Speaking of Darwin

Submitted by KB on 2/14/05 at 11:04 PM. ( ) 65.161.239.4

I just caught up with the postings from a couple days ago about Darwin. I used to think God must have used evolution, since I was taught that "science" had proven evolution to be true. However, having now studied it in depth, all the evidence out there fits the Biblical account of creation much better than evolution.

There is a wealth of information showing how all the "evidence" out there fits a literal 6-day creation a whole lot better than it fits the idea of "evolution." There are many books, tapes, videos, conferences, etc. Anyone who has grown up in the public school system has been given the impression that evolution has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt, and that could not be further from the truth. Check out www.icr.org, www.answersingenesis.org, or lots of others. It opened my eyes.

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You know I read a book by Ken Ham

This response submitted by Lou on 2/14/05 at 11:37 PM. ( ljabellman@hotmail.com ) 64.78.67.122

And he tried to explain away carbon dating, saying it was false because the dating is based on the carbon (or something) in the atmosphere(SP). Funny thing though, whenever I hear a Christian speak of the Dead Sea Scrolls or artifacts from biblical times they right away want to use the same carbon dating to prove their dates are correct. Is it "ok" and accurate when it's something that will further their belief in what they see as the truth?
There's no way we were made from nothing without some kind of intelligent maker that I agree with, but my views are such that our maker started the process and then "let the ball roll". It wasn't done in six days and there certainly was no way Noah got all the world's animals on one boat. They're stories made up by people who didn't under science. They thought the world was flat so how could we expect them to understand carbon dating, fossils, disease, birth defects, and such?
You know, if my memory serves me doesn't the Old Testament handled birth defects in "THE LAW"? I think they wouldn't let anyone with defects worship God or enter their places of worship? Nothing like a little persecution for something you have no control over! Or how bout those witch hunts, if you had a birth mark\large mole you were marked as a witch and were either burned alive or they'd give you the float test, if you float after you're drowned then you weren't a witch, but if you sank then by gollie you were a witch!


KB, I respect your beliefs

This response submitted by George on 2/15/05 at 12:11 AM. ( georoof@aol.com ) 205.188.116.134

And I know from dealing with people such as yourself, no amount of evidence will ever convince you differently.

But I'm hard headed. How could you have possibly come to those conclusions by reading a book that's been transcribed dozens of times in the last few dozen years since King James directed the first English translation. Even those scholars messed up, and more literate people than you are I are STILL finding nuances and disagreements in the actual Dead Sea Scrolls. How do you explain dinosaurs? How can you so easily discredit evolution when you have skeletal proof that there were actually cave dwelling beings that really have no resemblance to us today? Even if these cave people DIDN'T evolve from an ape at some time, they still had to be a relative to us and we don't resemble them in any way (well, most of us don't). Off the coast of Mauratania in the 1938 a coelacanth, a fish only known in amber and rock fossils from the Pleistocene era, was caught in a fisherman's net. The sturgeon, opossum, and alligator survived when dinosaurs did not. The dodo, Carolina parakeet, and the passenger pigeon are extinct and though man played some role, nothing short of a natural disaster could have completely eliminated such a widespread species as the latter two. How do you console yourself with what you've read in a book that no longer is considered a literal interpretation of the original works? Do you accept that under a microscope a fetus of a pig, a bear, a sheep, and a human child AT SOME POINT all look the same? God makes that happen and that's evolution. Man couldn't possibly mimic such a wondrous event.

I'm sadden that you think your eyes have been opened as your mind has been obviously closed. The God I worship is capable of so much more than you'll ever realize.


Check Out This Site

This response submitted by RL on 2/15/05 at 12:20 AM. ( ) 67.181.169.216

I followed the evolution theory once upon a time also. I'm a heavy equipment mechanic and worked with a guy who told me about real, tangible proof that Noahs Ark, the Arc of the Covenant, and other significant biblical stories actually happened. I played it off like a joke until this guy brought a few movies that he had purchased and told me to watch them. So, one boring afternoon I put the one about Noahs Ark in. WOW! Near Mt. Sinai, not right on it but near it (bible says the ark came to rest in the mountains of sinai), this archaeologist found a fossilized steel rivet, in a fossilized piece of wood. They also found the splayed "hull" of an ancient ship. The type of wood they discovered was unlike anything indigenous to Turkey. The ship was also the exact measurements as described in the bible. Interesting...I'm not saying that this proves anything, but sure makes you wonder how the heck a steel rivet and fossilized wood made it to 12,000 feet? Here's the link to that guys site. If you have time, check it out. Pictures are pretty good. Makes me scratch my head.

http://www.pilgrimpromo.com/WAR/

I know it's not taxidermy but what the heck. Just my two cents.


What About

This response submitted by Tony Finazzo on 2/15/05 at 12:40 AM. ( ) 64.12.116.134

Ontogeny recapitulates Phylogeny


evolution is fake...

This response submitted by Griz on 2/15/05 at 1:07 AM. ( ) 69.66.86.222

there is no missing link, cause there is no chain....

If i take a thousand stopwatches, and i start one every second on the second for a thousand seconds, when i get done starting them all and go back, will the stopwatches be grouped into groups?-meaning ten of the watches would have sychronized to one number, then the prior ten are sychronized, then on and on, NO! They can't group themselves into species and families and classes! It would flow from one second to the next.


Now if i take one of them stopwatches and bash it up and come back in ten years will it be less bashed up? Why not? It happened in the big bang. Right?

As for all christians using the carbon 14 method, you're gonna have to clue me in, cause i can't remember the last time i heard that being preached.

And granted it takes a little faith to believe in God, but just cause you can't see Him doesn't me He doesn't exist. Unless you believe there is no such thing as a billion dollars, cause you prolly ain't seen that either. For that matter you prolly believe I don't exist cause you've never seen me. If you can't believe He could do it in six days there ain't no need to believe in Him at all. And if you believe He could start it then couldn't He finish it?


And it was YOUR scientists that thought the earth was flat, and they also thought spontaneous generation caused mice to be born of cheese and mold to be born of rotting matter. They thought since they left bread out and mold grew on it that was proof the bread had evolved into mold, spontaneously generating life from lifeless bread. So evidently YOUR scinetists did "under" science.

Over the centuries the science has TOTALLY changed but the bible hasn't. The bible has been consistent.

And as far as birth defects and witches go, you lost me on how that links to evolution, but it seems like birth defects would be more of an argument against evolution.


Unless you are trying to play the race card or something with the witches?


I would ramble on a little more but it is all in the archives and i am tired :-)


Same old same old...eh?

This response submitted by Doug on 2/15/05 at 7:08 AM. ( ) 64.18.236.110

Picture this: A bell curve of opinions in which those who accept evolution as the way life arose and changed are on the left end and those who believe in creation according to a literal interpretation the bible are at the right end. George, as usual, is sitting up above everyone(LMAO). Anyway, the graph is one of OPINIONS and everyone has one don't they? Some of you care enough to discuss this. For one on the left end of the graph to lecture one on the right end with a mountain of scientific data and facts is unproductive. For one on the right end to pontificate to one on the left while citing chapters and verses from the KJ version of the bible is also unproductive. Remember the 3 DON'TS? DON'T draw on the Lone Ranger, DON'T piss in the wind, and... DON'T try to convince someone that your opinion is a fact. The bible is the foundation of christianity and evolution is the foundation of life science and if you don't like it you can take it up with the big guy. That would be George(LMAO)! Rock on fellas.


Evolution and God

This response submitted by JD on 2/15/05 at 8:03 AM. ( ) 216.31.72.235

Sometimes the most difficult of questions are answered with the most simple of answers. Are we a product of evolution? absolutely. Evolution itself is a product of God. The bible and it's interpretations are exactly that...Interpretations made by men inspired by god. The book does the best it can to give order to that which has none. Rules by which to conduct our lives so that we as a spieces can thrive, grow, become enlightened and ponder our existence and not just scrounge for the next meal. The literal randomness of nature and space and the creation and distruction of celestial life, through geological time, is God's playground and he makes the rules. But isn't it fun being a part of it all.


so did plants evolve?

This response submitted by Griz on 2/15/05 at 9:06 AM. ( ) 69.66.87.47

so i guess they have souls too. Because you have to beleive we don't have souls or they do have souls. Evolution doesn't count for acquiring a soul. Amd if it did at what point does it decide something is a man and no longer an ape?


I know Ive said this in here before, but...

This response submitted by Bill Yox on 2/15/05 at 10:37 AM. ( ) 67.138.14.185

I do work for a catholic priest who explained this all to me better then anyone to date. Of course my memory is shot, so this wont be very accurate. The point is, he explained it to me, a skeptic at times, opinionated and hard headed, yet I understood it as possible. He didnt simply justify HIS beliefs, but explained it to me in a way that I felt reasoned through.

A couple of things come to mind right away, like when they say it all was created in X number of days, the measure of days is something to be debated. Also, carbon dating has come under scrutiny, not thrown out, by they do seem willing to adjust it. The theory goes something to the effect of the speed of light has changed over time due to friction, thus throwing off the curve, or something. Like I said, my memory leaves a bit to be desired...

To me, its plain as day that evolution took place, as its STILL taking place. My faith is very comfortable believing in both!


Griz, you're out in left field now

This response submitted by George on 2/15/05 at 10:37 AM. ( ) 205.188.116.134

Plants have souls? How ludicrous is that and as most creationists, you've bounced beyond reality. Even the bible explains that portion quite well. (BTW RL, you've confused your own sources. Mt Ararat is where the ark was assumed to have come to rest. Mt. Sinai is where Moses was given the 10 Commandments. Ararat is in eastern Turkey while Sinai or Mt. Horeb is down on the Sinai peninsula)

MY scientists said the world was flat? My, that's news to me. Those same scientists have increased your life span form 33 years in the 1800's to over 70 now (through the grace of God I might add). Now if you believe the Bible in it's most literal sense, how can you gage time when time doesn't exist? You believe the earth was created in 6 days, but what is a day to God? It is stated that time is but a twinkling of the eye to Him, so why would you base worldly time and ascribe it to God? Genesis tells us that Adam and Eve had sons (it only mentions Cain and Abel, but lets assume there were more). It then says that as they grew, they went out and took wives. Where did the wives come from. Creationists insist that everyone is directly related to Adam and Eve and God created no other people, so where did the sons of Adam and Eve find wives? That's a simple enough question isn't it? And you still didn't answer my dinosaur question or how you don't look like the skeletal remains of the Neanderthal. What gives with that.

As most of you regulars know from our political election bloodshed, when this forum started, we all had a "gentlemans agreement" that we would NOT discuss religion or politics as that often becomes a personal matter that ultimately leads to confrontations just like this one. If this one continues, it will quickly digress into name calling and spur of the moment comments that will later be regretted.

And by the way, whomever of you Creationists who saw fit to add my name to your spam site, I asked to be removed from it. As I'm never going to convince you that my ideas are correct, neither will you. Now lets get back to issues that we DO agree on.....like TAXIDERMY.


If

This response submitted by Alex on 2/15/05 at 11:04 AM. ( ) 66.32.79.239

evolution is still taking place, where are the new species or Just one new specie that has evolved from an existing specie ?.


FAITH

This response submitted by Fred on 2/15/05 at 11:05 AM. ( ) 205.188.116.134

To be a believer, (in GOD) you must have faith...


i don't think i have ever...

This response submitted by Griz on 2/15/05 at 11:08 AM. ( ) 69.66.85.22

called a name on here, and i don't think you have ever called me a name. I don't know if this is exactly a confrontation, as long as someone else doesn't come in here and start the name calling. Some people are not capable of having a intelligent discussion, but i don't think those people are here yet LOL BTW sometimes i think some of the taxidermy issues are more heavily debated than politics and religion LOL

My point about the souls was, that if evolution happened at what point did we get souls? I certainly don't beleive plants have souls, but i also believe that is because God didn't give them one.

My remark about "YOUR scientists" was targeted towards Lou when he was saying "they thought the earth was flat" I was just meaning it was his guys that told "them" it was flat.

I am in a hurry, so i might post later but fyi i hadn't read your post before i posted the first time. i will have to read through this thread again this afternoon to make any sense of it all LOL


Speciation "Link"

This response submitted by Junipera on 2/15/05 at 11:22 AM. ( ) 66.66.1.216

http://www.cc.ndsu.nodak.edu/instruct/mcclean/plsc431/popgen/popgen6.htm


Imagine a fly

This response submitted by Ken Walker on 2/15/05 at 11:37 AM. ( () ) 154.11.98.45

The fly is watching you.You`re excited because you just saved a fortune on you`re insurance by switching to Geico!You`re so exited you f art !Now the fly is excited too!Which event do you think it was that excited the fly?....Point is some things are still beyond our comprehension.


The new species are our children

This response submitted by Bradlee on 2/15/05 at 12:24 PM. ( ) 12.227.181.192

Have you noticed that with each new generation , our children are way more intelligent than we were at their stages ? My son is 12 and they are doing school work that I did in highschool. MY daughter is in second grade and doing what I was in forth grade. Seems natural that we ourselves are developing slowly into a super species above todays standards . Hmmmmmmmmm .... Now I scared myself ! LOL Bradlee


Ontogeny first...

This response submitted by KB on 2/15/05 at 12:34 PM. ( ) 65.161.239.4

Wow. See what an important issue this is? To the "ontogeny" question: that is the theory that every human fetus goes through the stages of evolution as it develops. That was supposed to be a great proof for evolution. First of all, Ernst Haeckel (the embryologist who traveled around showing his drawings of embryos) was convicted of fraud by his own university for making false claims. Not even Darwinists believe that theory today, as you can see from their own quotes in many publications. (see, for example http://www.icr.org/pubs/imp/imp-183.htm.)

Must go do tanning right now, but will be back for more comments.


The Big Picture here

This response submitted by KB on 2/15/05 at 1:11 PM. ( ) 65.161.239.4

is that the Enemy has attacked the very foundation of our faith in God. By believing in evolution, you are saying that you don't believe the book of Genesis is real history. God says His Word is true, and He says He made the world in 6 literal 24-hour days. He even wrote that part in stone in the 10 commandments, and Jesus referred to it in the Gospels. When we believe in evolution, we are saying we choose to believe man over God; in that way we are elevating man's "knowledge" and "wisdom" over God. If God was lying in Genesis, why believe Him in the New Testament? If we evolved after millions of years of other living things had died, then death came before sin, rather than being a consequence of sin. And if that was the case, Jesus Christ's death had no meaning, and makes no sense. You see, believing in evolution has far greater effect than most people realize.

Lou, if you'd done any research at all, you'd know that Noah could very easily fit all the animals on that boat. It didn't look like the silly pictures you see in cartoons. Back then, there were the basic "kinds" of animals, but they hadn't developed into a zillion different "species" yet. (And that is not macro-evolution, it is "micro-evolution", which is nothing more than variation using the same genetic information the animal started with.) And Noah didn't have to take huge dinosaurs on the ark...he could take 2 babies.

Scientists can't prove any dates with carbon dating, and most of them know it. Every time they date something of a known age, the carbon-14 date comes back thousands of years off. Like I said, these things are well-known to scientists and anyone who has done a little research.

And Christians never thought the earth was flat. The Bible speaks of the "circle of the earth", and Christians have always known it was round.

You have a lot of misconceptions about the Bible, which is pretty common, unfortunately. If you truly want to know if the Bible is trustworthy, read "Evidence That Demands a Verdict" by Josh McDowell. Christianity is not a blind faith, but an intelligent faith. Keep asking these questions, but then weigh the answers carefully instead of deciding beforehand not to believe.


KB, that really doesn't cut it

This response submitted by George on 2/15/05 at 1:27 PM. ( ) 205.188.116.134

You do realize, of course, that the "enemy" is attacking because he thinks God ordained HIM to wipe out infidels like you, don't you? Please stop playing the God card. His name is used in vain often enough without you comparing YOUR God to their God. BTW Alex, the chicken you ate for supper is your proof. An 8 pound "oven stuffer" never came about without evolution.


George

This response submitted by KB on 2/15/05 at 1:56 PM. ( ) 65.161.239.4

If you do read this...any questions on Bible reliability from the Dead Sea Scrolls or otherwise are about very small things, not major doctrines or history. The evidence for the reliability of the Bible is incredible, and is given in great detail in the book "The New Evidence That Demands a Verdict" by Josh McDowell.

All the real evidence is the same for both creation and evolution. The difference is how it is interpreted. You say no amount of evidence could convince me, but I am constantly looking at the evidence because I find it fascinating. It isn't that I won't look at the evidence for evolution, it is that I look at all of it, and creation makes much more sense.

What's to explain about dinosaurs? They were made by God during the six-day creation, and they always existed at the same time as man. How else do you explain all the cave paintings, petroglyphs, etc. that show man and dinosaurs both? Obviously whoever painted those dinosaurs had seen them. The Bible talks about dinosaurs in the book of Job, and also about fire-breating dragons. Why do we have legends all over the world about dragons? Because they were real. Why do we find legends all over the world of a great worldwide flood? Because it really happened.

The fossils of "early man" that have been found are of either apes or man, nothing in between. (yes, I can refer you to some great scientific books on that)

And yes, some creatures seem to have become extinct, although there is lots of evidence that there are still dinosaurs alive today in various places.

All those fossils that are found all over the world today were probably deposited there from the flood of Noah's day. When something dies today, it rots or is eaten. Very seldom is something covered up fast enough to preserve it as a fossil nowdays. The fossil clams you find are closed...that means they were buried alive. It's a fascinating study. All the many layers that are supposed to be millions of years old, and different ages...all over the world there are petrified trees that are found running through several layers of rock. When Mt. St. Helens erupted in 1980, the flooding that followed it left what looks like a miniature Grand Canyon, with zillions of layers...and it was laid down in only hours or days. The Geologic Time Scale does not really exist anywhere in the world except in textbooks. In real life what they find is not neat and tidy like it looks in the books. I'll quit for now, but I hope you will see that there are answers to your questions out there.


This age old debate.....

This response submitted by KBauman on 2/15/05 at 2:28 PM. ( ) 164.58.213.67

has been cussed and discussed for years. It will continue to be discussed for many more. Interesting information, intelligent responses, misinterpreted information, poor facts, educated/uneducated answers, open minds/closed minds and stupidity keep it going. To each his own, let's talk taxidermy.


Does the Bible mention dinosaurs?

This response submitted by John Wilkie on 2/15/05 at 3:20 PM. ( ) 199.253.126.2

If people saw dinosaurs, you would think ancient historical writings, such as the Bible, should mention them. The King James Version was first translated in 1611.25 Some people think that because the word ‘dinosaur' is not found in this, or other translations, the Bible does not mention dinosaurs.

However, it was not until 1841 that the word ‘dinosaur' was invented.26,27 Sir Richard Owen, a famous British anatomist and first superintendent of the British museum (and a staunch anti-Darwinist),28 on viewing the bones of Iguanodon and Megalosaurus, realized these represented a unique group of reptiles that had not yet been classified. He coined the term ‘dinosaur' from Greek words meaning ‘terrible lizard.'29

Thus, one would not expect to find the word ‘dinosaur' in the King James Bible—the word did not exist when the translation was done.

Is there another word for ‘dinosaur'? There are dragon legends from around the world. Many ‘dragon' descriptions fit the characteristics of specific dinosaurs. Could these actually be accounts of encounters with what we now call dinosaurs?

The Hebrew word commonly translated ‘dragon' in the KJV (Hebrew: tan, tannin, tannim, tannoth) appears in the Old Testament some 30 times. There are passages in the Bible about ‘dragons' that lived on the land: ‘he [Nebuchadnezzar] has swallowed me like a dragon' (Jer. 51:34), ‘the dragons of the wilderness' (Mal. 1:3). Many biblical creationists believe that in many contexts these could refer to what we now call dinosaurs.30 Indeed, Strong's Concordance lists ‘dinosaur' as one of the meanings of tannin/m.

In Genesis 1:21, the Bible says: ‘And God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed, after their kind ... ' The Hebrew word here for ‘sea monsters' (‘whales' in KJV) is the word translated elsewhere as ‘dragon' (Hebrew tannin). So, in the first chapter of the first book of the Bible God may be describing the great sea dragons (sea-dwelling dinosaur-type animals) He created.

There are other Bible passages about dragons that lived in the sea: ‘the dragons in the waters' (Psalm 74:13), ‘and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea' (Isa. 27:1). Though the word ‘dinosaur' strictly only refers to animals that lived on the land, the sea reptiles and flying reptiles are often grouped with the dinosaurs. The sea-dragons could have included dinosaur-type animals such as the Mosasaurus.31

Job 41 describes a great animal that lived in the sea, Leviathan, that even breathed fire. This ‘dragon' may have been something like the mighty 17 meter long Kronosaurus32, or the 25 m long Liopleurodon.

There is also a mention of a flying serpent in the Bible: the ‘fiery flying serpent' (Isa. 30:6). This could be a reference to one of the pterodactyls, which are popularly thought of as flying dinosaurs, such as the Pteranodon, Rhamphorhynchus or Ornithocheirus.33,34

Not long after the Flood, God was showing a man called Job how great He was as Creator, by reminding Job of a massive creature He had made:

‘Behold now behemoth, which I made with you; he eats grass like an ox. See now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the muscles of his belly. He moves his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his thighs are knit together. His bones are like tubes of bronze; his limbs are like bars of iron. He is the chief of the ways of God: his maker brings near his sword.' (Job 40:15-19)

The phrase ‘chief of the ways of God' suggests this was the largest land animal God had made. So what kind of animal was ‘behemoth'?

Bible translators, not being sure what this beast was, often transliterated the Hebrew, and thus the word ‘behemoth' (e.g., KJV, NKJV, NASB, NIV). However, in many Bible commentaries, and Bible footnotes, ‘behemoth' is said to be ‘possibly the hippopotamus or elephant.'35 Some Bible versions actually translate ‘behemoth' this way.36 Besides the fact that the elephant and hippo were not the largest land animals God made (some of the dinosaurs far eclipsed these), this description does not make sense, since the tail of behemoth is compared to a cedar tree (verse 17).

Now an elephant's tiny tail (or a hippo's tail that looks like a flap of skin!) is quite unlike a cedar tree! Clearly the elephant and the hippo could not possibly be ‘behemoth.' No living creature comes close to this description. However, behemoth is very like Brachiosaurus, one of the large dinosaurs.


PLEEEEEASE

This response submitted by Ken Walker on 2/15/05 at 3:30 PM. ( jurassicpark@idontthinkso.com ) 154.11.98.45

Somebody e-mail me those dinosaur cave-paintings!I`m dying to know what color they were!


Genetic Manipulation....

This response submitted by John Wilkie on 2/15/05 at 3:32 PM. ( ) 199.253.126.2

is not evolution. For example the Poodle is not an evolved dog.


Osama Bin Laden ....

This response submitted by John Wilkie on 2/15/05 at 3:43 PM. ( ) 199.253.126.2

lives in a cave....must be a cave man! Maybe HE IS the missing LINK!


Cain's Wife

This response submitted by John Wilkie on 2/15/05 at 3:54 PM. ( ) 199.253.126.2

Cain was the first child of Adam and Eve recorded in Scripture (Genesis 4:1). His brothers, Abel (Genesis 4:2) and Seth (Genesis 4:25), were part of the first generation of children ever born on this Earth.

Even though only these three males are mentioned by name, Adam and Eve had other children. In Genesis 5:4 a statement sums up the life of Adam and Eve—‘And the days of Adam after he had fathered Seth were eight hundred years. And he fathered sons and daughters.' This does not say when they were born. Many could have been born in the 130 years (Genesis 5:3) before Seth was born.

During their lives, Adam and Eve had a number of male and female children. The Jewish historian Josephus wrote that, ‘The number of Adam's children, as says the old tradition, was thirty-three sons and twenty-three daughters.'11

The Bible does not tell us how many children were born to Adam and Eve. However, considering their long life spans (Adam lived for 930 years—Genesis 5:5), it would seem reasonable to suggest there were many! Remember, they were commanded to ‘Be fruitful, and multiply' (Genesis 1:28).

The wife
If we now work totally from Scripture, without any personal prejudices or other extra-Biblical ideas, then back at the beginning, when there was only the first generation, brothers would have had to have married sisters or there would be no more generations!

We are not told when Cain married or any of the details of other marriages and children, but we can say for certain that some brothers had to marry their sisters at the beginning of human history.

Objections
God's laws
Many people immediately reject the conclusion that Adam and Eve's sons and daughters married each other by appealing to the law against brother-sister intermarriage. Some say that you cannot marry your relation. Actually, if you don't marry your relation, you don't marry a human! A wife is related to her husband even before they marry because all people are descendants of Adam and Eve—all are of ‘one blood.' The law forbidding marriage between close relatives was not given until the time of Moses (Leviticus 18-20). Provided marriage was one man to one woman for life (based on Genesis 1 and 2), there was no disobedience to God's law originally when close relatives (even brothers and sisters) married each other.

Remember that Abraham married his half-sister (Genesis 20:12). God blessed this union to produce the Hebrew people through Isaac and Jacob. It was not until some 400 years later that God gave Moses laws that forbade such marriages.


Neanderthal

This response submitted by John Wilkie on 2/15/05 at 4:01 PM. ( ) 199.253.126.2

Armoured Neanderthal
Around the turn of the century, an anonymous writer in the science journal Nature reported that in the February issue of the Bulletin International of the Academy of Sciences of Cracow, Mr K. Stolyhwo described the discovery of a human skull with classic Neanderthal features. The entire skeleton was in a tomb which also contained iron arrowheads and a suit of chain-mail armour.

This report is no surprise, as Neanderthal bony features have nothing to do with evolutionary 'ape-man' beliefs. They are probably just an example of genetic variation among people, more pronounced in the early post-Flood era. Some evolutionists have pointed out that some Neanderthal bony features are found in a percentage of present-day Europeans.

Nature, 77:587 (1908)—as referenced in the Sourcebook series by William Corliss.


Ken Walker

This response submitted by KB on 2/15/05 at 6:14 PM. ( ) 65.161.239.4

post your right email address, and I'll send you photos of the dinosaur drawings, at least a couple of them. However, you would probably say they were fake. (They are not)

John Wilkie, thanks for taking the time to type in all that info. I don't think these guys want to hear it any more right now, but I appreciate the help. (Hmm, a Ken Ham fan, huh?) Thanks much!


BTT fellas

This response submitted by Doug on 2/15/05 at 9:57 PM. ( ) 64.18.236.137

This, as expected, has become an UNPRODUCTIVE discussion between those on opposite ends of the bell curve I proposed. One can feel the heat building in these exchanges and they serve no purpose because both ends are convinced their view is THE WAY. Thank God for Darwin and move on...eh?


Pescado's Thought of the Day

This response submitted by Paul B aka pescado on 2/15/05 at 10:14 PM. ( bears@att.net ) 24.236.222.46


If man did evolve form apes,why are there still apes? Shouldn't they all be men and women by now?


PB


Pescado

This response submitted by JD on 2/15/05 at 11:10 PM. ( ) 216.31.72.132

Geographical and environmental pressures that caused certain apes or lets say australipithicus in north east Africa to evolve into bipeds was the elimination of trees and the resulting high grass in that region. I can't remember if it's India's collision into Asia or other plate tectonic activity. Apes as you put it that were not in that area were not effected.

Neaderthal and Cro-magnon were completely two seperate spieces that attempted to ocuppy the same niche. Everyone knows that outside a sybiaotic relationship, no two species can occupy the same niche at the same time. That is a fundemental concept in which pressures for survival and random gene mutations create an adaptation for change that either selects spcies for success or failure in survival. This I believe was deduced in The Origin of Spiecies, by Darwin. And this can be seen in real time by producing changes in evironmental stresses that effect populations of fruit flys. Science has shown the effects of gene mutations and survival in these populations because in an controlled environment 1000's of generations can be produced in a short period of time. We could never duplicate this in a species that have long lifespans. So to answer one of the questions above as to why there are no examples of evolution, there are in a microcosim. The fact is we have 5000 years of a recorded history on a planet that is 4 billion years old. So who wants to talk global warming ... only kidding! God is real and he watches over us all. For those of you that have a deep rooted faith in God and can still see the reality of our origins in evolution and science, keep the faith alive, we're not alone!


can i

This response submitted by samantha on 2/15/05 at 11:10 PM. ( ) 211.27.78.73

Quote;
"What's to explain about dinosaurs? They were made by God during the six-day creation, and they always existed at the same time as man. How else do you explain all the cave paintings, petroglyphs, etc. that show man and dinosaurs both?"

Can i see these pics too......humans wernt 'evolved' then. (maybe you mean iceage mammoths, saber tooths and stuff?)
I wonder how 'noah' managed to stuff dinos in his boat?


Pescado

This response submitted by JD on 2/15/05 at 11:10 PM. ( ) 216.31.72.132

Geographical and environmental pressures that caused certain apes or lets say australipithicus in north east Africa to evolve into bipeds was the elimination of trees and the resulting high grass in that region. I can't remember if it's India's collision into Asia or other plate tectonic activity. Apes as you put it that were not in that area were not effected.

Neaderthal and Cro-magnon were completely two seperate spieces that attempted to ocuppy the same niche. Everyone knows that outside a sybiaotic relationship, no two species can occupy the same niche at the same time. That is a fundemental concept in which pressures for survival and random gene mutations create an adaptation for change that either selects spcies for success or failure in survival. This I believe was deduced in The Origin of Spiecies, by Darwin. And this can be seen in real time by producing changes in evironmental stresses that effect populations of fruit flys. Science has shown the effects of gene mutations and survival in these populations because in an controlled environment 1000's of generations can be produced in a short period of time. We could never duplicate this in a species that have long lifespans. So to answer one of the questions above as to why there are no examples of evolution, there are in a microcosim. The fact is we have 5000 years of a recorded history on a planet that is 4 billion years old. So who wants to talk global warming ... only kidding! God is real and he watches over us all. For those of you that have a deep rooted faith in God and can still see the reality of our origins in evolution and science, keep the faith alive, we're not alone!


To answer your question Pescado

This response submitted by Doug on 2/16/05 at 6:57 AM. ( ) 64.18.236.169

Yes. A pic of George and one of Roseanne should be proof enough.(LMAO) And the George I am referring to is George 'The Animal" Steel...eh? You might be too young to remember him, but us old geezers do. Everyone knows what Roseanne looks and acts like(BARF)...LOL.


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