Joe Kish, Icon of Taxidermy Joe Kish Taxidermist

Submitted by Sarah on 4/30/05 at 4:46 PM. ( tacomotaxidermy@hotmail.com ) 70.178.74.104

http://www.taxidermy.net/forums/IndustryArticles/04/l/048FA918E5.html

http://promountschooloftaxidermy.com/Instructor.htm

www.rmi-online.com/ index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=772 - 67k -

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=2nd&navby=case&no=957603

Mr. Kish seems to have sculpted forms for almost every TAXIDERMY SUPPLY CO.

I found 68 entries using www.google.com Van Dykes, Research, McKenzie the list goes on. I do not know but it certianly seems that those who fired Mr. Kish were certianly taxidermist of LESS QUALITY.
To me that brings the thought of the competition not being what it should be. Yes take it for what it is worth. Mr. Kish's background is clean also other than traffic tickets.

Those taxidermist that want to know please lookup Mr. Kish in google as I did.

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As I read it, his Ethics and Judgement were questioned

This response submitted by - on 4/30/05 at 4:58 PM. ( ) 128.241.42.11

not his artistic and craftsman skills.


is it possible?

This response submitted by gill on 4/30/05 at 5:23 PM. ( ) 216.228.55.216

Is it possible to get so good, for so long, that no one else can measure up? Ive had judges tell me that, "there are no blue ribbons in your.... division." at a state show. We are not all as good as Mr Judge. shouldnt the best piece get a blue, for 1st place? Joe is very talented, and versitile, can he relay his knowledge to a score sheet? I dont know. It is difficult to put your critique into words.
gill


Gill

This response submitted by Bob Mead on 4/30/05 at 6:31 PM. ( meadtaxidermy@yahoo.com ) 63.162.143.21


"there are no blue ribbons in your.... division." at a state show. We are not all as good as Mr Judge. shouldnt the best piece get a blue, for 1st place?

Answer: Absolutely not. If it does not merit a score of 90 or better, it doesn't get the blue...just plain mathematics. It doesn't matter if it is the best of the entries shown in that division, it is being judged againt the score sheet...not the other entries.


Bob, I think you actually believe that

This response submitted by George on 4/30/05 at 7:18 PM. ( georoof@aol.com ) 152.163.100.136

But if you read the article by Mary Coombs in Taxidermy Today a few years ago, your comment goes to pot quickly. You see, YOUR opinion of what scores 90 and what someone else considers scoring 90 have nothing in common. Cally Morris once remarked that if he could teach a duck to stand petrified for a couple hours, it would still only rate a low third place in some judges eyes. Take that magic number and a buck and you can buy a cup of coffee most places.

And Sarah, tread lightly. A 65 year old bachelor could mean that the guy is gay, or very choosy, or no one would have him. Go to Google and type in "George Roof". I just did and found 1,270 entries under my name. Is that supposed to mean anything?


Joe Kish

This response submitted by Jim Marsico on 4/30/05 at 7:27 PM. ( ) 63.227.252.186

Let me spend a full week at his studio and home several years ago for FREE learning the finer points of taxidermy one on one and I KNOW he was taking on students like this at this "fee" before and after me in those days because of his love for taxidermy and desire to see overall improvements in the industry. Joe is not the Pope but Joe is a #one a fine person and of course a truely great taxidermist.


Bob

This response submitted by gill on 4/30/05 at 7:53 PM. ( ) 64.89.212.67

Hi Bob, I typed out this whole message, and lost it. so here I go again. I agree to a point. If I give a blue away, it can be a best of category. at the Montana show 2 best of categories move you into masters. Some arent ready for that. Say I hire Mike Orthober, or Jeff Mourning to judge fish. My fish is killer by many standards, but not as good as Mourning, or Orthober can do. they give it red, because they can do better. I think that is what can happen to a judge who is above the rest. If we are "less quality" as Sarah puts it, we will never get a blue. Why would Joe only give one blue at nationals, If that is what happened? I really dont know, but am curious. thanks for your reply,
Gill


Mr. Roof, nothing you can do will equal Mr. Kish

This response submitted by Sarah on 4/30/05 at 9:48 PM. ( ) 70.178.74.104

"And Sarah, tread lightly. A 65 year old bachelor could mean that the guy is gay, or very choosy, or no one would have him. Go to Google and type in "George Roof". I just did and found 1,270 entries under my name. Is that supposed to mean anything?"

Gay? Sexual prefference and /or Mr. Kish's choice to be single is not at question here!
You are saying Mr. Kish is gay with your remark.
That is Totally uncalled for Mr. Roof.
You want to be NTA President, Mr. Roof?

I happen to know Mr. Kish does have a female companion.

Choosey, yes and yes the NTA had Paid him to be Choosey. Then the NTA could not handle the truth.

Mr. Mead is correct if no mount warrants a Blue Ribbon then No BLUE RIBBON SHOULD BE AWARDED. To do anything less is to setup a substandard system. You are being judged against a live animal, not the other taxidermist work. On top of that it was the NATIONAL ANNUAL MEETING, it should have been tough, very tough.

What have you done in the field of Taxidermy that is as commendable as Mr. Kish? NOTHING plain and simple. Wooowwooo Taxi-tuck tool, ha.

Mr. Kish's merits to further the field of taxidermy far far out ranks anything you have done Mr. Roof.

So Mr. Roof tread lightly you say, WHY? Why not sets a standard for a background check for everyone to join the NTA?

My bet is you will find several sex offenders, many felons!

I do not think you want to start throwing mud by insenuating and naming someone as gay. Maybe you better stop and read Federal laws about what you just typed.

You just turned me off of the NTA! I see where you have been in high offices within that association and this is the way you act, childish calling names. Someone mentioned you were a grown up, if so act like one.


If you are so great Mr. Roof why is it you have done nothing but to bring dishonor/discredit upon yourself and the NTA.

Where are all the forms you have sculpted?

Why have you not worked at museums?

Where are the issues of a taxidermy magazine you published?

Where are pages and pages tracing your history in taxidermy back over 35 years?


Sir George, the only place you have publish much more than a hanky full of snot is here and many of those post are rude and attacks like you issue in the earlier post.

No Sir. Mr. Kish is not the Pope of Taxidermy, but he certainly a heck of alot better than you and has taught more people in a kind way than you have. You are certianlly egotistical, your manorisms stink of being a snob, manifested in the anger you display in so many post.


WOW

This response submitted by Michael Sestak on 4/30/05 at 10:15 PM. ( ) 64.12.116.136

a slam dunk...10 points, and by a woman no less (no offense intended)
Go Girl...Go
Damn


wow 39,200

This response submitted by travis on 4/30/05 at 10:29 PM. ( ) 130.76.96.17

Just did my name search...39,200...geez I must be famous...lol...lookout George I`m pulling ahead..that search was on yahoo...try yahoo George ya may score better...got to get them numbers up..:).....man I just went and did a "google" and found 49,000...shoot I should be rich if my name is being thrown around on the internet that much. hehaaa


3,960,000

This response submitted by Travis on 4/30/05 at 10:34 PM. ( ) 130.76.96.17

George your the king on yahoo...3 and a half million...lol.....


I'm NOT Mr. Roof. If you want my dad, you'll have to ask

This response submitted by George on 4/30/05 at 10:50 PM. ( ) 205.188.116.67

Now you've become as air headed as some others. Where did I say Joe Kish was gay? I don't think he's a bachelor by the proper terminology either. So I don't know what planet you got that from. I don't give a damned if Joe has a harem, for cripes sake. Can you spell "analogy"? Maybe I should have said a 65 year old Old Maid. Would that have made you happier?

Now I asked you to tread lightly and you got down right ignorant. First off the NTA DID NOT hire him to be "choosy". They hired him to be a judge with the same expectation they've hired other judges in the past. They EXPECTED him to use a score sheet and give a competitor an honest appraisal of their work, not of his overinflated ego. Get over it. I'm sorry you can't handle the truth either.

You seem to be proccupied with sexual fantasies, but I assure you that whatever kinky thoughts inhabit your mind, the NTA could care less and I could care even more less. My concern what this idol of yours has worked in dozens of places. Doesn't that give people like you a clue that something SOMEWHERE must be wrong that an individual can't maintain a constant job?

For nearly 50 years, I've been a taxidermist. I didn't work in any museums or write any taxidermy magazines or own any of several supply companies. Neither did I destroy them during my tenures. If you want over 50 years of my life history, I guess you could buy my book. I'll send you the ISBN number if you'd like. I've never marketed a single sculpture. So does that mean a snot nose like you can take away me calling myself a taxidermist.

Let me tell you, however, that your little search was myopic in scope. I have letters from true icons of this industry that don't blow the same roses up peoples butts that Mr. Kish seems to have done to you. If you'd like copies of those to add to your collection, email me and I'll scan them for you. You won't find them on Google, however, in that they were in print long before the internet became a proper noun. When the older people who've been in those lofty circles talk to me, their remarks are strikingly similar about Joe Kish. They all, to a person, state that "Joe's always been that way" and they all seem to, at some point, use the same adjective to describe him: "controversial".

Your statement that I "turn you off of the NTA" is childish at best and blatantly condescending. Your remarks about the organization tied to me are just like the extortion being played by your cronies and I take extreme exception to that. If you don't want to be an NTA member, at least be adult enough to admit it. Don't try something so silly as to imply that one person, in whatever position, could effect your wanting to join 2200 other people with similar interests. Your "friends" are openly advocating the removal of all powers from the post I'm seeking anyway and IF you were a member, you could insure that I don't get elected. (Guess that never crossed your mind either.) But one thing you or anyone like you can ever do to me is keep me from telling the truth. Did you ever see the movie " A Few Good Men" with Jack Nicholson. His line covers my feelings about people like you: "You want the TRUTH?" You can't HANDLE the truth!"


So many egos to satisfy!

This response submitted by Kevin on 4/30/05 at 11:55 PM. ( ) 69.171.240.121

Is this the Sarah that is in high school?

George, if you have that many hits on YOUR name and everything is YOURS, you are on the computer too much!

Have fun and play nice......children


With all due Respect Mr. Roof

This response submitted by Sarah on 5/1/05 at 12:44 AM. ( ) 70.178.74.104

Bob, I think you actually believe that
This response submitted by George on 4/30/05 at 7:18 PM. ( georoof@aol.com ) 152.163.100.136

EDITED FOR MR. ROOF

And Sarah, tread lightly. A 65 year old bachelor could mean that the guy is gay, or very choosy, or no one would have him. Go to Google and type in "George Roof". I just did and found 1,270 entries under my name. Is that supposed to mean anything?

Sir, did you not posted the above, at 7:18 PM?

I certainly have not had smoke blown you know where, and especially by Mr. Roof who is flat out LYING.

Disect the Post, Its about Mr. Kish, then you type words talking about your opinion of him.

Mr. Roof I have received a couple of emails, and they are correct while you may have a high I.Q. you are still dumber than a barrel of monkey poo.

You may be able to BULLY some of the people, but the rest of us see thru your boundless rhetoric. You will not bully me. Since you see fit to lie things, this includes hiding information, insinuating sexual preference.

Yes, when someone faces you, you backup and are Mr. Nice guy. If I were a male and weighed 200lbs, I guaranty you would eat your words! Your knuckle sandwich would not have mustard or mayo on it.

But you are safe, I doubt my 17 year old petite frame could do you much harm.

You are just an arrogant, egotistical a$$hole, nothing will change you and for me I will never be part of your NTA. I will not associate, with bullies and abusers, the NTA needs to check their rank and file before allowing them to hold office.

Maybe just do some computer homework and lookup the members criminal records.

So much for the NTA being a PROFESSIONAL ASSOCIATION. So far I see way to much unprofessional conduct, it is very unbecoming!


Yes, I was told I cannot win against Mr. George. Well I sure am not bitter at life, but I am not as old either.

Why are so many Oldtimers so bitter?


Jack .. I mean George Roof

This response submitted by John B on 5/1/05 at 2:31 AM. ( JPB@stx.rr.com ) 68.201.89.167

We can not handle the TRUTH?

That is exactly the problem with you and the NTA ,you want to keep it in the back room.


Sarah, if you survive puberty, come on back

This response submitted by George on 5/1/05 at 9:31 AM. ( ) 64.12.116.136

I warned you to tread lightly, but now you've used the secret words. You called me a liar and no snot-nosed, prepubescent teenager will ever do that without me asking where your parents are and why they'd turn you lose in an adult world that you don't have a single clue about. As I SAID, it was an "ANALOGY" and not an indictment of Joe Kish's sex life. I THINK he's a lot older than 65 probably but if he'd not, it still wasn't said in that vein.

I guess you're on Jan Van Hoesen's band wagon now with "background" checks and the Big Brother mentality. You know they don't even do that to Roman Catholic priests or to Michael Jackson, or to millions of other organizations. My background checks were done for years by the FBI, but that was in a line of work you couldn't fathom anyway. Why would the NTA do that But Sarah, put your money where your mouth is. Do you have NAMES of these individuals? Are you willing to be sued for libel for naming them IF your information is NOT correct? It it IS correct, and you seem to be pompously brave today, you have nothing to fear, so list a few names for us to see.

And before that hummingbird butt of yours is overloaded by that alligator mouth, you'd better think about the people you are damning in your diatribe about the NTA. Many of those "bullies" and "abusers" are people you're already engaged in hero worship over. Many more of them have offed advice that you've heeded if you have any talent. So why would you make such disparaging accusations?

And if you were 200 pounds, you'd still be shorter and 50 pounds skinnier than me. Even at 60 years old, you probably wouldn't be so stupid as to try what you're fantasizing about. You obviously haven't a clue about who I am or what I do. You've never been to any shows or met me personally or you'd have taken my advice earlier.

Speaking of alligator mouths, John B, time for you to belly up. Just exactly what issue do you PERSONALLY HAVE INFORMATION ON that was hidden behind closed doors? Or are you just a parrot, squawking about something you HEARD from somebody like Sarah? I'll tell you absolutely anything you want to know about the NTA and its operations, but then again, you probably can't handle the truth either. It's just easier to slander from the bushes than it it to confront from the sunlight.


somebody like Sarah ? NO George ,

This response submitted by John B on 5/1/05 at 12:26 PM. ( JPB@stx.rr.com ) 68.201.89.167


I read it from your post,your words.

"His lines cover my feelings about people like you":"You want the Truth? You can't Handle the truth!" Yes , I saw the movie,did you?Did you understand what he meant by that statement? Believe it or not the rest of us do.

"I'll tell you absolutely anything you want to know about the NTA and it's opperations"

Which one of your statements is the TRUTH and which is the LIE? I know you do not lie George,but I see contradictions in your statements.

By the way,maybe it was a poor choice of a mannikin.Do you know who's mannikin it was? There is a lot of poor mannikins on the
market,this is undeniable! If the NTA is about making the industry better,why are they worried about hurting the feelings of a manikin company? I thought there was a catagory for judging forms?


Ok, it is time to show your credentials.

This response submitted by Kim on 5/1/05 at 2:09 PM. ( ) 69.171.240.121

Ok, it is time to show your credentials. George and everyone else seems to have a history. Oh, Sarah, can't seem to find anything for you. Would you please provide a list of your qualifications on taxidermy, life, politics, paying taxes, teaching, working etc. That way we know you are real.

Thank you very much


Sarah

This response submitted by George on 5/1/05 at 2:42 PM. ( ) 152.163.100.136

I really don't know why I'm wasting my time trying to reason with someone incapable of listening and perceiving what's said, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here one last time.

ONE, I do not lie nor tolerate those who do. I did all my "growing up" in the military and spent 30 years there living that life. I'm too old to change now. NOTHING I said was in conflict with what I believe to be true and will remain that way until I get verifiable proof otherwise. End of story.

Secondly, had you bothered to read the exerpts that I posted from Joe Kish's American Taxidermy Magazine, you'd see that even he said he thought the practice of judging the manikin rather than the work was a bad practice. Why aren't you asking HIM which of his statements is true.

Thirdly, you need the NTA system of competition and to learn what's involved in competing. There is no category to judge the FORM. It doesn't MATTER whose form is used as a "company" doesn't often market a form that hasn't been contracted from another taxidermist/sculptor (just as you related the number of forms sold by varying companies who sell Joe Kish forms). If the anatomy is incorrect as it relates to a live specimen, then the taxidermist is expected to correct that deficiency. There are, as I've already posted, categories and blocks for a judge to mark "anatomy" problems and what he or she sees deficient in them. None of them were used as was nothing else on the critique sheet.

In order to enter an NTA National show, you must pay registration fees as well as competition fees that can run into the hundreds of dollars for individual competitors. The only thing guaranteed to that competitor is that he can sit through a multitude of seminars AND have his piece judged by a qualified judge who will describe to him on a critique sheet exactly what is right or wrong with his entry. That's it. He's not even promised one of those fancy $10 ribbons or cash awards we give.

SO, my take is that the competitor deserves, at the very least, that a judge that we pay in excess of $1000 to do a job, will do it completely and objectively so that the competitor can see constructive criticism or praise. That's it. Had any of those sheets been completed as the NTA expects and as every other judge who's ever judged our shows has done, my name would have never entered in this conversation to begin with. I don't agree with a lot of judging but I accept that as my perception versus a paid professional's opinion. I'd never argue and I certainly wouldn't be supporting dismissal of a judge like that from any venue. You're trying to paint me in a corner, but I hate to tell you, I'm on the outside looking in. I don't have any walls around me to even form a corner. Sorry.


Qualifications, in a job where all most do is have a sign?

This response submitted by Sarah on 5/1/05 at 10:59 PM. ( ) 70.178.74.104


I have doing taxidermy seven years, since I was ten years old. I mount 50 to 70 mounts per year, for the last three years. I have also attended a couple of workshops. Have every book in the Breakthrough collection, but I started with the Jonas books. I was passed down almost every Taxidermy magazine ever published. My Uncle has been a taxidermy since before I came along. I have read most of the archives a couple of times, been doing that for about four years

Life, as mentioned earlier I am seventeen years old. I may have the upper hand as I was born in a hospital and not a barn.

Politics, Well I am not old enough to vote, but unlike President Clinton I know what sex is and what it is not.

Paying taxes, I earned just over $15,000 doing taxidermy during 2004 and went high school where I completed the 10th grade. Yes I am young but I am not what Mr. Roof wishes to talk about.

teaching,? What are you asking, if I attended class or tried teaching? I do know I see many would be taxidermist who cannot do quality work trying to teach.

I do know that since Mr. Roof stated he wanted to President of the NTA and seeing the other bickering, I have zero need for the NTA.
I will put my money were it will do some good and that is to join Safari Club.

working etc. See the above paying taxes.

I know that many types of reference materials are so close and some taxidermist get so deep into attempting to do taxidermy they over look the easy stuff. See the post about bobcat reference where terryr dissed Tab Hinton's coyote shoulder forms.

I also know while my work is far better than what I see hanging around bait stores and tackles shops I certainly am not a Ken Walker. but I have time to develope my work to that standard.

One thing I would like to add, I am a Junior is high school this year, but I am taking second year college courses and I have a lot to learn about life and know life is what you make of it. I will never be so bitter as some of the NTA members who post here.

Life is all about attitude, business is about knowledge, friends are about personality.

A successfull business is Attitude, knowledge and personality.

I knwo the difference in a troll and a knome, Mr. Roof is a grouchy old troll! How can someone be so bitter toward everyone?


Sarah, how deep is your anger?

This response submitted by Kim on 5/1/05 at 11:38 PM. ( ) 69.171.240.121

Sarah,

Thank you for your response. You seem to be honest with your reply.
You missed the point of my post but that is alright.

You have a bitter problem with George Roof and it is festering. The problem seems to go deeper than it should considering the information given. So, I would imagine that there is more to your anger than you are willing to talk about. However that is between you and Mr. Roof. Personal e-mail him and deal with it. If you can't, then you are not ready to face your problems in life and with individuals.

As you age and gain life experience and hopefully wisdom, you will understand the deeper meanings of everything that has been said to you both on this forum and from your other conversations, which inspired you to write in the first place.

Best wishes in High School


You mean "Gnome"?

This response submitted by George on 5/1/05 at 11:40 PM. ( ) 152.163.100.136

Obviously have a lot to learn yet. And I'm glad you're supporting the NTA. You see, Ken Walker is one of us and the Safari Club is one of our sponsors. The more you talk about avoiding us, the more you're going to find you're a part of us. Because I know some things for a fact doesn't make me bitter. It makes me confident that I'm right. You are the one who sounds bitter. You've never met me or spoken to me so how can you pass judgement so easily. When anyone disagrees with your point of view, that makes them bitter? You'll do well in taxidermy. You're already acting like one. And I'm done with you Sarah. I attempted to treat you as an adult in asking you to "tread lightly" and you ridiculed me. I'll wait until you grow up mentally.


Let me be

This response submitted by Michael Sestak on 5/2/05 at 6:34 AM. ( ) 152.163.100.136

the first to give some type of support to Sarah.
(i like this)
first off, why did Kim have to say that she has anger issues when all she did was stand her ground and refuse to budge from her point of view when jumped on by others (NTA members no doubt).
Sure Sarah got angry and so would i when jumped on and ridiculed the way she was.
George, Wow...all you have to do is read the archives to get an understanding of this man...basically if you dont agree with him, he verbally bashes you on this forum, its his way or no way(sometimes).
everyone has an opinion, some good, some stink.
i dont believe that Sarah has Deep Anger, i just believe she intends to stick by what she said, as would any ADULT on this forum.
if you read what she has posted, right above the nonsense written by Kim, then you can obviously see that she has her head on straight and is thinking about the way the world is in a positive manner.
Sarah also refuses to follow the crowd and buckle under when pressured, at the young age of 17.(good for her)
she knows who she is, what she wants and how she is going to get it, she obviously has short term and long term goals, they are set and so is she.
the older folks on this forum(george) sometimes get angry and verbally bash the daylights out of each other, right here for all to see, do they have DEEP ANGER, i believe so.
and just to set the record straight the NTA is a fine organization, but it wasnt created by God, its not run by board elected by God, and its views and rules dont govern the world of taxidermy...so there, nyahh, nyahh...........


Michael, you used all that space. Now what did you say?

This response submitted by George on 5/2/05 at 8:47 AM. ( ) 64.12.116.136

For some simple reason I'm sure, people like you and Sarah want to feel downtrodden and "bashed" when called to point out a difference in "opinion" and "fact". The internet is rife with blogs and opinions and the masses often get led down that path to the slaughter. Whatever Sarah's issues are, that doesn't make them right and for a 17 year old to accuse ANYONE of lying is a pretty strong indictment when all she, OR YOU, have is an opinion. If you give your opinion and it goes unchallenged, those same masses assume it to be true. When you have them challenged and immediately launch into a personal attack on someone else's character or their history, I'd hope you aren't so juvenile to think the they'd only sit there an listen.

It's rather funny that you would accuse me of "bashing". I recall answering many of your questions when no one else bothered. Was that bashing you as well, or do you have "Deep Anger" pent up as well? "I fear thou protests too loudly."


Way to go Sarah

This response submitted by Jan Van Hoesen on 5/2/05 at 9:12 AM. ( vanhoese@freeway.net ) 216.93.26.107

Sarah you are my kind of person. You expressed yourself much better than many so called grown ups on here. Keep up the good work. Hope to meet you someday.
Jan


George

This response submitted by John B on 5/2/05 at 10:40 AM. ( JPB@stx.rr.com ) 68.201.89.167

If Joe was fired for not doing his job that is fine with me.It is the manner in which it was handled.

I am asking you not Joe the question because you want to be the president of the NTA.

Are you incapable of listening and perceiving what is writen in these threads including your own? You are answering to Sarah when in fact it was me John B asking the questions you still skirt.

The VERIFIABLE proof is in your statements in your post. I should not have to point this out to a man of your intelligence.

Please try one more time to just answer the question.

Which one of your statements is a lie?

"You can handle the truth" or "I'll tell you any thing you want to know".?

You say you truely believe in everything you say but these two statements do not go hand and hand.


sorry a few type O's

This response submitted by John B on 5/2/05 at 10:43 AM. ( ) 68.201.89.167


"You can't handle the truth"


Sarah Some Suggested Reading

This response submitted by Dr. Freud on 5/2/05 at 11:02 AM. ( ) 63.170.184.137

Sarah here are some books I suggest you read:

1) Beyond Anger: A Guide for Young Women
Focusing on the differences in ways young women deal with anger towards George Roof, psychologist Thomas J. Harbin discusses the symptoms and consequences of chronic anger in "Beyond Anger: A Guide for Young Women: How to Free Yourself From the Grip of Anger and Get More Out of Life." Dr. Harbin offers valuable advice for ridding yourself of this destructive emotion.

2) Overcoming Anger and Irritability
"Overcoming Anger and Irritability", by William Davies, is based on the theory of cognitive behavior therapy (CBT). Through changing negative thought patterns, our behaviors (such as angry responses) can be brought under control. This book contains a self-help program with worksheets to help you clarify the sources of your discomfort.

3) The Anger Habit
"The Anger Habit" by Carl Semmelroth and Donald E.P. Smith is a brief (150 pages) case study-based discussion of anger, including some of the behaviors (georgeroofness, sadness) that result directly from anger, recognized or otherwise.

4) The Angry Self
"The Angry Self: A Comprehensive Guide to Anger Management" by Miriam M. Gottlieb, is a workbook-based approach to identifying and recognizing your sources of anger (like the George Roof syndrome), learning to overcome the dominance of anger, and finally, to redirecting your anger away from George Roof to Jan Van Hoesen in a positive and constructive way.

5) The Anger Workbook
Lorrainne Bilodeau's "The Anger Workbook" is another resource using exercises and questions to assist you in the process of self-discovery and acknowledgment of your angry feelings towards George Roof and his dad Mr. Roof.

6) Anger Management Workbook for Kids and Teens
As the title states, "Anger Management Workbook for Kids and Teens" by Anita Bohensky uses 12 skill-building exercise sessions to help adolescents and pre-adolescents deal with angry feelings towards adults, George Roof, and homeroomm teachers. Teens can use this book together with an consenting adult or on their own.

7) Anger: Wisdom for Cooling the Flames
Written by Buddhist monk Nhat Hanh, "Anger: Wisdom for Cooling the Flames" takes a more spiritual approach to dealing with anger towards George Roof. Using understandable language, the book promotes transformation of the inner self through the concept of mindfulness.



John , are you literate?

This response submitted by George on 5/2/05 at 2:17 PM. ( ) 64.12.116.136

There's no conundrum in my statement. Because someone ELSE is incapable of handling the truth, doesn't mean I can't answer all the questions asked. One sentence had the pronoun "you" as its subject and the second sentence had the pronoun "I" as the subject. The fact that they're pronouns doesn't alter the fact that they are different individuals being referred to and my statement to one has nothing to do with my declaration of the second. Get it? Didn't think so.

So to ease your pain, if you can, in fact, handle the truth, just exactly what questions would you like answered. Now remember, you MUST accept what I tell you as the truth because to do anything less will revert you right back to my original assessment of "YOU" in that sentence.


And thank you Jan

This response submitted by George on 5/2/05 at 2:20 PM. ( ) 64.12.116.136

I wondered when you were going to start describing someone who used slander, threats, and ridicule as an example of what you would consider adult. Guess I can be a kid a little while longer.


LOL: Lots of egos to pet, huh? A FINE group of people!

This response submitted by Kim on 5/2/05 at 3:40 PM. ( ) 69.171.240.121


DOES EVERYBODY FEEL BETTER NOW?

I love it! You guys are cool! (old fashioned term). The words "deep anger" seemed to hit a nerve with some of you. Interesting.... but very good.

LOL: Michael Sestak,
What you don't understand you criticize, huh? It is standard SOP with many, don't feel bad about it. The words really hit home with Michael Sestak......I wonder why? LMAO: Do these words have a special meaning with you?...Just forget it dude!

LMAO: You kids have fun don't forget to be sensitive about the other person, don't trample on personal rights and remember that some people may be offended by what you say and might become depressed by your meanness.



okay

This response submitted by Michael sestak on 5/2/05 at 4:35 PM. ( ) 152.163.100.136

Kim,
i dont have anger issues, deep or shallow, what i was trying to do was to stand up for Sarah, she stood her ground.
the discussion was between her and george and you jumped in with that "deep anger" crap insuating that there were other issues in her life affecting her behavior, there was nothing for me to understand, i dont look beyond what it is posted ( well maybe sometimes)the criticizing came about because i felt that the deep anger remark was a personal attack on a young individual who is rather articulate and has a great sense of what life is about.
thats all, i have always tried to help those that i felt were unjustly jumped on or accused of something.
and for george,
thank you for answering my questions from time to time, you are helpful...no doubt about it.
as for the bashing if you dont agree with him, remark. i do feel that its true, you come across rather harshly at times.
sometimes its needed and sometimes its not, you are blunt, honest and truthful, you stick to your guns and tell it like it is.
i have to admire that in anyone, hell anyone would have to admire that in anyone.
and if you re-read Sarahs post she did exactly that, stated the truth, stuck by her guns and was blunt, honest, truthful.
i just didnt care for the insuations about her anger by others, it bothered me...it just did... no underlying reason..
i just jumped in...cause i wanted to.
i dont care about the rest of the story, the NTA thing, the Joe Kish thing(i have comp sheets signed by him)but it really riled my behind when Kim jumped in the way he did.
and George replied "you mean Gnome" and followed with "obviously you have a lot to learn yet" all over a typo.
if we all picked apart the typos on here, Ken would have to shut us down as this site would run out of space.
Carry on folks, enjoy life and dont take it to seriously LOL..Kim


Fascinating! Your alright Michael.

This response submitted by Kim on 5/2/05 at 5:35 PM. ( ) 69.171.240.121

Michael Sestak,

It is alright. I find people fascinating by how quick and temperamental everyone has become (so quick to jump and hurt). Kinda like the schizoid group that always says, "don't forget about me." But what the heck. Without people, what would we do?

LOL: I just play along with the players! It gives me escapeism entertainment at a reasonable cost....

You have a fine one!

Kim


Sarah, George, Kim, Jan, Sestak

This response submitted by Dr. Freud on 5/2/05 at 5:37 PM. ( ) 63.170.184.137

May I suggest you all take this test before coming to your appointments. http://www.angeresources.com/pretest.html

Remember these Psychological Exams are now required for your continued membership in the NTA. Failure to take the exam or to show up for your appointments will be a violation of your probation and could lead to expulsion from the NTA, censure or commitment as directed by Judge C.Baird of Indiana.

If you have any questions please read the Organizational Patriot Act adopted by the NTA.


Kim, alright is alwrong

This response submitted by George on 5/2/05 at 6:24 PM. ( ) 205.188.116.67

See Michael, I'm an equal opportunity A.H. I only pick on people who "articulate well". LOL. But it's true. If you can't talk correctly anyway, correcting spelling is spitting into the wind.


Hey George!

This response submitted by Kim on 5/2/05 at 6:41 PM. ( ) 69.171.240.121

How is it going? The "flock" is taking you to task for many things. But you know how to handle the little things in life.
Anyway, have you noticed that many are missing some feathers? Funny huh? So quick......

I know you understand what I mean. Hang in there!


Dear Dr. Freud

This response submitted by Kim on 5/2/05 at 6:52 PM. ( ) 69.171.240.121

LMAO


Dear Dr. Freud,

Please make arrangements to pick up your completed African mounts. As you know, we charge $25.00 per day per mount for storage, insurance etc. It has been thirty days. Your last check to us bounced. Please bring cash money to pay the balance due.

Please call us for your appointment.

Thank you for your attention to this matter. By the way, bite me!

Have a nice day and tell the family hello for me.

Kim


George, Kim, Dr. Freud

This response submitted by Michael Sestak on 5/2/05 at 8:48 PM. ( ) 152.163.100.136

like i said earlier, "i like this"...
you guys are alright or alwrong, we can agree to disagree, we can disagree to agree (huh)(LOL)
and as for Dr. Freud, didnt you know that you're supposed to be dead..
unless this isnt Sigmund.
and Dr. Phil said to tell you, you missed your last appointment with him.
( i kept mine)


Here is one for you.

This response submitted by Kim on 5/2/05 at 8:54 PM. ( ) 69.171.240.121

As long as everyone agrees with me, your are allowed to disagree.

Moxnix


Well my patients seem to be better!

This response submitted by Dr. freud on 5/3/05 at 1:16 AM. ( ) 63.170.184.137

So, I must go seek others in need of (perch)oops! I mean help.

regards
yes Kim, it's old me
sigmund or siggy if you must.


Remember

This response submitted by Kim on 5/3/05 at 2:52 PM. ( ) 69.171.240.121

LOL: CASH and carry!


Freud is a fraud

This response submitted by Sarah on 5/3/05 at 3:53 PM. ( ) 70.178.74.104

Yes, Freud, who admitted to being a homosexual in the late 1800's early 1900's. So if he set the standard for normal where does that leave the world?

As for the anger, I donot know why you read into my post as being angry, I simply refuse to agree with Mr. Roof on many aspects.
Mr Roof tried to impress people in his sesquipedalian ways. Most people see thru that. The ones who fall for it well that simply is not apporpriate for mention here.

However when the we dont obey Mr. Roof in a obsequious way he readily attacks us. My day was boring, but the nadir came when my Mr. Roof said if I make it thru puberty.(NOT) I will make it but will he have a stroke from any of my responses. I repudiate his attempt at trying to make me appear to be a novice. I doubt even he has read as much of the archive as I have.

The salient between Mr. Roof and I, is he most always belittles the person asking the question. I remain staid in my opinion of him and many of the oldtime board members.

Anytime anyone goes against Mr. Roofs wish or opinion he becomes vociferous.

In closing I certianly hope Mr Roof and Mr. Freud can get the help they need. They have a personailty disorder. I would guess it is from spending long hours in their shop and this is their only outlet.
So their Political opponents should be warned that theier obtuse approach to any policy will embroil the NTA in mindless game of who is right and who is wrong.

Has anyone ever heard of George admitting ot being wrong?


Sarah.......SO the point is ?

This response submitted by kiwi on 5/3/05 at 5:12 PM. ( ) 63.170.184.137

So Kish is a friend of Dr. Freud?


Sarah, all you had to do was look in the archives

This response submitted by George on 5/3/05 at 5:33 PM. ( ) 152.163.100.136

You'll see I've apologized many times. And I might be a lot of things, but sesquipedalianism is not one of my attributes, though they could be if I so desired. I find simple monosyllabic and bisyllabic and short polysyllabic words to be much more descriptive than the vernacular utilized by Daniel Webster and reported by Noah Webster. I'm really glad to see you have a good vocabulary, it will serve you well. Now just so we set the record straight, let me relate to YOU what I have previously related to another individual who seemed to particularly enjoy baiting me. "The traits you tend to most dislike in others are often traits that you, yourself, possess." I hope you live long enough to have some ideal that you feel is worth protecting from slander and subversion. If you do, read the words you've written and see how true my axiom can be.


Sarah

This response submitted by The Taxidermologist on 5/3/05 at 5:49 PM. ( stephen.rogers@comcast.net ) 24.3.179.164

I will suggest you give up on this thread. George, as well as everyone who visits this forum, have well defined ardent beliefs which are nigh impossible to change. You stood your ground well, and I admire a young person who has acheived as much as your dossier above lists, but the ability to not get drawn into battles you won't win, won't come for another decade or more.

George has been here on the forum essentially since Day 1 in 1998, back when you were 10 years old. He is like me, in that we have read every thread in this forum (save for the for sale and wanted category). You more than likely will never win a debate with him - heck he and I have had dozens of disagreements for 5 years and I'm not sure I ever won a debate.

Sarah, don't give up on this site, nor competitions, nor even the NTA. I may even rejoin again some day when it becomes a professional organization (I better put a LOL in here so I don't get hate mail).

To others reading this thread. Have you ever considered that the Uncle who passed down many of the books may have been Joe Kish? It probably isn't, but the thought did cross my mind.

Peace.


Okay

This response submitted by Michael Sestak on 5/3/05 at 5:50 PM. ( ) 64.12.116.136

this time Sarah and George are on their own, my thesaurus and dictionary are both to old to keep up with this diatribe. (LOL)


Mr. Roof did exactly as I expected

This response submitted by Sarah on 5/3/05 at 8:23 PM. ( ) 70.178.74.104

Mr Roof, see what happened! I may someday join the NTA but not while Mr. Roof is active. My feeling is as I have related, he may be a good person in person but certainly not from the way he interact with people here.

I still find it ironic that Mr Kish was fired for doing what was ask of him.

Maybe someday people who really want to learn more about taxidermy can manage to get their work judged honestly and with the firmness that it should be. I do think the WTC is pretty fair in the way its judged but the NTA show should be harder than any state level, thats the way other competitions are done.

I certainly hope, I am never and old grouch like Mr. Roof.

Mr. Sestak, I apologize for using the big words. I did so that Mr. Roof could reflect on the words he likes to use. In my opinion it is Mr. Roof's way of putting people down, without saying it in their face, subliminally you might say. His way of saying "I am better than you."

Mr Rogers, yes you are totally right, some people refuse to learn.


Sarah...

This response submitted by J J on 5/3/05 at 10:01 PM. ( sinclairsjj@aol.com ) 205.188.116.67

...you have one thing on your side that many us will never have again,youth. Cherish it,enjoy it and live it to the fullest. You seem to have a gift of expressing yourself and very well too I may add. With your opinions and comments you bring an air of freshness to these posts. Never let yourself be intimidated or admonished for your convictions. Celebrate them! I realize that there isn't anything I can do or say to reasure you of the wonderful people you might be able to meet in an organization like the NTA. What I am most concerned about is the fact that Old Timers aren't long for this earth. When I was your age,all my hero taxidermists were old timers. One by one they died off leaving me with a lifetime of memories and stories that I literally ached to share with people like you. If you remove yourself,your persona and your presence from others in this industry because of different opinions,who will be left to carry on what we,the old timers die with? George already has an opinion of you and it's not even remotely close to what you might imagine. I've seen George in his most vulnerable state which was 100 times stronger than most men on emotional steroids. The NTA and George is as bonded as white on rice. Trust me please, he's not running for Captain of the Titanic but if he was,history may have had a different ending to that iceberg theory. If there's anything one thing that George can not handle,one thing that can cause him to stop the world for,it's a disappointed kid. All of us now know how disenchanted you've become these past several days. Your sadness is our frustration because we are so limited to the printed word here. You can't see the smiles,feel the hugs or hear the excitement of an NTA convention with a thread or a post. You can't look into the eyes of Mr.Bill Haynes as he congratulates just about everyone who brings a piece to enter let alone place with. Most important,you can not meet new people who can change your whole life in a matter of a few days. I may not be the one to carry the banner or beat the drum for the NTA. But I am a veteran of a few battles and survived to say I'm glad I'm a member. At some point in time you must meet up with Jan as well. She surley is one of the most grandest ladies of our industry that I've ever met. If you had her for a coach,your destiny as a winner would be sealed. I can articulate on just about anyone here. In fact,ask Joe Kish who it was that made a photo copy of every single page of Robert Rockwell's book for him 30 years ago beacuse he couldn't find a copy of it back then. Without all or any of them,we just wouldn't be a complete world of taxidermists. Someday,I'd like to tell you about Martha Maxwell,Delia Akeley and Sally Clark. Martha wanted to learn taxidermy so bad,she went as far as...I'd better wait. I'd like you to listen to some of those stories personally someday. 'My offer' will always stand for you. Just say when.


Have we beaten this horse to death yet

This response submitted by Ted Befus on 5/3/05 at 10:44 PM. ( ) 24.72.93.227

Sarah, Joe Kish was not fired for doing what was asked of him. He was fired because he wasn't doing what was expected of him. If I was handed a score sheet that only had a score and a judges comment of "choose better mannikin" I certainly would not feel that justified the fees I paid to have that peice judged. I'm not going to refute what Joe Kish has done for this industry but what he did wasn't right. What if it was your scorecard he put that on, how would you feel. I'd bet you wouldn't be too happy. Unless the only thing that mattered was the fact that Joe Kish scored it, and you really didn't give a damn about improving your work.


By the way

This response submitted by Ted Befus on 5/3/05 at 10:46 PM. ( ) 24.72.93.227

I have had the opportunity to meet "Mr. Roof" and I can say without a doubt that he and his wife are 2 of the nicest people I met at the WTC this year.

P.S the reason he uses big words is because he knows how to use them. He was a professional writer.


What Comic Book

This response submitted by Dr Freud on 5/4/05 at 12:30 PM. ( ) 63.170.184.137

What comic book did George write?


Two Things

This response submitted by Tired of reading on 5/4/05 at 3:57 PM. ( ) 4.156.243.178

The only one not complaining about getting fired WITH PAY is Mr Kish.
Sarah you said you hope you never are a "OLD GROUCH " like Mr Roof, I don't think you will be but I do think you will be a Old Maid.


Sarah IS Cecil

This response submitted by Truth on 5/5/05 at 9:51 PM. ( ) 69.171.240.121

Hello Cecil....


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