For those of you with military experience

Submitted by Cecil on 1/16/05 at 2:10 PM. ( ) 64.184.33.224

In regards to the recent conviction of the SPC 4 at Abu Garab by his peers; don't you find it supsect that apparently no one above this man was aware of what was going on and no other heads up the chain of command are rolling?

I'm not condoning or defending his actions, but from what I remember of the military, those in the chain of command had better know what is going on below them as they have to take responsiblity for their actions. Anybody think this guy, although guilty of his actions is also taking the rap for those above him?

Honest comments please. If you just want to bash me for my politcal view wait until I post something political.

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Good points

This response submitted by TeddyS on 1/16/05 at 2:29 PM. ( ) 24.31.102.0

And I agree with you some. But at the same token, what about when the gang goes of base and gets in a bar...drinks...fights and the MP's haul them back to the base. The chain of command didnt know what was going on,Until it happen. I do agree with you Cecil that somebody has a SPC4 blanket covering there arses on this one.
Teddy


Teddy I have to politely disagree with your example

This response submitted by Cecil on 1/16/05 at 3:18 PM. ( ) 64.184.33.224

We're not talking about something off base and out of control. In this case it was right under their noses at a facility under the control of the military.

Where are the CIA operatives and civilian contracters in this? Are they off limits? I smell cover up and scapegoat in this.


I agree wtih you Cecil

This response submitted by Evelyn on 1/16/05 at 3:40 PM. ( ) 205.188.116.133

sounds to me that this guy was the scapegoat for what was going on higher up in the ranks. He probably said the truth when he said he acted on orders from above. But knowing the military, they are quick to cover things like that up and the little guy takes the fall. I wonder if those Colonels and maybe even Generals who gave the orders can sleep with a clear conscience knowing an inocent man is sitting in prison in their place for the next ten years.


Cecil, you are right!

This response submitted by &&& on 1/16/05 at 3:59 PM. ( ) 70.178.74.104

Someone up the chain should be taking the hit not a low level Spec-4. He was following orders! Major Thomas Pappas S-2 Mil. intel (HAHA)who was in charge of the prison has disappeared as has Gen. Bitchwitch. The lower soldiers may have even been takeing orders from the CIA OPS, yea lets fudgeup some poor enlisted persons life forever in order to CYA!


I accept your disagreement Cecil

This response submitted by TeddyS on 1/16/05 at 5:13 PM. ( ) 24.31.102.0

Maybe I should have stated that as soon as the first thing happened,the "powers to be" should have (as Barney Phiff says)nipped it in the bud. Then all this would not be going on. But the "powers to be". Let it contniue. I am still in agreement with you. And that some higher ups need to place there hand on the bible and swear to oath. Then when they do lie the man upstairs will be the judge for it.
Respectively,
Teddy


I think

This response submitted by DaveT on 1/16/05 at 5:39 PM. ( ) 66.205.116.97

Cecil, piggy and a few others should quit watching the news so much.
Don't know how to break this too you few souls, but even in the military we have young kids who decide to take matters into their own hands. What do you folks think that no one in the military ever does something wrong? You folks need to quit playing CandyLand and join the rest of us in the real world.


DaveT


Now Dave isn't this a 180 degree switch?

This response submitted by Cecil on 1/16/05 at 5:49 PM. ( ) 64.184.33.224

Dave says, "What do you folks think that no one in the military ever does something wrong? You folks need to quit playing CandyLand and join the rest of us in the real world."

Before if I even questioned anything the military did I was bereted.

I do disagree with you on one thing though Evelyn. Graner was not innocent. He enjoyed what he was doing. He smiled in the photos. My take on this is, this thing goes much higher.


I don't know about Dave

This response submitted by cur on 1/16/05 at 7:12 PM. ( ) 4.252.241.242

But anywhere I went in the military for almost nine years, the "game" was keeping things away from superiors. Privates hid details from NCO's; NCO's from Company Grade Officers, and Company Officers from Field Grade Officers. Hell, half of what we did was without the consent or knowledge of our superiors. Seems like the CYA actions always went both ways. We covered our rumps, and others covered theirs. A lot happened that caught superiors by surprise.

To infer that a superior "knows" what is going on among his subordinates is to empower that person with ESP.


I don't know cur

This response submitted by Cecil on 1/16/05 at 7:35 PM. ( ) 64.184.33.224

You really believe these three or four folks were acting completely on their own and were never checked on?


I'm with Dave and Cur

This response submitted by George on 1/16/05 at 10:07 PM. ( georoof@aol.com ) 205.188.116.133

Cecil, you asked US and we told you and now you doubt it. I know what I did personally as an E-4 when dealing with subordinates. I wrote their ticket and a LOT of things happened that weren't "run up the flagpole". NONE of it was like Graner's crap, but it certainly wasn't "by the book". Our reliability actually improved because of those things I decided to do quietly without telling a shop chief, a branch chief or anyone higer up the chain. I'm not sure how the Army works it, but I'm sure platoons are like crews in the Air Force. They have their own little microcosm that they deal within without others knowing whats going on. Today's military is tasked to the limits and I certainly wouldn't be surprised that this went on without others knowing, ESPECIALLY if his subordinates felt a threat from Graner to their careers.


Cecil

This response submitted by cur on 1/16/05 at 11:14 PM. ( ) 4.252.241.242

Have you ever issued trust to anyone? I know that you are, above all else, a Doubting Thomas, but crap happens. The plethora of paperwork that comes with an administrative job in the military is enough to boggle the mind of a civilian - unless they are a GS ump-de-umph who works for the Government. There is precious little time to check up on the activities of subordinates, much less catch them in deception.

You might have noticed that with the Horse-hockey prison scam in Iraq, a three star and a Brigadier General got their tits in a wringer over that debacle. (And where the Brigadier is concerned, the tits were REAL!) So that didn't stop with some buck sergeant, but went all the way to the top. Personally, after what those a$$holes pulled, what happened to them was just insignificant pranks, and not abuse. I figure that they should have been sprayed with ground pork and fecal matter from hogs to boot, but that is just my imagination running away again.

Cecil, you need to try to look at the good in things and not be so damn negative. It is bad enough that you accuse me of being an Albanian mother of twins, let alone finding fault with the remaining fly do-do in the pepper.


It depends on the circumstances

This response submitted by jim Burnside on 1/16/05 at 11:27 PM. ( ) 63.17.206.22

Cecil and Evelyn from my views which aren't usually accepted by some , I have to agree with you all . The way it used to work the higher-ups took all the credit for a job well done and when things didn't go well they shifted the blame on down to the S4's and such . You can bet the farm that higher ups knew what was going on , even as high up as the White House . I still feel some day history will show the real story on the Iraq War and why our President was so intent on getting us in this mess that will probably be going on 15 years from now. I am not being negitive just the way I feel . but we will see how many people are singing their praise for George W. 10 years from now , the sad part is Kerry probably wouldn't have been much better . Its hard to beleive that a Country as great as ours cannot come up with a better choice for elected leaders. .......Have a good day . Jim Burnside


Jim you're O.K. in my book

This response submitted by Cecil on 1/17/05 at 1:02 AM. ( ) 64.184.33.129

And George and Cur well...


Jim

This response submitted by George on 1/17/05 at 8:28 AM. ( ) 64.12.116.133

That's a good post and I wish I could say in my heart that your feelings are wrong and I never have any lingering doubt. I'd be lying.


Well I think

This response submitted by Elmer on 1/17/05 at 7:45 PM. ( Tops ) 64.12.116.133

That you had some S&&T Birds as we called em in the Corps. Took the matters a little too far. Did the higher ups know I just think that is in doubt. Especially any higher than the Company level. i just do not see anyone even the Company level Officer allowing somehing as that being condoned. They got bored and decided to play a little and took pictures the dumb idiots, now that is just showcasing. There are such things as unlawful orders. You do not have to follow a unlawful order. These people were reservist that got activated. With less training than the active duty person not to downgrade a reservist there are some fine people and some fine units. But they had to be brought farther up to speed quickly. for the punishment those that did the crime should pay that is not to say that the OIC (Oficer in Charge) Should not have some sort of reprimand for not knowing it was going on. But who is to say what time this went on during checkin or late at night when only basic watches were on hand. We can ponder all we want but those that got caught with their hands in the cookie jar should pay for their mistake. I really do not belive it went any higher than a Company Grade officer level the White House not quite.


The Job

This response submitted by Mike Barrus on 1/18/05 at 10:04 PM. ( ) 66.191.149.95

Graner was doing his job..no matter how unseemly to those of you out there claim it to be.If we could play by thier rules we would save lives..ours and thiers. What will it take for this country to realize when you play war politically correct or ride the "but we are better than them" bandwagon we (read our troops} suffer. I know the arguments...they'll treat ours even worse...well they already do. As I have stated before, these people only understand domination..its thier culture. Personally I couldn't care less if they tortured the bastards if it saved one soldiers life. Stop giving them actual human traits such as common sense, compassion and the real want to do the right thing...they don't! Go ahead and let the critics begin...just be honest enough to remember when this all goes to hell even worse and we get hit again, or another country gets hit even worse, if we would let those who need to do these things do them..we stand a better chance of winning. Remember also, these terrorists know thier people much more intimately than we do....why are they hitting those who help us just as much as us? The majority will hide, afraid.of what will happen to them...what if we didn't take prisoners? We here would rather worry about who is in the Super Bowl and send some soldier to prison you gave us the right and did what was needed. Who here was there doing what this soldier did? Who here has worked with the CIA so much to not believe they would direct this soldier. Who here thinks in that situation that soldier may not have been overwhelmed by the CIA mystique? Send him home, Admin discharge at the worst if you really want him to take the fall...prison? This country should be ashamed the way it treats it warriors..most of the influence flows from the trash heap mouths of those who take every advantage of freedoms bought and still being paid for with the blood of those trying to do thier best in insane situations...go there, do thier job..then talk..Monday morning quarterbacking is easy.


I know from experience!

This response submitted by Sarge on 1/24/05 at 12:24 AM. ( ) 216.49.103.82

I have 23 years military at this time and I think the whole deal is a bunch of crap! I still have higher ups going behind closed doors to talk about me behind my back. This is due to the fact that I tell it like it is, even to their faces.I don't coward to anyone, especially these types of people. If they weren't cowards, they would come out behind these closed doors and face me like I face them. Unless you have served your country, I can insure you this, that it is just like the cooperate world. The CEO's and other big shots are going to blame their lower employees and fire them, before they lose thei 100,000 dollar a year jobs! The leaders in ths country suck and aren't anything but a bunch of crooks(Martha Stewart). Hell the poor man that use to put food on the table, can't even hunt for it anymore without getting run off. Its the rich that own and post all of the hunting land now! This is one reason why all of the used to be big taxidermist had to start going into being Taxidermy suppliers instead. There just isn't the money in taxidermy anymore. Yep I'm pissed and they need to let that specialist out of prison! I think everyone should write their Congressman to get this man a pardon. He didn't bring this war on BUSH did! Oh, but BUSH is going to go golfing next week while our boys are overseas defending his little golfing venture!


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