What has happened to people that care?

Submitted by MK on 05/28/2004 at 00:45. ( ) 64.12.116.209

As a taxidermist for around thirty years, I have some thoughts other than taxidermy and related business. I think some of you might know who I am. I have been discouraged from posting here because of a few troublemakers. But, I am a big boy and it was the best decision to abstain from attacking the popular people. Time heals and things are in the proper order. Perhaps it would be good to share some taxidermy knowledge and other tid-bits for everyone. Oh well, we'll see in the near future.

After reading the various posts on a variety of issues, I have many thoughts and questions on the behavior of people in general. Looking at the available data on people/Government/social factors/Power and control and past and current events, I wonder if people really care about their fellow human being anymore. What about justice? what about fair treatment and care of our own countrymen/women? Will we all give up our freedoms without a fight? What about some prime examples from the recent past:

It is disgusting to try to understand why so many people seem to think it was OK to kill, hurt, torture the children and adults at WACO. And it also points out the way "some" people think it was OK for a Government sniper to murder Randy Weavers unarmed wife while holding her baby, from only 100 yards away!

One thing is for sure, many people in this country have screwed up values and morals.

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our government

This response submitted by michael sestak on 05/28/2004 at 06:12. ( ) 205.188.116.139

did not kill, hurt or torture the children and adults at waco, how long was the stand-off?
what part of "we have arrest warrants" didn't the adults understand?
why didn't the armed adults let the women and children leave?
they held them as hostage thats why....
law enforcement simply can not walk away if you chose not to come out.
they negotiated...
but yes, the tank was excessive force and so was the 50 caliber weapon the folks inside had, they could have handled it in court.
or the law simply could have nabbed the guy at the store in town earlier that day.
but the government didnt kill the children, nor did they torture them.
>
>
but the sniper at ruby ridge who shot the woman with the baby was simply WRONG AS HELL, that whole procedure was flawed from the beginning and someone should have to pay if they haven't already..

just my opinion.


It does make you wonder does'nt it.

This response submitted by Mac on 05/28/2004 at 07:14. ( vabowhunter@worldnet.att.net ) 216.54.8.18

It appears that in the last 20 years or so, the whole social attitude and tolerance has changed. There have been some subtle, yet significant events which have ultimately changed the face and actions of this nation as a whole. Look back to the 50's and 60's where there always seemed to be a natural respect for your elders. You were taught to respect and not question, nor talk back and not to speak until spoken to by an adult. These actions have changed. The point and time I see where part of the change occured was when the child in Fla. sued their parents. This coupled with laws limiting the parents ability to "discipline" their children are just now really showing where, I believe, the country went wrong. The old cliche' of "Spare the rod and spoil the child" could not hold more truth. Does this mean I condone child abuse, certainly not, but I do believe that there should be allowed a good crack on the gludious maximus AKA the Arse or even a shot on the back of the thighs when a child is unrulely. I got many a shot with a belt, switch of my and my Fathers choice, paddle ect, ect, but I learned what was acceptable and what was not. Did I become a heathen and tear up the town? No, not at all, as a matter of fact it reinforced the the consequences of doing wrong. It's my opinion that this is the reason for what we have today in the way of the new work force that does not like authority, is rude and really does not care and expects everything to be given to them. To me it all goes hand in hand, no respect taught and reinforced in the home transfers to an unruley teenager who expects to be given everything which in turn results in a person in society who acts up against authority, does not take direction well, questions everything and is rude and unconciencious to people and events around them. That's the way I see it. It all boils down to respect for those who came before you. That's my humble opinion.
For what it's worth!
Mac


Another part of the problem is...

This response submitted by marty on 05/28/2004 at 08:53. ( ) 67.173.51.16

...the materialistic society we now live in. A saw a comedian the other day that talked about this. How nowadays kids have action packed 3D video games with all the bells and whistles. We had Pong - and we thought that was the coolest! Today they have custom legos for every possible scenario, we'd get those stupid paddles with the rubber ball attached that would invariably break off after the third whack! And we were HAPPY!

Look at these high schoolers nowadays. Prom is a 4 figure event for many. And their dimwit parents foot the bill!

I drove a beat up, three different colored Gremlin (X) with plaid interior that I worked to pay for when I got my first car. AND, I paid for the insurance and gas too. Most of my neighbors kids' get brand new cars and their parents foot the bill for that and the insurance to boot!

It's a me, me, me society nowadays folks. And that starts with the parents fulfilling their kids' every little desire for "toys", attempting to BUY their love. Where will it end?


Speaking of spoiling kids

This response submitted by Superpig on 05/28/2004 at 11:05. ( ) 64.12.116.139

My daughter graduated yesterday from middle school and when the ceremony was over there were actually several large limousines parked outside the entrance to pick up some graduates. I could not believe that parents would go to such an extreme for an event that should be expected: your child advancing to high school. By god that is rediculous. They did not graduate with a degree from Harvard or Yale, they only did what they suppose to do, to advance to high school. Even my daughter thought that was totally ridiculous and overboard.
But like you guys stated above, kids seem to expect all this fanfare nowadays for little work and effort. Get and A or your report card and expect to be paid. Hell I was glad to get and A or B to spare me a spanking for a failing grade.


Sorry to be the barer of bad news, but...........

This response submitted by Michelle W on 05/28/2004 at 12:46. ( blacktail21@hotmail.com ) 209.214.64.197

No body has the time to do anything about it. Everyone is so full of talk. Nothing is going to change until people realize this is everyones problem not just everyone elses. The way things are gong now nothing is going to change. Thats something to think about. How many people have seen a child throw a fit in a store and the parents give in? How many have said "if people would just spank their kids, young people wouldn't be like this? If I had kids they would deffinatly not act like the kids I see in the store. I don't care what the laws say if my kid acts up they will get a good WACK on the ass.


No wonder I love you women

This response submitted by George on 05/28/2004 at 13:00. ( georoof@aol.com ) 152.163.253.35

And we shoulda whacked Dr. Spock on the ass when he got old and retracted that advice from his baby books. I never believed in "Time Out". My kids knew they were warned when I looked at them misbehaving. When that didn't work, I practiced "Times UP!"


Welfare Has Also Perpetuated This Non-Caring Attitude IMO

This response submitted by cfm on 05/28/2004 at 13:27. ( ) 216.183.50.176

Literally paying people to sit on their arse to have kids, and the more kids the bigger the Welfare check. No Father figure, and generally a nonCaring mother... I feel this is what brought about all the gangs in our country... I don't know if Welfare is still paying out this way, or if they've changed by now. Regardless, all this in addition to what MK brought up, mainly regarding the middle class... it's sad and scary! Add to that, sending all our jobs overseas... the 'sucking sound' that Ross Perot said we'd hear as our jobs flew over the borders thanks to NAFTA and Bill Clinton... maybe we need a civil war to bring us back to reality...


Michelle, you said a mouth full in your first statement....

This response submitted by Mac on 05/28/2004 at 14:03. ( vabowhunter@worldnet.att.net ) 216.54.8.18

"Nobody has the time to do anything about it." When I moved to my home town after my stint in Uncle Sam's Canoe Club, I learned that first hand. The local government would hold their "open" meetings at times when the working class could not actively attend. My wife and I worked full time, 45 minutes from where we lived and just could not afford to take that time off in order to attend. It seems the average middle class working family (Husband & Wife) are working 4 times harder to live the lives our fathers and grandfathers lived when working by themselves, and because of this we cannot effectively fight nor protest effectively any of the bad policies the government comes up with. This appears to be a trickle down effect which eventually drips on us and others.(Ie the bad policy which came about from some busy body getting into affairs which did not concern them) George your right, Ol Dr. Spock coulda used a few swats from the "Board of Correction" just as those snot nosed little whiners you see everyday need. The best action I ever saw in that regard was on the news out of Erie, PA. In the local mall a parent was holding a child by the arm, and was giving the child a stern talking too and a couple of whacks on the behind. The Easter Bunny, yes I said the Easter Bunny, who was posing for pictures with the kiddies, thought she would get smart and stop this "abuse". Well in short, the bunny got knocked on her ass by the parent and when all was said and done the judge told her she needed to mind her business next time! Talk about your "About Dam Time" justice. This subject could go on & on but it is true, it all needs to start at the household level and some laws should probably be reviewed and amended. Do what you can, when you can! It's just a shame that change for the good seems to come so slowly as compared to change for the worst!


I practice time out

This response submitted by Bill on 05/28/2004 at 14:03. ( ) 199.245.220.253

When my kids start that in a store or at home I take "time out" of my busy schedule to spank that ass!


I practice time out

This response submitted by Bill on 05/28/2004 at 14:03. ( ) 199.245.220.253

When my kids start that in a store or at home I take "time out" of my busy schedule to spank that ass!


this has been a very intelligent exchange!

This response submitted by Bill Yox on 05/28/2004 at 15:21. ( ) 66.133.134.220

Maybe thats because me, Cecil and Dave Toms havent been in it yet, though...only kidding. There are more and more parents my age that are finally starting to come around to the fact that parenting is full time. Its changing, dont give up hope yet.

The first post actually hit a different nail on the head whether he realized or not. Its funny how people can blatantly disobey law, rules, society, etc, and then bitch about the form of action one takes against it! Right down to a guy being mad because zoning laws in his area prohibit what he may be practicing, yet he blames the town. The rules were there all along. Thats just one example, of course, but its now the trend. Its called accountability...


Every kids different...

This response submitted by marty on 05/28/2004 at 16:30. ( ) 67.173.51.16

With one of my 3 boys, spanking (or should I say the threat of a spanking) does the trick 99.999% of the time.

Spanking has absolutely no impact on either of my other two. Time-outs and loss of privileges usually works for the oldest.

A shock collar or stun gun is next on my list to try for my middle boy, he's a ball of energy. A spanking is definitely counter-productive with him. He gets SO defiant! When he loses his temper, there is no reasoning with him. Our best bet is to send him to his room to calm down. After usually several hours of stubborness, he'll come out and only then can we discuss his punishment/loss of privileges...


Family values

This response submitted by Paul I on 05/28/2004 at 19:30. ( paulblastoatyahoo.com ) 209.210.35.223

As far as the sniper goes it starts with breakdown of family values.When they opened the malls on sunday they started to tear familys apart then.No more driving to older relatives house for lunch.Its everyone for themself.With more people shopping everyone wnated to keep up with the neighbors on goods so the average mother had to go to work.Guilt buys alot for the kids of working parents.As time goes by no respect and good values.Whats in it for me.You parents who spend quality time with your kids are the only hope.It might take a few years, but spend the time and not money.Otherwise we will have more zombies the clear thinking people.


Here is an Idea on Welfare

This response submitted by MichelleW on 05/29/2004 at 01:51. ( blacktail21@hotmail.com ) 209.214.64.30

Think of how much money the we would save on welfare if the government would pull their head out of their arse. Just think if they just passed a simple law.

" People on welfare can NOT have any children while they are on welfare. If they do become pregnant while on welfare they will be inelligable for benifits."

I think this would solve a lot of problems. Might even make people realize they are lazy! It seams to me the government may not be bright enough to come up with this idea. It's just easier to TAX us. Too bad realy.


Grandkids

This response submitted by Susan on 05/29/2004 at 09:26. ( ) 165.247.178.13

We didn't practice this JUNK, but my 3 kids practice "time-out" on my 5 grandkids. The first time each one acted up at our house(while we were keeping them) they found out that there was no "time-out" here, except the time out of our schedules to warm-up their backsides. When they come to visit or stay with us(They often beg their parents to do so) they are good as gold-with the occaisional flare-up with the oldest two. They were diagnosed with "Attention Deficit Symdrom" at an extremely early age. Sometimes I feel like they USE this as a basis to get away with anything they want to-or think that they can!It seems kind of strange that my daughter has problems with them all the time, except right after they've been with us for a day or so. She's even asked us what we've bribed them with to be so good. Children need rules,guidelines, and boundaries-it's part of showing them that we care and are interested enough to provide and KEEP the limits. Don't get me wrong,you can't be all strict and regulations,but instead need a balance of these rules, fun and LOTS OF LOVE. If you show them that you expect a certain behavior from them, then they will explore within those guidelines and see that they can still have fun-even while they're behaving. I'm proud to say that our kids are still learning by example-"time-out" is receiveing the old heave-ho, slowly but surely. And with love. Talkatcha' later- Susan


Susan, you're one sharp cookie

This response submitted by George on 05/29/2004 at 09:53. ( ) 152.163.253.35

That should be required reading for every parent. I agree totally with that ADD crap. Did you notice, as kids, none of US ever had that problem. The only deficit is in the parents doing just what you described.


Success is the accumulation of wealth...

This response submitted by Bill K on 05/29/2004 at 10:13. ( klager@nvc.net ) 64.68.174.69

.... and it's all about me. As long as society keep teaching kids that it's all about me and money, nothing else will ever matter to them.

The ones that are the most disrespectful to others are the ones that are so wrapped up in themselves they can't see the forest for the trees and they seek out support from others like themselves to validate their actions. Psychology 101.

Bill K.


The end of the world....

This response submitted by Jim Tucker on 05/29/2004 at 10:51. ( ) 24.53.65.204

has been coming since Christ ascended into heaven. I have NEVER had a problem with my kids....sure I have spanked them....but the real reason is I treat them as intelligent beings. I have coached baseball for many years, been a boyscout leader etc. It never fails I get the "problem kids". I always hear "wait til you meet that kid". Funny thing I never have a problem with them either. Why? because I treat them with intelligence and respect. No one wants to hear this but kids these days are smarter than we were. They don't just accept "because I said so". Many ADULTS are so stupid that the kids can't help it.

Secondly the world isn't going to hell in a handbasket. It has ALWAYS been screwed up. The Romans murdered, tortured and raped millions. Stealing their land, homes and making them slaves. Here in America less than 150 years ago a WHOLE RACE of people were kept as slaves. They were beaten, families broken up, the women used "sex toys". Less than 100 years ago the British were still occupying lands they stole from the people who lived there. In the 1940's Hitler was murdering thousands if not millions of Jews. America was founded on the backs of Native Americans. They were driven out and murdered anytime we wanted to "expand".

America is a great country. It is also a land of selfish and evil people. The bible says there is NOTHING new under the sun. In other words it has all happened before. Read it sometime. It is full of stories of murder, rape, slavery, disobedient children and incompetent leaders. Where I live there are a lot of great people. there are also plenty of a**holes. These guys/gals have always been there. They always will be. I take care of my own, and stand up for my own. That is all you need to do.


PS. The guys who said that families are working harder today than their fathers/grandfathers need to wake up. I have never seen a bigger bunch of lazy slobs than I see today. My dad busted his ass 2000 times harder than I ever will. My grandfather broke his back working for barely enough to buy FOOD! Hey, I've got an idea.....drop the cable tv, the vcr, the computer, the 3 cars, the boat, the camper, and all the other BS. You may not have to work so hard. My shop makes plenty of money and I work 40 or LESS hours a week. My wife works a 40 hour week as well. So we have plenty of time together with our family. If you are "too busy" for youre kids....it is time to change your lifestyle. it can be done.


Jim your fortunate........

This response submitted by Mac on 05/29/2004 at 13:15. ( vabowhunter@worldnet.att.net ) 216.54.8.18

that you have what you do. So many out there are not as fortunate. I work 40 plus,making better than 15 an Hr, my wife also works 40. 1/3 of our paychecks go to taxes. I am by no means lazy. Exhausted maybe, but not lazy. My children do not live with me, but I have paid my child support for 18+ years. Where I live I do not have cable TV as they do not run it that far out, nor satalite. I do not have a boat, nor 3 cars to choose from. My wife and I cannot afford that. We're lucky to enjoy a night out once or twice a month. Trust me I am more than awake. I bust my ass and do everything I can to be the best "long distance" (and I am not proud of that) Father I can be & all in all I have great kids. I am working harder to achieve an equal stance with what MY Father achieved for my Family. Every family and situation is different, and to say that we should "wake up" in my opinion is unfair. I will have to do some homework, but I believe there are statistics to support my statement to that fact. There will always be exceptions to the rule, but the bottom line for average middle & lower class Americans is that they (and unfortunately myself included) have to work just as hard or harder to meet what our parents did. Is this a sympathy, waa waa for Mac story? No, just some info to show that not all out there are lazy slobs sucking up the latest electronic novelty.
The point I was attempting to make was that when you have to work that hard, the family and the children most of all suffer. Sometime this is the parents fault, sometimes it is not. The variables in lifes equations are endless but if you have the inner strength, a good work ethic and strong family values you can survive and take solice in what you are able to accomplish, as wealth is not always measured in material items.


Moms and Dads

This response submitted by A. Freind on 05/30/2004 at 15:19. ( ) 64.12.116.139

These have been the most inspiring posts I've read here in the forums since I've learned how to use a computer. If I had you all as resources years ago, I never would have 'lost' a kid of mine to one of the most tragic crisis a child and a family could encounter. Thinking back on things on now,I was not the parent I should have been. In defense of our kids,we are a totally helpless in securing the justice that we know those who endanger our own truly deserve. The world is an amazing place with spectacular discoveries made every day. It's the many perverted people in it who prey on the innocence and minds of our kids. I'm one of those kids who used to get the board of correction and more broke over my head every other day. I knew what it was like to be spoiled too because as I never once came home from school to a cold lunch or an empty house. Growing up I saw my cousins beat so bad by their fathers (who married into the family) that they were beat again if they told some one the truth of their broken bodies. One cousin was beat so bad,his father told the hospital that the kid was in a hit and run car accident. When his daughters were old enough to date,he set a curfew for them. If it was violated by even a minute,he simply beat the tar out of his wife,the girls mother (my family) in front of the offending daughter to be sure she got the message. Nobody ever stood up to men like this in a family not even the police as he was thought of as just a good father. Later,when my one cousin became a young man,he waffled his own father as he couldn't take watching the corporal punishment any more. All of this becomes part of the child. All of this makes for some very painful adjustments later in life. Hitting a kid is not the answer. At least not when you've seen so much of it growing up. Not that I'm preaching as I have failed my own kids as a parent in so many ways. Just that hitting them wasn't one of those ways. Still I can't help but think what a difference each of you then would have made in helping me cope with things like this. I really enjoyed reading your views,points and opinions.


Some situations you have no control over.......

This response submitted by Mac on 05/30/2004 at 18:50. ( vabowhunter@worldnet.att.net ) 209.247.222.105

Mr. or Ms. A.Friend, as I hate to assume, I wish you the most sincere condolences as I can only assume the worst by your post. You must understand that I DO NOT CONDONE ABUSE, and please forgive me for going "capitol" but I feel that must be emphasized. A strong reinforcement as a result of bad behavior,Ie: a swat or spanking, followed by an explaination and a show of Love is what I approve of. Broken bones, mental and verbal abuse is plain WRONG. Unfortunately there is no "Punishment for Dummies" books out there and we end up being the product (typically) of our parents. I feel for your relatives as they should not have gone through what they have. People tend to react on their experiences, as is human nature, but in order to keep things on an even keel (nautical term meaning equal) you have to put may individuals experiences together to come up with a good "medium". It just appears in my eyes, that since corporal punishment has been frowned upon and kept from happening by law, the end result was an unrully, obnoxious, and unrespectful generation following behind us. I did not contact my only son until 13 years after his birth. Do I regret my early decision, most certainly, but you cannot turn the clock back. You must do what you can to salvage the present and the future. I am most fortunate that I have aquired a good relationship with my son and I hope that you are able to do the same with your children. My prayers are with you.
Good Luck
Mac


It goes without saying,

This response submitted by A. Freind on 05/30/2004 at 21:02. ( ) 64.12.116.139

Mac, I know where you're coming from man! And I just love all these great people for showing so much concern here. Honestly,no offense taken at anything you posted. There are times when we as taxidermists do more for each other in unrelated circumstances than anyone else possibly can. It's what makes our community here so speacil. Believe me when I say,I am the travel agent of my own guilt trips. People like you and our freinds here sure cushion the ride.


I left a few things out...

This response submitted by Susan on 05/30/2004 at 23:10. ( (working on one) ) 64.12.116.139

I am a (step) mother-that word in parentheses is outlawed in our home(by "our" kids, not me!)in connection with the relationship reference to me OR the kids. You know that divorce is traumatic for any child(=X3). You see, I have been married twice, and my husband three times. I can't have children as a result of the abuse in my 1st marriage. I felt lucky to escape that marriage with my life-and in one piece. I have definitely "TRADED-UP" with my present hubby. He had "our" 3 kids with his first wife,that divorce was a result of them having grown apart due to his absence from the home with all the activities and responsibilities involved in his jobs( local fire chief, stand-in sub for the county communications board, and his job in the plant)-see what I mean? And then there's his 2nd marriage to The Wicked Witch. She had 2 kids from a previous marriage. Example: She would pick-up his check at the plant(with his 3 kids+her 2 kids in the car) and leave to go out to eat and she would drop his 3 kids off somewhere(even on the side of the road)and proceed to take her kids to eat at the steak house. She abused the kids(and my hubby) physically and mentally. She is responsible for really screwing-up our kids self perceptions= failure in school, low self-esteem, "they would always be loosers" she said. LOL..LOL! We got the last laugh on HER!My hubby and I have worked together to help "rebuild" this bunch of (what #2 said..) people into a loving, giving family- with LOTS OF LOVE, patience, and trust(BUT NO TIME-OUT!). We have had(for the last 11 years) regular family gatherings and celebrations, family trips, AND GRANDKIDS!... Our kids have all graduated from highschool-one from College(We took a copy of her Diploma to BOTH her middle school and high school principals-they told her she'd never amount to anything-Isn't that absurd?) These have been only a part of the "roadblocks" in our and the kids developement-but we've taken them as if they were only hurdles and clearing them rather gracefully, if I may say so! My kids =1-with her own business(raising 2 kids), 1-in a supervisory position(raising 1 of her own), 1-working in a plant and just remarried(raising 2 kids). I am so proud of them I could just burst sometimes. The kids' mother has been told(by the kids) that I've been more of a mother to them than she has, and therefore will be called "MAMA" from now on.She will be known as "Mother"(biological reference I'm told). Don't take this wrong, we(me and their mother) get along very well and have been known to go shopping or out to eat together. Sometimes this worries the kids...they don't know what we've been up to , or what we have planned for them..HA..HA! Now it's time to start all over again! Remember, Parents HAVE to say NO...Grandparents can say YES and spoil 'em all they want to ...and then send them HOME! Nah.. we won't be that hard on the kids, but we won't be that easy either!As long as they know we love them and will always try to be there for them, that's ALL that matters. Don't you think? Besides... I informed my hubby on our wedding day(in front of the preacher) that IF we were to ever to divorce, that I get the kids...nothing to argue about...the kids agreed wtih ME!
If you never give up on trying to establish a relationship with your children you will be blessed by it. No matter how HARD it may be, it's worth it in the end. Try not to look back, hindsight is 20x20 you know-and looking back MAKES fertile fields for guilt to grow. Start from this moment and build a lifetime/lifelong relationship with a child(or adult) that's been left too long already, after all it's never too late, just too short a time(even to a hundred years) to enjoy each other. Our prayers are with you, Susan.


I can't comment

This response submitted by Cecil 63.115.128.181 (Baird) Indiana on 05/31/2004 at 12:14. ( ) 63.115.128.246

Since I have no crumb snatchers. So I am not contributing to the problem. Some of us have to cancel out all those unplanned children! LOL Sorry to disapppoint you Bill Yox!


Cecil

This response submitted by Susan on 05/31/2004 at 19:25. ( ) 64.12.116.139

Sorry you missed out on the blessings having children can bring. But thankx for the e-mail...YEP! I actually got 1!It really was a hoot..LOL...LOL -Susan


about spanking and step mothers

This response submitted by Bill Yox on 06/01/2004 at 22:28. ( ) 66.133.134.61

I came from a divorce split family. Im a better person for it, looking back now. But of course I missed out on a ton of stuff. But I learned valuable lessons about life, people and me at an early age. Soetimes I think Im better for it, and sometimes I think Im F'ed up because of it, lol.

I do NOT agree with the above story of how the guy went through a divorce because his job(s) were so demanding that it took him away from the family and kids. No way. You make 'em, you make the time for 'em. Any father, a true MAN, learns that one.

As for hitting and spanking...sorry, theyre two different things. If you warn a child that his actions will be his responsibilty and a spanking is the result of misbehavior, then that is a spanking, as punishment. Its done in nature as well. Now then, turning around and striking a child in anger is not a spanking, or punishment, its just striking. Thats wrong. Most of us have done it once at one time or another, and know all too well the shame that goes along with it. Thats why we never do it again. Dont mix the two up, though, as there sure as hell IS a difference.


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