Stepping over the Line Part 2, Explanation

Submitted by Alex on 1/22/05 at 5:00 PM. ( )

The deer ended up in Miami because the Miami Hunter brought it to the Miami taxidermist who is the hunter's friend.

The Miami Hunter was the one who shot the deer originally, the Illinois Hunter was tresspassing in the Miami hunter's Land ' and the local had found the wounded deer and was in the process of dragging the deer when the Miami Hunter comfronted him, Yet the miami Hunter was ticketted for moving the deer when He didn't move it all, after fists flew around the cops were called who called the DNR, apparently the game wardens knew the local hunter and sided with him, But the court awarded the Miami hunter the deer and he brought back to miami.

after which the local hunter has taken the case to a higher court and the game wardens now say the deer is evidence, listen to this, evidence in a civil case ?.

Now the beauty of this is they had no Warrant or Jurisdiction in Miami ,neither they went through the local police or Fla Fish and Game.

It seems Miami is open to Other States doing this, Because game Warens from Montana and wyoming have showed in local shops around here to confiscate supposely illegal game and taken even mounts that were not from their state.This I know for a fact.

about 4 years ago I had some from Montana come into my shop demading an Elk some one shot suppossely illegally, after much argument they had to leave my shop and contact the game and fish ,I contacted the State Law enforcement office and Special Agent showed up ,when the game wardens from montana returned the next day ,The Fla state agent was with me, and he told them to take a hike, the Local game and fish office got involved and they had to wait til I finished the mount and got paid and then they could do whatever with the customer not with me, because According to the my Lawyers I could be liable for releasing work given to me, whether legal or not is not the Taxidermist responsibilty to see that out of state Game is legal or not, another case with another taxidermist had set the precedent in Miami for that dessision.

So now this New taxidermist might be facing a sued from the deer owner ? maybe not as they are friends but this will teach a lesson not to release game so readily to people that have no Jurisdiction in your State.

I wrote this not to embarras the Taxidermist, which shall remain nameless but rather to share what is going on with these wildlife Cops, I know this taxidermist reads these forums and he might want to share more info as mine is second hand, he can remain anonymous.


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This response submitted by Aex on 1/22/05 at 5:03 PM. ( )

About the typos My eyes are bad today from fumes.

Can we get the names of the game wardens?

This response submitted by Dan Hudzik on 1/22/05 at 5:41 PM. ( )

Surely he at least got names and maybe even a badge number or business card? Any of this info I would love. You don't have to post it here, just email it to me. Thanks, Dan Hudzik

Criminal suit vs. Civil Suit = something is not Kosher

This response submitted by G-A-N-T-R-Y on 1/22/05 at 7:33 PM. ( )

The law is a mysterious critter, and most of us civilians, are ignorant of its many factions. Hell most lawyers are too! States operate under States Rights afforded to them by the U.S. Constitution under the Tenth Amendment. Each state has different laws and what might be perfectly acceptable in one state might be considered a major offense in another. Unfortunately its some lower level enforcement officer who has to deal with these laws, and by his oath of office he can't decide which ones he will or won't enforce, so he usually becomes the fall guy, and not the legislature who promulgated them. Mr. Gantry has a rule of 5%, that is 5% of the people in the world are A$$ holes, and law enforcement officials not being being exempt from the theory. But that leaves 95% who actually believe in what they are doing is righteous, and usually make sacrifices in enforcing what is set on paper as laws. It's not going to get you the most popular person of the year no matter what state you live in.

As what you have related here and prior about this event in Miami, herein lies the problem as I see it at present. Apparently by the gist of what I read in part (1) we had initially a criminal suit in which the Miami hunter/landowner won and the deer went to Florida, as per your information that a ticket was issued. I know of no officers that are going to or can get involved in a civil suit, least ways not where I used to work and I suspect that is pretty much universal.
Since I am sure that the initial issue was a criminal suit being that you stated a citation was issued, now you mention the Illinois hunter who lost taking that case to a higher Court which would I assume be the Illinois Court of Appeals or its equivelent. The case would still be a criminal case that is sent up to review to see if the lower Court followed procedure and if there were errors on the lower Court's decesion to have awarded Miami whatever finding of fact and conclusion of law it rendered The Appeals Court isn't going to try the case only ascertain if errors were made on the lower Court level. Of which they will either affirm or deny the Court that the appeal was taken from. Whatever; this case would still be a CRIMINAL case.
Then you toss in the ringer of mentioning the antlers as evidence per a "CIVIL case". This being another cat of a different color. To be a civil case somebody had to swear out some warrants, it certainly precludes those officers from the DNR in Illinois as I am sure that they can only be involved in criminal cases ,not civil.
Apparently there are now two cases an appeal of the criminal case and a civil suit too. Those DNR personel if that is what they were being there for the criminal case only. They, and all these other state wardens just didn't drive down to Miamiwithout some authority, if not then Mr. Miami has the key to the civil suit. I suspecion Mr. Miami/landowner hasn't come out with all the facts yet. If only they would send down Sgt. Friday, "the facts only the facts."
This deer must have Gilded Antlers to warrant this much attention.
It is still of my opinion that there is MUCH information missing from this scenario.
I am almost willing to offer Cur up as a sacrifice that a HUGE chunk of the story is missing.

When did this happen?

This response submitted by marty on 1/22/05 at 8:07 PM. ( )

Ya know it's been awfully cold here in Illinois lately and Florida sure sounds nice! Coulda been a bamboozle trip to catch some rays?

I agree with Mr. Gantry - something's amiss here. I would really like to hear both sides to the story...


This response submitted by cur on 1/22/05 at 8:21 PM. ( )

As I stated on the tail of that previous post, that taking an illegally harvested deer from Illinois to Florida would constitute a violation of the Lacy Act. If the case is still a criminal case, the antlers could be siezed as evidence under the Lacy Act by anyone empowered to enforce it. Normally a warrant would be issued by the court of providence and the warrant would be executed by a local Federal officer and the antlers shipped back to the court having jurisdiction.

In a civil case, the antlers, being the cause of contention would not necessarily be considered evidence. If the Miami citizen who held those antlers were to lose a civil suit, then a court order would be issued forcing him to surrender them to the plaintiff, but not before, since they had been released following the criminal trial and would no longer be state's evidence, but rather contested personal property.

Crap has to be deeper that the statements made to this point. GRAB yer knee boots boys, there's a Tsunami that we don't know about.

What doesn't jive with me...

This response submitted by marty on 1/22/05 at 10:04 PM. ( ) that (if I read the first post correctly) the Illinois DNR allowed the Florida hunter to tag and bring home the deer? If correct then that should be the end of story with the Illinois DNR...

More than meets the eye!

This response submitted by KIM on 1/22/05 at 10:24 PM. ( )

Ran this "quickly" by our Lawfirm and they said that MANY laws, regulations and "home rule" ethics have been stepped on. Also, that there (has got to be) is more to the story than meets the eye!



This response submitted by gantry on 1/22/05 at 10:36 PM. ( )

nope Marty he was ticketed in the first post for not tagging the deer by the DNR..... the Court then found him not guilty dismissed the ticket and gave the deer to Miami who took it to Miami...of which this should have been the fairy tale ending BUT.....

1: Miami after appearing in court to pay a fine for not tagging the deer

2 then the next reference to ticket was

"Yet the Miami Hunter was ticketed for moving the deer"
my suspicion is that after Miami shagged back to Florida the real truth came out, and he was not properly licensed, and possibly the court felt that they had been given some perjured testimony,
Its been my position to straddle the fence cause I know that there ARE two sides to the story and somewhere between the two usually lies the truth.....and its those little things left out that are the
common demonator that tells the BIG picture.


This response submitted by Alex on 1/22/05 at 11:36 PM. ( )

How it was told to me by a close friend of the taxidermist, the miami Hunter is Liscense and have hunted his own land for years,But the thing that get me is they took the deer the same day it was finished mounted and the mold of the antlers and the replica antlers, that is all the taxidermist work and property.

Now I don't know the Miami Hunter did anything wrong at all,I did find out the Local hunter was charged with a third degree felony, tresspassing with a weapon charges were issued by the Sheriff dept that first came to the scene , and is facing those charges and the sued is against the land owner for slugging him in the mouth, this is info I just got.

So I still don't know what this local harhead is doing if he thinks he is going to get a free mounted 200+ deer he didn't shoot in somebody elses land.

Iam trying to contact the miami hunter so he can give me the info first hand.

Alex if Miami is in trouble like in "civil suit" for assault

This response submitted by g on 1/23/05 at 2:03 AM. ( )

for slugging him in the mouth, which has nothing to do with DNR and IF I was Miami, the only person I would be talking to would be my lawyer(s)!!!
Heres the deal the DNR goes to the taxidermist friend to pick up a deer head. Just how did they KNOW exactly where to go to locate this head, in a very large town, in a foreign land! Obliviously Miami had to lead them there, I suspicion that any papers(warrant/court order) and Miranda warnings had already been given to Miami prior to them showing up at Mr. New Taxidermist place of else would they know where to locate the antlers...... , Miami probably hasn't told New Taxidermist the full story, yours has come 3rd hand at best,and as I say if Miami is tooting his horn about any of this to anybody, his lawyer has a FOOL for a client....


This response submitted by ALEX on 1/23/05 at 2:11 PM. ( )

tHIS IS ALL 3RD HAND FROM ME although i've told the story by 3 different people who were there, Miami had being a local until he came to work in miami 2 years ago for the USAF, he is a an f16 pilot and goes back to illinois where his astrange wife lives, they think his wife told where the head went, the legality issues are not what concerns me, the blatant violation of a taxidermy business is, remember oce a presedence have being set ,we will all be affected.

also favortism toward a hunter who is a criminal trespasser against one law abidding citizen is no to be tolerated by anybody.

I don't put up with tresspassers in my land, I caught one a few years ago and took his rifle away, when the sheriff came to my cabin for it I released it to them and file charges, i don't see why i have to finnace poachers to tresspass and kill my game that i work hard to keep in my property, this guy was doing the same thing.

Hey Guys I think the cows can program a VCR by now !

This response submitted by Cecil on 1/23/05 at 2:16 PM. ( )

Sorry couldn't resist!

Cecil are YOU telling me i am dumber than a bovine!

This response submitted by gant-ry on 1/23/05 at 3:36 PM. ( )

cause I haven't a clue how to program mine! Thats what I had kids for! I hate it when the time changes, I have to unplug the thing for an hour and then turn it back on just to get the correct time....ha

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