MK, a 2nd Re: about the people who care.....

Submitted by Mac on 05/29/2004 at 19:32. ( )

I started a new thread for a reason. I, after re-reading your original post, felt a bit guilty. I feel as if I might have taken it in a direction you may not have intended it to go. I beg your pardon if that is the case. The threads which followed resulted in some interesting reading, and I was impressed with all who posted. Yet I did not see anything more from you. I have wondered myself why the Government acts the way they do and what dictates the course of action. Ruby Ridge, I heard about 2nd hand, and from what I understand it was an uncalled for shooting, a woman & child were killed were they not? Waco I only got clips here & there at the time and am unfortunately not completely up to date.
I wish I knew what brought forth the tolerance for violence that our culture seems to have. People say the movies are a big part of it, but I'm not sure if this is the root. It may be that the movies coupled with todays social structure may be playing a part. Either way, our right. It seems as if some of the population condones violence and even embraces it as entertainment. But alas, that is but another bucket of worms to discuss. Your thoughts? & again I beg your pardon if I steered your post in an unwanton direction.

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Ruby RIdge the Goverment was found gulity

This response submitted by Benny on 05/29/2004 at 19:45. ( )

Do a bit of research and you will find the Government was found guilty and fined for shooting the lady. Sections of the house were even taken as evidence.

Why because her husband had been pressured into cutting a shotgun barrel of onehalf inch short of the legal limits. He refused to pay the fine over ideals and what is morally right. When the government uses its forces to entrap people its wrong.

Oh, amount of the fine was two hundred twenty five dollars.
I believe the man had cut two shotguns off if I remember correctly both for the same government agent. After the agent had been told "NO" many times.

IN WACO the use of the M60A2 was at that time a violation of Constitutional rights. It still was until ASHCRAP created his set of rules and regs. That by the way have been authorized by Presidential Order, yes thats right it's a stinking Order that has not even been passed through the Congress or Senate!

I was

This response submitted by michael sestak on 05/29/2004 at 22:02. ( )

looking up some things for a friend on the internet, i entered "machine gun kits" in the search bar, several different threads came up.
one that interested me was about the arrest of a gunsmith, he was arrested because undercover ATF agents went to his shop with what appeared to be a semi-automatic ar-15 with a scope on it.
the scope was loose and they wanted it fixed, well as soon as he started to work on it, they arrested him for working on a fully automatic weapon without the proper license.
they altered the weapon to make it fully automatic and loosened the scope, they then took it to him to have it worked on, they did not tell him it was converted to fully automatic fire, from all looks and appearances it was a semi-automatic weapon.
he wouldn't have known any different unless they told him or he fired it.
from the thread i read, the arrest didnt stand, but it sure as heck cost him a bundle in legal fees, i believe his name was stewart and the case was United States V. Stewart.
i will have to look it up again, but stuff like this doesn't really want to make you trust certain government workers.
after all there is good and bad in everything, including taxidermy.


This response submitted by michael sestak on 05/29/2004 at 22:15. ( )

BATF raids gun kit manufacturer, in the search bar and read what you find there.
the agents allegedy did what i stated above, and it is U.S. vs. Stewart, but this man was into all kinds of things legal and otherwise, he is also a convicted felon, he also is charged with trying to hire a hitman to kill the judge in his case.
guess he isn't all that innocent after all, but i still dont agree with the agents tricking him into working on a gun they modified, but if this guy is a bad apple, take him off the streets a.s.a.p
its people like this that make gun ownership hard for us law abiding citizens.
all this reading certainly doesn't have to do with taxidermy, but it will give you a break from working on all those turkeys :)

What I don't understand about Waco is...

This response submitted by Cecil (Baird) Indiana on 05/30/2004 at 06:11. ( )

If it was so impertative that they get Karich why didn't they just wait it out etc. And from what I heard the guy went into town on a regular basis so nabbing him would have been a no brainer. Why go in with guns blazing and get people killed on both sides? Just seemed rather dumb. Of course Janet Reno seemed to be an idiot and she was calling the shots.

Don't want to sound negative but our FBI and CIA and other security(I know WACO was ATF) have been blundering for some time now. Has anyone noticed? The latest was when they accused the American lawyer of being in cahoots with Al Queda because his fingerprints were found on a timer in Spain. Turns out they weren't his fingerprints. Even Spanish security forces said they weren't his. This is quite a blunder. Kind of makes you wonder if they really are that incompitant.

Of course the biggest blunder was when they were a sleep at the wheel before 9-11. They had clues but no one was working together. As far as law enforcement agencies the hand did not know what the other hand was doing. And there was arrogance and no incentive to fix it. And don't tell me it's lack of funding or Clinton.

How about when one of our own agents was walking out with classified documents day after day with no one questioning him? It took years before anyone noticed. Or when the FBI patted themselves on the back in a press conference for catching two guys with anthrax and it turned out to be harmless veterenarian grade antrax? The list goes on and on.

All I know for sure it don't get caught as a suspect no matter how innocent you are. Not anymore anyway with the Patriot Act.

Thanks Benny...

This response submitted by Mac on 05/30/2004 at 11:19. ( )

I will sit down later t-nite after I get some chores done & look that up. I appreciate the insight. It makes me wonder though, what is the driving source or pressure behind these and similar events? Is it people attempting to make a name for themselves, bad decision making, Public Pressure or just plain ignorance. It's always easy to be on the outside looking in and say "Well if I was there I'd have done this or that", but you gotta put yourself in the shoes of the man or woman who made those decisions. What were his or her inputs prior to that decision. Again, it makes me wonder. Hey Cecil, I was listening to Sen. Bob Dole and another Senator this morn and the other Senator (wish I could remember his name) made a comment which I believe clarified your feelings on an earlier post. He stated that our Gov't should have taken the route that George Senior did by going in front of Congress and deliberating fully the consequences. In retrospect, I think may have to agree, but am leaving an open mind to all accounts. I guess the bottom line when your in the position that our CIC and others who make life & death decisions is you need to thoroughly investigate your options, evaluate cause & effect and determine your best route of action, before you commit. Gee, kinda sounds like regular life decision making ey?
For what it's worth!

when it comes to...

This response submitted by Bill yox on 05/30/2004 at 12:59. ( )

Ruby Ridge, Waco, etc...I admit my first thoughts are of renegades and resistence, people just wired wrong if at all. That may well be wrong, but its my reaction, good or bad. Now, as for why the resulting actions happen, I can honestly say I dont know why. Thats why my post stops here...

They got tired of waiting Cecil...

This response submitted by marty on 05/31/2004 at 12:04. ( )

Who knows what really happened. We'll probably never know.

I believe that they (law enforcement) were losing control of the situation (did they ever have control?) And I believe that they simply wanted the upper hand.

Law enforcement officials NEVER allow criminals to call the shots. They apparently felt that David Koresh was more in control at the the end of the escapade than they were. Now what law enforcement official can allow that to happen?

They obviously used bad judgement. And thru time I think people were getting impatient to do SOMETHING, ANYTHING. They did. And many people - men, women and children paid dearly for a few power hungry morons...

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