i personally have never been checked but i was reading about the miami antler incident and stuff and people were talking about warrants. I was just curious if the DNR shows you a warrant when they come to check you out. Or if you require them to show you. This might not be much of an issue for people with street side shops, but it might be an issue for people who do it out of their house/garage/basement. And if you do it in your basement, how much of the house can they check out? and when you accept a taxidermist license that doesn't somehow waive their need for a warrant does it. I know you guys are the DNR or lawyers, and if i really had to know i would contact a lawyer, but i am just kinda curious and wondered how you guys handled it.
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i meant i know you guys AREN'T the dnr or lawyers.....
For "reasonable cause"....whatever the hell that means. My advice is to run a clean shop with clean records and not sweat it. In the case about the Miami deal, I cannot imagine any Law Enforcement officer acting outside his jurisdiction without authority. There is more to that story than is being told. Maybe Gantry can clear that up.....He used to be one of "them".
I have a freezer full of CITES I, II, and III crap all the time. The records are clear, and everything has documentation. I wouldn't demand a warrant from an inspecting officer, cause I don't have anything to hide. A mistake made by an over-zealous Officer does not negate the law.........It may be a pain in the rump, but if you are legal, enforcement officers are not the enemy.
I cannot imagine any state sending it's appointed officers across boundries without equipping them with the documentation and court orders required for siezure......Most department budgets do not have the funds to do that in the first place.
I would like to see that Miami story, "Pauy Harvey'd".
There was a case taken all the way the the 4th District U.S. Court of Appeals by Mike Showers in Pennsylvania that throws all that out the window on PRECEDENT. In the Showers case, the U.S. District Court ruled that "law enforcement" may NOT enter and search your premises without a valid warrant. That ruled that to do so would violate the 4th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. Probably cause is not sufficient when it comes to domicile or business. They further stated that REGARDLESS of what the Federal and State taxidermy licenses MIGHT STATE, an individual could not be forced or coerced to give up their protection to the Constitution. UNDERSTAND, that ruling is only valid for the 4th District as it was not taken to the U.S.Supreme Court and IF you live outside that jurisdiction, you will still have to have that ruling given by YOUR district court.
If they come in my shop to "inspect", they are allowed to look at my records and anything I have on display for the public. If they want to go rummaging through my freezer, however, I'll need some paper. THEIR PAPER.
I, like others, think there HAD to be some mitigating circumstances for what supposedly happened in Florida. NO GAME WARDEN or POLICEMAN from outside Florida jurisdiction would dare come across that line of authority. If they did, the owner was well within his rights to make a citizen's arrest for an individual posing as a police officer. And Indiana game warden in Florida goes by a more common name there: TOURIST! Tourists don't have any legal authority in Florida or anyplace else for that matter. If a crime was committed, that's why the Lacy Act was inacted. It would have been a FEDERAL offense and not a state one any longer.
Wardens giving a presentation last year, they can go into your freezers to check "documentation" i.e. specimen tags. The tags are part of the records. I "assumed" without a search warrant......
Once you sign for your taxi license - a privilege, you open yourself to just about any reasonable inspections...
Washington Dept of Fish & Wildlife can also search your freezer(s) for documentation w/out a warrent while doing a spot check of your log book. If your shop is on your property using the same address as your home they can come into your home and check those freezer(s) out as well. Just run a clean and orderly shop. Eight years in this location and I've been checked twice. The second time was just last week. I've been told both times that everything was in order and just fine.
You aren't covered by the 4th U.S. District Court. If you allow them to, then the onus is on you. As I stated, the legal precedent has been established, but someone in YOUR district has to be the one to say "NO, not without a warrant" and it has to be brought before YOUR district court. In today's judicial, I'm not so sure that the precedent would be ordered, but IF they disagreed, it would then be sent to the U.S. Supreme Court for final judgement. And if you signed your privacy away by accepting such a monumental "priviledge" to conduct business without harassment, then you have to live with that decision, not me.
And for them to show up wanting to inspect would require a warrant if you refused them. I somewhat agree with Cur's approach with the exception of a$$hole wardens (yes they exist). So it would depend on their approach as far as I'm concerned. I do work out of my home and my home is my castle. I allow no a$$hole in my house, badge or no badge. Even if that means I'm the a$$hole of the house. The way I see it is they are asking me a favor to search my stuff. Thus they need to act like they are asking a favor.
Be carefull with that supossition, In Florida no taxidermy liscense is required but if you have a Federal migratory Bird liscense , then the local game wardens can come and look at your records and freezers, they are deputized by US Fish And Wildlife to do so.
It might be the same in Hawaii?
that seems questionable for any reason, we call the DWR and have them check it out. We have gone out of our way to work with them and help them out (most are good guys here), and that builds a lot of trust. Our customers know we do that, so that also cuts down on the "questionable" animals we get.
Any game warden from a bordering state can cross borders to enforce any Federal wildlife law they observe being broken. That still doesn't explain the Florida thing. I know quite a few Illlinois Coservation Police Officers and I don't know of any that are aware of this incident. Having worked with them on numerous occasions I think there is something missing from this story for sure. I have seen California State Police Officers flown half way around the world for transports but they were always with FBI agents and other federal officers as well as military police, a huge group actually. I guess it depends on the severity of the case which this particular time I am talking about was bad. Dan
Not knowing ALL of the circumstances it's impossible to make any kind of "legal" pondering on this situation. I can guarantee you there are TWO sides of this story of which we have only heard one. I can't fathom an out of state agency would cross or could cross state lines UNLESS the state officers were packing Dept. Of Interior commissions, and were in fact acting under Federal Law, or somehow in possession of a court order or court extradiction papers. Again something is amiss here, and there are not enough facts to ascertain ANYTHING.
If the deer was killed in Illinois and somehow was construed to have been an illegal state kill, federal jurisdiction does not apply, it is what it is, a state matter. If that deer which is not a Fed issue was taking illegally AND then removed, as soon as it crossed the state line it would have violated the Lacy Act, and it would have become a Federal issue.
I smell something other than just a run of the mill situation here, and I suspect it goes much deeper than what we have been told.
As a former state enforcement office I only had "power" of arrest in the specific state I worked for. We had "hot pursuit" rights to cross state line but thats not whats going on here. That is in the heat of battle, this is a cold case. We were commissioned to enforce Federal Law in that state and "surrounding" state.
I CAN GUARANTTE THERE IS MORE TO THIS STORY.
As stated by Cur I will reserve my opinion when I've heard , THE REST OF THE STORY.
Paul Harvey Quotes
Ever occur to you why some of us can be this much concerned with animals suffering? Because government is not. Why not? Animals don't vote.
Golf is a game in which you yell "fore," shoot six, and write down five.
I've never seen a monument erected to a pessimist.
If there is a 50-50 chance that something can go wrong, then 9 times out of ten it will.
In times like these, it helps to recall that there have always been times like these.
Like what you do, if you don't like it, do something else.
If Cur had requested Paul Harvey I would not have responded to the above post, CUR in fact said he would like to see this Pauy Harvey'd, being your from Indiana you probably haven't heard or know of the legend of Pauy Harvey'd, he was a French explorer who went around scratching on cave walls, and carving into trees profound statements of the time, such as Pauy Harvey'd kilt a bar here, here sits Pauy Harvey'd broken hearted....,
The Lacy act would have been triggered when the antlers were transported from Illinois to Florida. Federal Officers or State Officers empowered to enforce the Lacy act could have siezed the horns, but it would have required a court writ to do so, since the violation was not in progress. The horns could have been siezed as evidence, but it would have most likely been done on a Federal Warrant. I can't imagine why a local Federal Officer wouldn't have delivered the warrant, siezed the goods and shipped them back to the court having jurisdiction. Something is fishy about the story.....IF it happened.
I was waiting for someone who KNEW the issues to come onboard. I had those same gut feelings but had no intimate knowledge to relate with it. I appreciate your putting the issue in context.
As we have talked about in the past, each State has different laws, and what is kosher in one my very well be verboten in another. In the state I reside a citizen arrest can only be implemented on a case that is a felony. In as much as if say a guy just comes in an grabs a cash register that holds under 300 bucks........the key is the amount of money under 300 is a misdemeanor...a citizen would not be allowed to "citizen arrest" if the register held 300.01 then the action would be a felony and a citizen arrest would be allowable, BUT this puts the citizenry in a position to know the difference in what constitutes the difference between felonies and violations/misdemeanors.....very fine line sometimes, and in Gantry's opinion run like the wind away from "citizens arrest" unless ya got a body and a smoking gun, then it still might be better to take cover....G
The Lacy act cannot be used in this case, as the court had deemed the land owner the rightful owner of the deer, which was the dispute to begin with, he shot it ,he was legal and liscense and was on his land and sorrounding land is family owned, so it was legally taken to florida.
I'am trying to get a hold of the hunter to see what details we are missing here.