does that make it right? Unless you have been IN combat you really shouldn't voice your opinion.


This response submitted by Sammy on 05/12/2004 at 15:26. ( )

So many of you Americans live in a box. You are just as fanatical as the Islam extremists - right wing and Christian. You believe you are right, that you are bringing freedom to the world. Do you call the sick torture of those Iraqis freedom? Luckily here in Europe with have a rich history and diverse environment to learn from. America is souless. America training of troops is also fundermentally different: recruits are broken down and then remade how the military sees fit - to follow orders. In the process common sence is lost. In Europe they build on the recruits initiative, and so the soldiers are not so gun-ho. Luckily here in England we have fair newsreporting, no FOX iraqi-freedom propoganda which rarely showed the dead iraqi children we saw. no, and we see reports of what the Americans are like - COWBOYS, - one commander chewing on a cigar and uttering comtent at iraqi police officers.
You see, what u Americans so dramatically fail to realise is we are all in the same boat together. America consumes 20% of the worlds resourses, yet is only 4% of its population. Do you really think you have God on your side....can you not see through that? So much evil has been commited in the name of goodness. I wonder how many of you have seen Bowling for Columbine by Michael Moore, and how many of you have truely faced up to your fear. America has created this so called terrorism, and it is dragging the world into deeper crisis - but hey, you need that to justify your huge spending on arms to defend yourself. sick.
I do not hate Americans, i would not waste my energy hating anyone. but you are a very dangerous breed of are consuming....destroying...and you will take everyone else with you.
All entirely unavoidable.
Oh, and where are the weapons of mass destruction....the weapons the US sold to Iraq in the first place! ?
I'm bored now
good luck people, good luck

someone is going to pay heavily for all of this, . . .

This response submitted by elton on 05/12/2004 at 15:45. ( )

This can't possibly end well. With the daily killing of Iraqis by an American occupation army, someone is going to pay. The world has never been a more precarious place. As Ken Livingston said during the visit of George W. to Great Britain: The American President is the greatest threat to the planet we've ever known.

Put on your seatbelts folks, we're going for a ride.

Nothing has worked on me!

This response submitted by Ashlee on 05/12/2004 at 16:12. ( )

JeeCee, Although I am touched in the concern you put into my ideas, I am a bit confuse as to why you think the media influenced me in my right to have faith in our president! Like it or not we were attacked more than once if you can remember and it is about time someone put their foot down! Now I may not know it all, I am only 22 years old, but believe me I know alot more that you people may think I do! I have faith in our president, that is my right as a human being! He took action when action was necessary!


This response submitted by Chuck on 05/12/2004 at 17:28. ( )

Listen, half these Iraqies are just cicilians that didnt do anything. And you cant flatten a friggin country! what about all the inocent people? What if they flattend amaerica just becaus of snipers, bombers and so on.....

It's all justified

This response submitted by dt on 05/12/2004 at 17:31. ( )

It's OK, you can do what the natives do in their country. Iraqi people are used to being beaten. Don't worry about the torture they're used to it. It's like a way of life to them. Now that Saddam has gone someone has to fill the gap and the americans are doing a fine job. Next they will have exterminatin camps like the ones in Germany in WW2. They'll be cramming them in there day and night. They can then import the Palestinians and anyone who even looks arabic and really tidy up this part of the world. When it's over have a rest for a couple of years and then start on Turkey and work your way through Europe. Then we will all be American, going to the 'movies' outside in a muddy field in Blackpool. Eating steaks and drinking root bear until were like real Americans, big and fat and think were God and can do anything we want. We can even start talking with a stupid accent and driveing cars the size of buses just so we can waist as much of our planets resources as possible. If anyone has an attitude or an opinion pull out your gun and kill them, simple as that. If it's a group of people, nuk them! and the city where they live. This time next year we'll be millionaires.

The true cost of war.

This response submitted by Robert on 05/12/2004 at 17:57. ( )

I find it rather alarming the amount of right wing rhetoric that seems to find its way onto the internet. When I was 23 years old I was a Marine rifleman who fought in Desertstorm, today I am just another 36 year old blue collar guy who just shakes his head at the brutality of war. It is even more brutal when the war appears to be fought for no real reason other than this word you use like toiletpaper "FREEDOM". If freedom was the issue how come we still do business with countries like China. Where was the American government when the former Yugoslavia needed our help. We waited and then decided to do something , a little too late. I am haunted by the pictures of U.S. coffins (forbidden by President Bush) that have surfaced recently. There is a great importance in showing the flag draped coffins of our war dead. It shows the cost of this war and perhaps it can show us that real people continue to die everyday. "If we remain silent; your silence is your consent to this war and waste of american lives" "I love my country but I abhor my goverment" " What the hell does Iraq have to do with 911 anyways?" "BLIND FAITH IN YOUR SO CALLED GOVERNMENT WILL BRING BACK YOUR CHILDREN IN BODYBAGS".

America Boy

This response submitted by John Osenga on 05/12/2004 at 18:30. ( )

I am sorry to say this but what us americans are doing is totaly wrong. We shouldnt be in Iraq in the first place. All we want is oil so our fudgeen suvs and big trucks get a full tank of gas for $1.00 a gallon. It isnt the Iraq's fault for the killing of Americans but American's fault for our own fudgeen deaths. fudge the Bush administration. Vote for Kerry.


This response submitted by Samantha on 05/12/2004 at 19:07. ( )

I am more than aware Americans often take their rights and advantages for granted sometimes, but the idea that you all think we are conceited at heart is ill-founded and wrong.

Sammy: To you I have no respect. Firstly, insulting a nation of people on the basis of a few you saw on T.V. makes you the ignorant one, not us 'cowboys.' I agree, the reasons for going to war with Iraq were not right, but I do not think it shouldn't have been done. We found our weapon of mass destruction in the form of Saddam. Mass graves, child labor camps, religious persicution.. the few ruling the many. No, we have no right to control other people, but we have the right to displace an injust ruler, an opressor. By our beliefs and that of John Locke. You pride yourself on your rich heritage, when ours is no less so for it's shortness. We may be but a small step in history, but it is as great a one as yours.

For those with complaints about the soldiers and the Iraqi prisoners: No, I do not think it is right, and should not have been done, but atleast something is being done to rectify it, where in other places and times, it would have been ignored or encouraged.

And the comparison of Americans to radical muslims, I see no paralell. I know the news is slanted, but there are nowhere near as many heinous acts towards other peoples and races as their are in the Muslim world. I insult not their religion, and I do not think the Koran commends their behavior, but fools see what they want to see, and act as they think is right. We don't murder people for being different, for being in the wrong place, for being of a different colour and religion. How can we, when so few Americans even can trace their roots to this country?

I ask those of you that are not Americans, and even those that are, that you not judge us by the biased image shown in news and political arenas.

The Iraqis were not responsible for 9/11 - even Bush says so

This response submitted by Jerry on 05/12/2004 at 19:09. ( )

It's ridiculous to group all Iraqis together and say "We should shoot them all" "We should nuke them" or whatever.

Firstly, the whole world knows that Muslim extremists did those terrible things on 9/11, but it doesn't mean every Muslim is an extremist who supports what happened. Does every American hold the same opinions? Does every American act the same way? Of course not, and neither does every Brit, nor every Iraqi, nor every Christian, nor every Muslim.

Secondly, and even more importantly, Iraq was NOT responsible for 9/11. It was only the American administration that seriously tried to claim that was true - even the British government didn't try to make that claim and, God knows, they groped for pretty much any excuse they thought they might get away with. But even President Bush has since gone public and admitted that Iraq was not responsible. He didn't whisper it in private - he said it on US national and international television! Your own president has admitted that Iraq was not involved in 9/11.

Think Twice - what you're proposing is blanket revenge on large groups of people, the vast majority of whom are innocent of any the things you mention. Some of the people on whom you want to inflict your "justice" could be the very people who suffered the torture that you claim to avenge. That won't do anything but make the situation even worse.

keel, supporting your country's army is fine - I support mine too. But that doesn't mean they were sent there for a fair and valid reason, especially if the 'reason' for going into Iraq was 9/11.

It Doesnt Matter

This response submitted by Robert on 05/12/2004 at 19:58. ( )

What ever excuse Bush used to invade Iraq, the bottom line is that Saddam Hussein and his sons killed and tourtured MANY more people than the US have "tourtured". It is true that the humiliation of the prisoners was uncalled for however it was only a few ignorant people in our armed forces that chose to take things into their own hands and now this is the basis of judgement for the whole time we have been here. No one could have predicted all the rebellion that has been going on.

Plus Bush never said Iraq was to blame but that Saddam had ties to many extremist groups including al Queda and was financially backing them. Plus non-compliance with UN sanctions.

Any way you look at it the world is a better place without pigs like Saddam and his regime, and i commend President Bush for having the balls to liberate the iraqis.


This response submitted by wmbg on 05/12/2004 at 21:02. ( )


This is WAR, not a civalized group meeting...

This response submitted by Proud to be an American! on 05/13/2004 at 00:33. ( )

I just want to say that I am all for Bush and Rumsfeld and totally agree with the first post. These horrible things that we have done, dont even compare to what they have not only done to us but to their own people, and to say we should be above that... tell me how you would feel if you were put in those soldiers place, doing what their superiors said because thats their job, its what they signed up for, to take orders and take care of business.

I'd like to know how many of these people who are saying how wrong and bad this is/was were there, watching there boot camp buddies and long time friends, the guys they bunked with, being shot in the genitals, watching them get drug through a street, knowing that these same people wouldnt hesitate to kill our women and children, hell they kill their own....

Then YOU have the power and the OK from your superior officers to do whatever it takes. Not one person that has posted can say without a doubt that they wouldnt do the exact asme thing, possibly worse.No one can say that until they have been there, witnessed with their own eyes the things these soldiers witnessed, then have the power to get all the revenge you can get out of them.

All these terrible things everyones so upset about should almost be somewaht expected , we are at war, no its not WWII but it could very easily turn into WWIII, Do you think the men who are still alive from WWII feel bad for the Iaqis ? I seriousl doubt it, its a friggin WAR, anyting goes, the IRAQIs showed us that!

As an American ex-patriate...

This response submitted by jetlag on 05/13/2004 at 03:18. ( )

living in the UK, this whole fiasco is just one more nail in the coffin of the American image abroad.

Do you have any concept how hard it is to be an American outside of America? I live with a DAILY torrent of nationalistic abuse and this has just made my life worse.

I agree that far worse human rights atrocities have been committed by other nations (or even our own hundreds of years ago) and this is small fry compared to what Pot Pot, Idi Amin, Hitler, Sadam Hussein, Gadaffi et all got up to, but we're supposed to be BETTER THAN THAT! I want to see images of our troops LOVED and HONOURED for liberating the people of Iraq; for acts of gallantry and heroism; I want my fellow Americans to be philanthropists with consciences; I want "the land of the free and the home of the brave" to mean something, not to just pay lip service to what our ancestors did 250 years ago.

Is sexual assault any worse a crime because it's not as bad as what a serial rapist would do? "Well, your honour, I only raped her a LITTLE bit?" or "Gimme a break, at least I didn't cut her head off like that other guy did last year?"

They were wrong. Pure and simple.

To all the European posters here

This response submitted by A.C. on 05/13/2004 at 04:17. ( )

You have just as much blood on your hands as we do so get over it . By sitting on the sidelines and thinking that you are safe , you are writing your own obituary . Infidels , all of you and your true color is yellow ! I have no use for you as you cannot be trusted . Evil in this world has to be dealt with and we are . By doing nothing as you are you , you become the easy , soft targets . Plus , your civilians are unarmed , how conveinent for the terrorists .

Remember this -- when you have an enemy that is willing to die for thier cause and you are not even willing to kill for your survival ..... the enemy will surely win. - Micheal Savage 2004

"Unless you've been IN combat don't voice your opinion"

This response submitted by Tony B on 05/13/2004 at 05:00. ( )

Some interesting posts since ... I wonder how long George Bush spent in combat - obviously enough time flying over Texas to know it was right to go after Saddam Hussein and let all hell break loose.
This no-tolerance approach to terrorism doesn't work. You've got to look at the causes of it. And you've got to take some brave steps that are hard to swallow. In Northern Ireland, terrorists and murderers are now free to walk the streets and some are even elected members of parliament. Their atrocities may not have been on the scale of 911 but some were definitely on the scale of Nick Berg's assassins.
The cause of a lot of this terrorism is that the USA and the West have nor respect for Arabic religion, Islamic law (which governs about 20% of the world's population) and no respect or interest in the wellbeing of Arabs in third world countries such as Iraq. The sanctions placed on Saddam were implicit murder of the weakest. And let's not forget that the USA were instrumental in putting Saddam in the position he was in as Iraqi leader and sold him a lot of theses chemical and bio weapons that were the "real reason behind the war". It was ok for him to use these on Iranians and his own Iraqis but create the threat of using them on the USA and the West and it's time for bombs.
So on past evidence of what the US has done in, can you really blame anyone for being sceptical? Based on past evidence a lot of young Americans will die, a lot of innocent civilians on the war territory will die, and extremism will flourish.
The best way to change a person's mind is through dialogue and assistance towards a better, more independent future. Don't discard these elements as these are part of the US plan for Iraq. They just come after the bombs and the bodybags.
No wonder it's hard for Americans abroad these days. But I have the impression that a lot of them either support their government's strategy or are not overly concerned with resisting it. The US attitude that "we know best what's good for everybody" makes my stomach turn. You're not different from anybody else. From the other side, you're the extremists, and the strongest extremists. I think it will be a long legacy for American civilians. Rule within your own boundaries.

Can't think of a title

This response submitted by Jerry on 05/13/2004 at 07:09. ( )

To Proud to be an American!, I accept most of what you say -- I don't know how I'd react if I'd watched those disgusting things happen to my buddies. Maybe I'd want vengeance too. It's well known that war leads to things like this (which is one reason why we don't entrust 'justice' to the people who have been personally and badly affected), so history teaches us that we probably should expect it. Does that mean you also expect that revenge is taken and an innocent guy is beheaded? And if we do expect those things in the stress and distress and violence of war, does that mean we should accept them? If so, how do we ever stop them?

To A.C. -- yes you're probably right. We have just as much blood on our hands. Are you arguing that we should say (to ourselves and the world) "Yes, we have blood on our hands. Tough crap! Get over it!" If that's what you're saying, I disagree. We should question what we do in times of war just as much as in times of peace. And I don't see that we (the UK) are "sitting on the sidelines". As for "thinking we are safe", we know from the Northern Ireland situation that troubles don't respect national boundaries (paramilitary attacks didn't just stay within Northern Ireland). Other European countries also know what it's like to live with terrorist attacks. Italy, Germany, Spain -- they have all experienced terrorism, so they all know how fragile personal safety can be. I do agree (and nobody here has disagreed) that evil must be dealt with. What I'm saying is that we can't "deal with evil" by indiscriminate vengeance against a whole nation, because we'd be inflicting it on innocent, non-evil people. The rest of your points (e.g. all Europeans are yellow) are no more sensible than the UK guy who said that all America is soulless.

Finally, if Jetlag or any other American in the UK receives a torrent of abuse just because they're American, that is wrong and I apologise as a UK national. Nobody should ever be judged or abused just because of the country they come from.

Still Media influenced

This response submitted by JeeCee on 05/13/2004 at 09:04. ( )

Dear Ashlee, It is not my intention to confuse you and I agree it is your right to have your own opinion. I'm glad - not being that old myself - that young people realize they are influenced by what Media (goverment) is feeding them. Just be careful, also Bush uses the Media to create a picture of himself, it is that picture where you put your faith in. What made you think it was time to take must have been based on what the TV/News (in other words the goverment/people in charge) showed you and thus not necessarily the truth. Again I have no intention to insult or confuse you - I also realize I base my opinion on what is shown to me. I have never seen anything there personally, which makes it dificult to judge.

UK Civilians unarmed?

This response submitted by Jetlag on 05/13/2004 at 09:24. ( )

A.C. has clearly never been to Brixton

to 'Cant think of a Title'

This response submitted by Proud to be an American! on 05/13/2004 at 18:08. ( )

You ask, if we do expect those things in the stress and distress and violence of war, does that mean we should accept them? If so, how do we ever stop them? ~ We should accept these things, if youre not accepting these things than your in denial, and no i dont think a country who wants to cover their eyes and live in denial is going to do one damn bit of good. Its tough to say we should accept such dispicable crimes, but we have to, its there, its happening, and its not going to go away until we DO accept it and try to finish what was started, and as for that Q, who started it, I think we both( America and Iraq) started it, but WE need to finish it. The longer this goes on, the worse we look, I am not ashamed one bit at anything we have done, but I also realize how other people look at us.

When I see other people in other countries

This response submitted by A.C. on 05/13/2004 at 20:33. ( )

showing hate for us Americans , it makes me smile and think of the words Jesus spoke to his deciples when they were conceren over the hatred of Jesus and he said " always remember , they hated me first "


This response submitted by american on 05/13/2004 at 20:47. ( )

what the hell is this crap! "the Americans are garbage!", " the Americans are torturing our men" , " Sadam was a good leader" My ass! Think about what happened to that poor American who got is Fu**in head off when he was alive? The Iraqui soldiers are garbage and pigs who should be sloughterd!


This response submitted by american on 05/13/2004 at 20:50. ( )

what the hell is this crap! "the Americans are garbage!", " the Americans are torturing our men" , " Sadam was a good leader" My ass! Think about what happened to that poor American who got is Fu**in head off when he was alive? The Iraqui soldiers are garbage and pigs who should be sloughterd!


This response submitted by american on 05/13/2004 at 20:52. ( )

Just so all u little terrorist lovers know, ..........Sadam is in hell.

How hated who first

This response submitted by Europe on 05/14/2004 at 02:58. ( )

showing hate for them Iraqui's, it makes me smile and think of the words Jesus/Allah/... spoke to his deciples when they were conceren over the hatred of Jesus/Allah/... and he said " always remember , they hated me first "

I do NOT hate America - I don't like them doing their thing in other countries. Thinking, no convinced, that only their moral is the right one and pushing that one through other peoples throat.


This response submitted by Angel on 05/14/2004 at 03:12. ( )

Ohh, and your US soldiers are such angels !

I personally would prefer having my head sliced off, rather than 'dancing on bullets being shot in my legs - wasn't that a 'game' the US soldiers played in Vietnam with Vietnamese prisoners?

To Proud to be an American!

This response submitted by Jerry on 05/14/2004 at 04:19. ( )

When I asked if we should accept these things, I didn't mean acknowledging that they happen. I was asking whether we should say that these things are ok because these things happen in war. It seems like that's what a lot of the posts on here are saying - that because some Iraqis have done bad stuff, it's ok for coalition forces to do bad stuff too. That's the sentiment I disagree with. It doesn't lead anywhere good when, like you say, the longer this goes on, the worse America looks (and the UK -- we have our own stories of UK soldiers abusing Iraqi prisoners).

I'm not one of the people who says we should just pull out of Iraq right now. Yes, we do have to finish what we started, but in my opinion that doesn't involve trying to level a whole nation. That just polarises people towards the extreme views, which is the last thing we need. We need to be tough on people whose actions are hindering the process of ending the conflict, and we need to show patience and support for people who want to work towards it. And there are both kinds of people on both sides of this war.

I may not be around for a while. Have a good weekend everybody.

Response to Angel

This response submitted by TT on 05/14/2004 at 11:44. ( )

This is to the ignorant individual who goes by the name "Angel"
- You have no Idea what went on in Vietnam. Dont make childish remarks that are suppossed to suggest that you do! The attrocities of war are far beyond anything that you are capable of imagening.

- Do us a favor and leave
thank you

What made me think it was time to take action!

This response submitted by Ashlee on 05/14/2004 at 14:20. ( )

I base my opinion on history, and my beliefs! What made me think it was time to take action would have to be the fact that I have a cousin who worked 2 buildings down from the twin towers, Thank GOD she made it! It would also have to be the fact that NY is my home, and so there ya go! Be assured I am Not influenced by the media! You may try and disect my opinion and make a mockery of it, but be assured it still remains the same! Please don't let what I am about to say embarass or offend you, but seems to me you are one of those, like the media who tries to shove your opinion down the throat of others! Better luck next time Jee Cee

Response to Jerry

This response submitted by Proud to be an American! on 05/14/2004 at 17:41. ( )

Ok, I think we are almost on the same page here. I agree with you almost completely, I still just think ( in my opinion which truely doesnt mean squat)that yes, we should say that its ok, and I think that these times are extreme and therefore its going to take some form of extreme action to end it.

Response to Proud to be an American!

This response submitted by Jerry on 05/14/2004 at 18:01. ( )

Yep, almost the same page.
Who knows how it will all work out? Either way, I guess we all hope it ends soon, one way or another.

To any of you that have loved ones out there, best wishes to you all. And to them, of course.

OK, I really am going now. Take it easy.

Time to take action

This response submitted by JeeCee on 05/15/2004 at 05:40. ( )

How, if even Bush has said Iraq/Saddam have nothing to do with what happened on 11/9 in NY, can you justify that it is time to take action in Iraq?

I, and I think most of the people outside NY were in tears seeing the twin towers came down. I certainly did not agree with the people responsible for that disaster, claiming it was 'time to take action', because the US was interfering in their country. And the US was warned !


This response submitted by A.C. on 05/18/2004 at 10:27. ( )

In Somolyia (sp ? ) we did nothing and we were condemed for it . In Iraq , we took action and we are being condemed for it . Sounds like pure hate to me . Not directed at you specifically but I think you see where I am comming from. D*mned if you do and d*mned if you don't ! There is a big difference between pushing your ways onto a country and offering your ways and we offered them to Iraq and they want them ( except for the insurgents and radicals that don't for obvious and evil reasons ) oppressed people is a good thing to thier way of life. Give me an example of a free country in the middle east ? Do you think the people there do not want freedom ?

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