7mm vs. 300 mag..and compared to the .270 win

Submitted by jim starr on 3/10/06 at 9:53 PM. ( desertstar_taxidermy@yahoo.com ) 216.31.71.142

george..hi ! this is jim starr...i know i am kinda late on this subject but have been away for a few days. i read the post about your book you wrote. and read you opinion about the 7mm remington magnum. you seem to know alot about guns. i am not saying that what you wrote in your book was wrong..because i am assuming you stated your opinion and not actual facts regarding the 7mm mag. i live in new mexico...it is very open country here and the the average shooting distance on any large game animal with the exception of bull elk is in excess of 500 yards. i have had to reach out and touch o'l bucks at 1200 to 1400 yards many times. now i am gonna say this and it's not my opinion...this is a fact...as a federal certified firearms instuctor and with 30 years of experience under my belt..i have owned every deer caliber known to man and hunted most big game. for antelope..i loved my little 25-06 remington modle 700. for elk..well i am partial to my .411 BJ express..if you are not sure what that is..well..it's a .375 Holand and Holand case expanded up to accept the .411 cal. bullet..i prefere the 300 grain hollow point. as for the 300 holand and holnd..well it needs to stay in holland lol..and keeps it's back side away form open country and long distance shots. we also hunt, (i have 3 record book) barbary (auodad) sheep here in new mexico..and alot of mule deer. now hunting barbary is quite a chellenge here..not like texas. not knocking texas, so dont anyone take me wrong..our country is just alot more rugged and the sheep are found at greater distances. 800 yards is avereage. now george...i have killed barbary sheep with the .50 cal remington 700 in-line muzzle loader all the way up to the .411 BJ express i own...this includes the .270 win...the 7mm rem. mag..300 win mag...7mm.-o8, 308 win. 308 norma mag, .338 win. mag, and the 30-06 win. i can tell you as a certified distinguished weapons expert and certified police sniper / observer instructor...if you hunt barbary sheep in new mexico in the same territory i hunt in...you are almost pissing in the wind with anything samller than 7mm rem. mag. i shot two barbary with me .270 win. 1st was hit 9 times before it buckled and the second was hit 7 times before she buckled. both were hit behind the front shoulder and neck shot twice. i dont like murdering my game..and thats what you feel like when its not a one shot kill.! i wish i could talk more but this is geting long...i will say this..as far as distance and energy...i dont know where you received your information..but it is a proven fact the 7mm rem. magnum will outdistance the 300 win. mag all day long. the 300 drops off to quick while the 7mm is still stable and gainihng altitude. sorry! but its true. the .270 is great gun..i have 5 of them..but..i only owned 1 30-06 and sold it the day after the hunt was over..as for the 300 win mag...if i were hunting alaska or canada..the 300 would stay home the 411 would go with me.. for the amount of recoil delivered in the 300 win. mag..way to over rated. now..if i hunted a dense area with shrubs and brush and distance was not a problem..the .308 win would be my choice..it is comparable to the 30-06 with half the recoil..and is already proven as a versitile weapon..ask any police dept. in america. nough said..yall have fun with this..but if you wnat the proof i'll be happy to research it and send it to you. sorry! george..black is balck and white is white and when it comes to an effective one shot kill...the 7mm mag towers over the 270 and 30-06 in distance shots. jim starr

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Jim............

This response submitted by Paul B on 3/10/06 at 10:09 PM. ( bears@att.net ) 24.236.222.110


How many inches does your bullet drop (any caliber) at over 3/4 of a mile?

PB


Me smells a little Bull..........

This response submitted by Does not matter on 3/10/06 at 10:28 PM. ( ) 69.171.240.121

.....KaKa...

OH Please!


I am a good ol' boy

This response submitted by Tony J. on 3/10/06 at 10:35 PM. ( ) 208.135.164.231

As long as I can get him down quickly, thats all I care about. I use a .270, thats the one I grabbed at walmart. I did use a 30-30 till I shot at a big buck at 250 yards. The old buck looked back at me and kept walking. I live in the east, no long shots usually, so I hunt with my iron sight 30-30 most of the time. Never had a deer run over 50 yards. I have noticed however, with the .270 using core lock bullets, the exit hole is small. Looks like no knockdown power, nickel sized exit hole. Like I said though both deer I shot were at 30 yards. I think I will start shooting a different bullet, like a silver tip or somthing. but as far as getting high-teck..... naw I am just a good ol' boy hunting White Tails, what you said might as well be japanise. lol I'm sticking to my guns....LMAO


Jim, I'm not saying that's a lie

This response submitted by George on 3/11/06 at 12:00 AM. ( georoof@aol.com ) 152.163.100.6

..But it's a damned good way to get one started if it isn't. You know 500 yards is over a quarter of a mile. At 500 yards a .270 with a 130 grain bullet drops 40 inches when zeroed at 200.It delivers 1087 foot pounds of energy. The .300 Win Mag using 150 grain bullet only drops 35 inches When zeroed at 250 yards and delivering 1095 pounds of energy. Now comes the 7mm. Zeroed at 250 yards with a 150 grain bullet, it drops 35 inches but can only muster 952 pounds of energy. Thats 48 foot pounds of energy LESS than the accepted lethality of 1000 foot pounds of energy needed to humanely dispatch deer sized game or larger.

So, not only do I think the 7mm is just a "tweener" gun that is useless to ME, the ballistics tell the same story.

And Paul, you're absolutely right. Unless an animal is paralyzed and standing stock still, the bullet is going to have to compensate for any wind any animal movement, and still have a three foot hold over.
In my estimation, people "routinely" taking shots at 500 yards are pissing into the wind - literally. So you can guess what I think of the 1000 yard shots.


And I'll stack my .270 against any .308

This response submitted by George on 3/11/06 at 12:20 AM. ( ) 152.163.100.6

I took it as a backup gun to my .300 some years ago in British Columbia. We were hunting black bear, elk, mountain goat and moose. My buddy carried a Weatherby .300 and when he shot his goat, he lost his balance and the Weatherby took the nose dive with the goat, shattering the stock and busting the scope glass. The only gun available for the rest of his hunt was my .270. He took both an elk and a moose with it and both were single shot kills. You can talk all the ballistics and googaws you want, but shot placement is the key. As I've said before, and I said it in the book, those are MY OPINIONS and at this point in my life, I don't see a lot of area left to change my convictions for whats worked for ME.


Long shot

This response submitted by mark on 3/11/06 at 1:30 AM. ( zoombug57@peoplepc.com ) 209.179.168.56

I too am from New Mexico and i know of (no) hunters that take 500 yard shots on the average. Sure there are some long shots 400 yards being my greatest to date. I dont know where you hunt or how but it seems a stretch to say 500 yards is the norm. Myself i would have more respect for the guy that could stalk into knife range to kill there game. To me thats what its all about getting close.


1200 Yd. B.S.

This response submitted by Wayne on 3/11/06 at 3:53 AM. ( ) 24.66.94.140

Mr. Starr---------Kinda tells us what kind of HUNTER you are, when you brag about how far you can shoot rather than how CLOSE you can, and should get for a quick and sure humane kill. No wonder the Anti's have fuel for debates


My 243 is the best

This response submitted by Doug P from New Milford PA on 3/11/06 at 7:02 AM. ( ) 71.255.140.92

I have shot 100's maybe a 1000 dear with my magnaported 243. I have taken my best shot at about 600 yards and I held it dead on while the deer was on the move. My brother Larry who is not as good of a shot as me can only take 400 yrd shots but his 243 magnaported rifle he is dead on too. One of these days I will write a book on all my deer kills. I have lived here for almost 20 years now and I do some taxidermy not really for money so I don't need a licence but some day I will show the world what a great taxidermist I 'm too. I should get a huning licence as well too while I'm at it. Just joking I do get one from time to time. D Perry


George.......

This response submitted by Ken on 3/11/06 at 7:04 AM. ( ) 72.161.161.174

Do you have any Idea how much the bullet would drop in this "supposed" 1200yd shot? Just curious.....

Yeah Right.


22 long rifle is the best!

This response submitted by Shawn on 3/11/06 at 8:39 AM. ( ) 4.154.134.130

The trick is gettin' em through the eye! Seriously though, if you watch the one show on the outdoor channel (maybe the Best of the West?), they show some unbelievable long distance shooting at yotes and antelope with a modified scope system that calculates windage and elevation. I never really payed attention to the caliber of rifles they shoot, but they would be the authority over some of the so-called experts here.


500 Yards!

This response submitted by JP on 3/11/06 at 9:13 AM. ( ) 24.147.192.28

With all due respect to calibers used ABOVE .243 for big game shots, if you have to blast away at animals at extreme range, you're NOT hunting! That's just shooting. There is more b.s. regarding caliber selection than any other topic, excepting that currently issuing from the various orifices of the democratic party. Given proper bullet weight and construction, they will ALL work, if used wisely. If one uses a high quality mil-dot scope, coupled with a range finder to produce hits at over 500 yards, you're obviously a talented soul behind the rifle. One thing you are not, however, is a hunter. Our pastime ( not"sport" mind you, because it is far more important than mere sport), is under constant attack from antis.Saying this or that will give the more fuel is a cliche, they are already full of "fuel". If all a person sees a game animal as is a target for his "rig", they are better off taking up another pastime. Leave the gadgets at home, learn your limits, get close, and be ethical. You'll enjoy the HUNT so much more.


The answer is simple.

This response submitted by Rick Carter on 3/11/06 at 9:13 AM. ( ) 205.188.116.130

There are far too many variables involved to have a real solution to the argument you guys are creating. It is simply arguing for the enjoyment of the fight. If there was one perfect caliber we could get by with only one rifle. Everyone's favorite gun is the one that they have the most confidence in and has performed well for them. Favorite hunting spots, big deer, quality time with friends & family, one shot kills, etc.etc. Just taking an old gun out of the cabinet can bring back many fond memories. All of these things are factors. The entire matter can be narrowed down to shot placement. Clear shots and practice make for an efficient combination no matter what caliber you use. You could also make the argument that the scope is more important than the rifle you attach it to. Go ahead and wear that one out!


Bullet drop should be off the scale

This response submitted by George on 3/11/06 at 9:44 AM. ( ) 64.12.116.6

If a 150 grain bullet, sighted at zero at 250 yards drops 35 inches(3 feet). At 1000 yards, I'd suspect that the drop would be more like 12 to 15 FEET. That's one helluva lot of "Kentucky windage".


Well,,my old Daisy

This response submitted by Mr.T on 3/11/06 at 10:49 AM. ( ) 64.31.6.56

aint what it use to be. It drops three feet at thirty feet. But after about five shots, I can knock the tin can off of the post.
NO LIE!


AS long as were talking guns, 243 or 25 WSSM ?

This response submitted by Mike on 3/11/06 at 11:17 AM. ( ) 64.91.85.110

Anyone tried these calibers? I just got a A-Bolt in 25 WSSM for WI whitetails primarily. Haven't shot it yet. I like the idea of shooting a 120 gr. bullet and having the option to go smaller for predators. I read there may be cycling problems with the short fat rounds, but I tried it a few times without firing and seems fine. From my research I guess the 25 WSSM is identical ballistically to the .25-06, but I chose the shorty.


Mr. Starr Must Have A Defective Rangefinder

This response submitted by D Cook on 3/11/06 at 11:57 AM. ( ) 153.26.176.34

Shooting deer 3/4 mile away? Having to shoot an animal 7 to 9 times before it drops leads one to believe that the gentelman is either a poor shot or the sheep is on PCP. I have heard police officers tell storys about people that are like that.


I have...................

This response submitted by Paul B on 3/11/06 at 1:09 PM. ( bears@att.net ) 24.236.222.110

243 wssm, and I like it a lot. Good for deer or vermin. Topped it off with a Leuopold VX-III 4 x 12, very fine shooting tool. It's a bit faster the a standaed 243 with less recoil. I anm not sure how the 25 differs from the 25-06, I know when I lived in Tx the 25-06 was popular for deer,. They were very loud too.

PB


What are

This response submitted by Alex on 3/11/06 at 1:50 PM. ( ) 66.245.127.238

You guys using for measurement of yards ?

500 yards if a longway to shoot let alone 1200 yards, a deer at 1200 yards looks about the size of a mouse.

Stop exageratting. LOL


Darn

This response submitted by Mike on 3/11/06 at 5:31 PM. ( ) 63.232.24.159

Imagine what he could do with a 4 foot blowgun. LMAO


Superstarr

This response submitted by Brian on 3/11/06 at 6:00 PM. ( ) 67.50.235.171

Well Mr. certified distinguished weapons expert and certified police sniper / observer instructor, and taker of record book sheep; You sound like a couple of blowhard cops that I know that suffer from "supercop" syndrome! Please don't get me wrong, I'm a supporter of law enforcement and I have good friends who are good cops. But I know guys like you and they, like you, are just dripping with self aggrandizement. The only reason you posted this BS spew is so that ,in your mind, people would think you're the ultimate certified distinguished weapons expert and certified police sniper / observer instructor, taker of record book sheep, and hunter of most big game! You should be ashamed to call yourself a hunter. Your knowledge of ballistics is suspect to me as well. You state that "the .300 drops off fast while the 7mm is still gaining altitude". I've got news for ya there expert; there is not a single bullet from ANY gun that gains altitude or climbs. EVERY bullet begins to drop the nanosecond it leaves the muzzle. Ah good ol gravity! I think the definition of the word "expert",in your case, is an "ex" is a has been and a "spurt" is a drip under pressure. Sorry Jim, black is black and white is white and you're full of órape.


my response tonight to those who doubt....

This response submitted by jim starr on 3/11/06 at 9:28 PM. ( ) 216.31.71.67

i didn't mean to start a stink but, obviously i have. so in response...especially to brian! brian (sir) you appearantly have a problem that would require something more than words to repair. seems with cops too! but thats none of my business..however..i do live in new mexico..artesia, new mexico. i had one guy respond the same way and said it was impossible for me to hit him standing at 1000 yards with a 7mm rem. mag. well..here's what we did! and i have plenty of witnesses to back it up. we drew a silouette of "Don" and we went to the firing range. our range has a 1000 yard burm. we practice our shots there all the time by the way! we set the silouette of him up and he said he would pay 100 dollars for each center mass (chest) hit. well..i took him for 500.00 dollars in five consecutive shots and i asked him if i should then continue to take his money..he said no and shook my hand. now, this is a fact. as for my furthest shot...with a 7mm mag. well.if i told you, i promise you would not believe me and i would not want to be laughed at any further..but i will say this..it was further than than most people can see a deer even with optics. now..if we want to talk one shot kills and being a humanitarian..well "carlos hathcock" aka: "white feather" made consistanat shots with the browning .50 cal at 2500 and 2700 yards with the proper optics and knowing his wind velocity, distance and bullet value. " oh buy the way..his observer advised him how many clicks to adjust his scope for elevation and windage. if you know the value of your bullet( hey brian this does not mean the cost you paid at wallmart for factory crap ammo) and your wind velocity and distance..you can simply use mathmateics to adjust your scope for point of aim to point of impact. if you are truely knowledgeable in this area..you wount think others are lying and you surely wount become a fool yourself. as for the gentleman who lives in new mexico..well..all i can say is come on down to artesia and look me up..be happy to take you out hunting..when you see a buck across dog canyon and you climbed all day to get there and then you know you dont have time to stalk in for a close shot..while you pass up a 200 lb plus 5x5 muley you can sit back and watch me dump him at 1400 yards. then i will say..see ya at the truck and better luck next year! now..one more thing..george has been pushing the issue of knock down at certain distances witha 150 gr. 7mm bullet. number one george i hand load my rounds for my 25-06, .270, 7mm, and 411 BJ. i can tell you this..you need to step away from knock down..foot pounds of energy is great at close range. hydrastatic shock and muscle tissue dissruption is what i look for. in my 7mm mag. i shoot a 130 ballistic tip nosler. now it does not have much knock down..but it does have a great ammount of hydrastatic shock. i will take shock over knock down any day at long range. knock down is good up to 300 yards after that..again..too much drop and a wasted shot "in my opinion". but, my thoughts keep coming to this..if a man tells you the trueth about his ability and gives his opinion..i see nothing wrong with that at all..but, when you doubt a man is telling you the trueth and bash him for giving his opinion..well...there's the problem! all you have to doo is look in the mirror and point your finger at yourself and say..."there's the problem looking at me right there!" i wouldn't lie to you guys...or B.S you at all! oh and a 500 yard sghot is common in new mexico..but most guys wount take it because they practiced at 100 yards, sighted at 100 yards, and never even tried a 500 yard shot at the range in their life! the average hunter that decides to throw a bullet at 500 yars winds up missing anyways..they didn't condition for the shot and was just hoping to make a hit. my thought's, my opinion! jim starr
ps: if you want the mathmatics for range-velocity-bullet value e-mail me personally at desertstar_taxidermy@yahoo.com. be gald to give you the mathmatics..you wount be leleive what your .270 win will do then...but dont forget to take into consideration..if you sight your rifle in sept. at 87 degrees..then go hunt with it in nov. at 52 degrees..your bullet will plummit to the ground due to heavier air mass...humm! maybe thats why george is giving the rifles such a drastic drop meassurement..oh well..anyways..let me know! jim


oh and the slam for shooting the barabary too many times!

This response submitted by jim starr on 3/11/06 at 9:39 PM. ( ) 216.31.71.67

i see why you menttioned the animal rights activists tear you up there! i failed to say, the barbary sheep that i shot 9 times and 7 times..with the .270 were only at a distance of 150 yards. now, my buddy roy and my dad were with me and can verify the shots were directly placed..and proper, but..they just wouldnt go down. better to keep hammering than have a lost animal. i have witnessed my buddy "Bob" from trueth or consequences, new mexico hammer a barabary 29" horns..at about 75 yards broad side standing with 300 win mag. the barbary was hit behind the front shoulder and just pumped up and took off running up a hill...he finally dropped it at 150 yards after two neck hits and two more behind the front shoulder with 180 grain partition nosler...i wasn't saying all shots are 500 to 1400 but there are times when they are and i am prepaired to make them..i am serious when i hunt..and i dont lose animals either!


oh and brian...one more thing!

This response submitted by jim starr on 3/11/06 at 9:58 PM. ( ) 216.31.71.67

if i am full of "crap" as you put it...oh i am speaking of reference your statement about bullet rise and fall..you said a bull begins to drop the second it leaves the muzzle..brian..first of all...if you dont know anymore than that about ballisitics and measurement..please dont respond again..you are truely pathetically wrong and delivering false information to people on this board who at times request information for help in sighting and point of aim point of impact vs. '6-o'clock hold. sir! bullets do not begin to drop upon leveaving the muzzle..they rise sire..quite high actually. i dont rely on books or videos for ballistics..i oload my loads and go measure myself for bullet drop..from 100 yards to 1400 yards..for instance its july in new mexico..i am shoot my 7mm mag. at 100 yards she is zeroed..point of aim point of impact. 130 ballsitic tip nosler. ok the air temperature is 104:f. my first shot is at 25 yards to zero the scope for the rifles bore. now i take a shot at 100 yards with the same bullet..same air temperature and i find that the bullet rose 2 inches high at 100..vs. 25...humm bullets do rise..ok now i takea shot at 150 yards ..hummlook still high...1 1/8 inch...damn whats up here..bullet is still rising..now i take a shot at 200 yards.. humm! 3/4 high. but at 225 yards i am zeroed again...wow! whats up with this? i am zeroed at 25 yards...2" high at 100 yards and zeroed again at 225 yards..brian your an idiot..the rise of the muzzle alone during recoil would not allow the bullet to drop instantly..go to school and learn something..or get some experience then come back later. jim starr
oh i ment to add..then i take the zeroed rifle out in novemeber in 52;f and find i cant hit the braod side of a barn cause the bullet drops 40 inches at 250 yards..wonder why? temperature change maybe?


Mr Starr

This response submitted by JP on 3/11/06 at 10:29 PM. ( ) 24.147.192.28

I believe that D Cook is right, those New Mexico sheep are obviously on PCP, hence the necessity to shoot them nine times with the 270. I only hope that you read them their rights before you began the fusillade of bullets!


hey george did you read "Jack O'conner"?

This response submitted by jim starr on 3/11/06 at 10:36 PM. ( ) 216.31.71.67

hey gearoge i was just curious..i saw where you mentioned jack oconner stated he prefered the .270 win. that is true sir he did! he took most of his big game, including african, if i am correct with the .270 win. but, did you happen to read or mention his choice of cartridge for his wife elenor? been a few years for me since i studied his work! he chose the (7x57) or 7mm mauser for her..did you read why? well..she was a feminine woman,,,not real large at all if you've seen her photos. the 7mm according to Mr. O'conner was one of the flatest shooting rounds available..even more so "he said" than the .270..with less recoil..she could handle the rifle and recoil well..and i might add the (7x57) 7mm mauser has also knocked down more elephants in affirca than any other rifle on the face of the earth..why you ask? simple, its all that's used over there by poachers! humm! did you or anyone else for that fact see him chose the 300 savage....30-30...308 win...30/06 win. 30/40 craig..ak-47..lol..303 british..again ..lol!he never chose a (.308) 30 caliber round in his entire life..he was noted as one of the highest experts in the...field..balistics...hand-loading and i might add as an authour he was great! but, the fact is he never chose a 30 cal. bullet for anything! they just dropped off to quick! sorry so long! could go on all night re-buting folks who are highly mistaken about ballistics.


"jp" what?

This response submitted by jim starr.. on 3/11/06 at 10:45 PM. ( ) 216.31.71.67

no i don't believe they are sir..but due to the high rugged terrain they travel daily, they do build quite the muscle and it is very difficult to get penetration to the vitals with energy left in the bullet. as far as reading them their rights! well..i dont believe animals talk or think as they did in the movie "thumper" or "the lion king" or any other hollywood chikldrens program..i do believe "sir" in humane harvesting! one shot harvests when possible..and most generally the case..if you have never hunted a new mexico barbary sheep..i dont mean a poor little baby! i mean a huge 250 pound plus..27 inch plus ram! then sir..you need to give it a run for your money..unless of course you want a one shot hit and then are going to pay someone for days of searching to find you'r sheep probably ruint and half eaten by mountain lions! cause you were fool enough to let it run off wounded. .338 win mags have a rough time keeping one down PJ. my .411 express does nicely out to 300 yards but after that..it drops off quick..so i carry a 7mm mag for back up long range shots. nough said! jim


And the wind continues to blow.........

This response submitted by Not Important! on 3/11/06 at 10:48 PM. ( ) 69.171.240.121

............We can shoot the BS all night long but, the facts are a bit different from what most people WISH they were.

A well placed shot from a suitable caliber with an impact energy of at least 1,000 ft pounds will do the job on most North American Game. The key word is impact energy.

To openly state and perhaps even boast about taking 500 hundred yard plus shots and much longer is WRONG and NOT the way to teach or fairly hunt game giving then the respect they deserve from a single shot.

MOST people that hunt big game, are not qualified to take long shots at game. Also, the impact energy is so far down the the scale at such a distance, the bullet will not do the job as effective as it WOULD at a much closer range.

Some people just watch too much crap on television or they really believe the bull from the authors that write such junk.

SURE, you can kill at a long distance away. BUT it is NOT the correct or ethical thing to do. Most game will get away and die from a wound if it is even hit at all.


Jim, bullsh1t by any other name smells the same

This response submitted by George on 3/12/06 at 8:36 AM. ( georoof@aol.com ) 64.12.116.6

Karamojo Bell killed an elephant with a .270 once. He did pull the bullet and invert it so that the solid copper base would prevent expansion and he did shoot it from less that 25 yards.

You can espouse all that handloading crap you'd like, but you can't alter physics. As someone already stated, EVERY BULLET begins to drop as soon as it leaves the barrel. Unless you were using a .270 with a bull barrel from a shooting platform, I'd forever question your ability to hit a human sized target consistently from 1000 yards. I don't care how much money you won. As for "crappy factory ammo", that seems a rather elitist standpoint. Some people enjoy reloading, I enjoy shooting. Sure you can get more from a handload, but the factory loads work quite well in my firearms. I have a friend who reloads much of my ammo, but if I run out, I just pick up a box off the shelf.

Back to your lack of physics knowledge. Foot pounds of energy is quite important. "Hydrostatic shock" cannot take place unless the bullet has enough terminal velocity of overcome rapid expansion. Otherwise, just like shooting groundhogswith 55 grain spitzers, you'd want to bullet to expand quickly. That same bullet on a deer at the same range, likely "explodes" outside the body cavity, and leaves much to be desired as to lethality.

How the .50 BMG got into this I'll never know. Sure it requires a spotter, but let me tell you this straight up. If I were standing at 2500 yards and that round passed closeby, the "crack" of the supersonic bullet would let me know someone didn't want me standing there. By the time any spotter told the gunner to make the adjustment, I'd hope I'd be smart enough to move and move quickly.

And ANYONE who'd carry a 7mm as a BACKUP to a .338 has been a little too close to the cactus juice for my liking. The .338 can do anything the 7mm can and MORE. Trajectories are about the same for the bullet weights. And yes, I've read all of O'Connor's works and he never made any such statement about the 7mm MAGNUM. The 7mm MAUSER is just a wimp compared to the modern day ballistics in modern day firearms. Now I know that some people are extremely recoil sensitive, but like a lot of other things in life, if you can't run with the big dogs, maybe you should stay on the porch. I have a Sako .375 H&H that can literally rock your world, but I shoot it. I just know that it's going to thump me when I touch it off, but faced with a bad animal wanting to make me part of the food chain, I want my gun to be accurate. Someone who thinks the .270 kicks too much certainly should be taking on coastal brown bears or Cape buffalo. That's just a fact of life (or sudden death in this case).


george i agree with you!

This response submitted by jim starr on 3/12/06 at 9:47 AM. ( ) 216.31.71.229

i agree to a point with what you are saying..but as far as the 50 bmg and geting out of the way..well check out some of the iraqi shots that are on the internet right now. wow! those boys didn't get a second chance to move out of the way! as far as 338 for back up..i would use it but, it has too much drop..as for a bullet dropping the second it comes out of the barrel that would be true if the design of the barrel was flat, but they'r not they are designed at an upward angle to compensate for the drop ..so,in reality they dont drop! as far as factory ammo..i am with you. if i run low or just want to go plinking..i too use factory ammo. factory ammo on the market today even supercedes some handloads from the past! but..my point on accuracy and expansion is in handloding..take the ballistic tip nosler. wow! no there is a round that will penetrate and expand at long range. would i use if for alaskan browns, moose, african lion and such..NO WAY ! but we were not talking about huge game or lethal game in the beginning of this subject. we were talking 7mm mag apposed to 300 mag and the comparison to the 270. the 270 is a fantastic round..so is the 7mm mag. the 300 mag is a great round as well. i was just stating the 7mm mag in my opinion out performs the 300 mag. in long range shootoing. have a great day! jim


Superstarr, You're overpaid!

This response submitted by Brian Almberg on 3/12/06 at 10:04 AM. ( ) 67.50.235.59

Just as I figured, you show up and prove to everyone, beyond doubt, that you're an ignorant dolt. You can take all of that condescending drivel and shove it up your buttplate. The FACT remains that bullets DON'T, CAN'T climb. Draw an imaginary line right down the center of your barrel and extend it out the muzzle ad infinitum. It's a physical impossibility for your bullet to rise above that imaginary line. I don't care what the damn temperature is. To hit a downrange target, you have to raise your muzzle so as to lob the bullet in an arc. Hmmm lets see here the bullet crosses your LINE OF SITE, hmmm whats going on here!? You know the sad thing is that you are a federal certified firearms instuctor with 30 years of experience under your belt and you are clueless to the most basic ballistic facts, and it takes a guy with a high school education to set you straight!


brian..noone said it would cross your line of sight!

This response submitted by jim starr on 3/12/06 at 10:47 AM. ( ) 216.31.71.229

i said due to the design of the bore and recoil the bullet does rise. if you draw that same imaginary line from your sights strait out to infinity you will find that the bullet does rise above the line of sight then "lobbs" to the point of aim - point of impact..thus the bullet does rise. hell, arguing with you is like arguing with with a woman over her receipes and whos is best! i can clearly see you are all butt hurt and trying to twist words to appear correct. remember! i said the design of the bore compensates for the drop thus causing the bullet to rise above the sight line then drop to the point of impact! the drop in a 300 mag. is more than the drop in a 7mm mag. thus causing a person to have to cempensate or as you put it allow more "lob"...as far as knock down i agree the 300 mag does have more knock down at close range. but, the 7mm mag supercedes the 300 mag at long range in velocity..of course bullet weights and ballistic coefficiency must also come into play. now..if you take a revolver and turn it upside down on a flat surface on its sights..you will see that the barrel is designed in a downward angle..humm! down ward. but a rifle is designed in a upward angle. why? well as stated above explains the rifle. but a handgun with a down ward angle is due to the fact that it is not shoulder mounted and is held in the hands. the recoil will be in an upward motion thus..the bore is designed down compensating for the recoil effect. when the handgun is fired the bore rises to the point that the muzzle then becomes in-line with where the sights were at the time the handgun was fired and at that point the bullet leaves the barrel. at this point the bullet leaves the barrel...and is in-line with the chosen target and the sights are now above the target area. of course if you push the gun forward at the time it fires now you have taken away the bore design and you compenstated for the shot and you will hit low. go back to school! jim


oh darn i forgot to tell you!

This response submitted by jim starr on 3/12/06 at 11:21 AM. ( ) 216.31.71.229

you dont rais your barrel to hit your target as you stated above..you simply make the proper adjustments to your sights. your sights will take all the guess work out of raising and lowering your barrel to strike your target. i dont have all day to go over proper sight adjustments for long range shooters. but, i will say this..when you sit here telling people who are reading that you raise your barrel to hit a target beyond your point of aim - point of impact sight in..and "lob" yuor bullet to it's striking point..man you need some education on using your sight adjusments. if that's what you do to hit a target..rais your barrel..you need help! there are plenty of optics on the market today that takes the guess work out of it..stop raising your barel and go buy some potics that has a bullet drop compensator and learn how to use it "properly". if yu have ever watched or been to a national match..you will see that for each distance the shooter makes sight adjustments. they hit they'r targets consistantly as well as i do, out to and beyond 1000 yards. usually firing distances measured in "meter's" which i believe are measurements greater than yards. there is alot involved in placing such shots but, it can be done! we wount even disguss "surgical" shot placement today either ! yes it took training and 30 years of experience to learn how ! and i am proud of it! i dont bash your achievements..please don't bash mine! jim


>>Look at me! Look at me! I know how to go bang, bang!<<

This response submitted by Not Important on 3/12/06 at 12:21 PM. ( ) 69.171.240.121


This is so funny! The wind is bellowing hard. Everyone put the things you need to be sand blasted ouside and toss some sand into the air. The gusts of boasting and bragging and ever present ego are going to clean and strip anything!

By the way Brian, you are correct with what you say!


Jim when you find yourself in a hole, the secret to get out

This response submitted by George on 3/12/06 at 1:16 PM. ( ) 64.12.116.6

is to stop DIGGING. EVERY BULLET EVER FIRED FROM A GUN PASSES YOUR LINE OF SIGHT TWICE. NO EXCEPTIONS. If it didn't, your bullet would be "x" low at the muzzle and continue to go towards "-X" down range since your sight (either fixed or telescopic) sits ABOVE the line of the bore of the firearm. That's why you sight a firearm in at 25 which is close to the point it first crosses your line of sight going up and at "200" yards for a zero where it crosses your line of sight coming back down. Why do you think most people want their bullet to hit 2 inches high at 100 yards? Because if the bullet is elevated at the midpoint, it will likely be back to "0" at 200 yeards. You need to get a good set of ballistics tables and see just how good that .270, .300 Win Mag, or .338 Win Mag truly are before you start preaching about carrying an expensive boat paddle like that 7 mm. And on those ballistic tables, I dare you to show me ONE SINGLE INSTANCE where a 7mm is outperforming a .300 either in velocity OR in foot pounds of energy with equal weight bullets. Aint' happening. In fact the .338 outperforms the 7mm in similar weight bullets.


338 lapua

This response submitted by JC on 3/24/06 at 10:42 AM. ( ) 66.49.112.146

I'll take my .338 over any caliber past 800m any day of the week.


WOW

This response submitted by BRAD RAGAN on 3/24/06 at 6:40 PM. ( HEFTY61@hotmail.com ) 66.217.41.150

why bash jim?its common pratice to make what some east coast hunters consider super long impossible shots wher he is from.I hunt in n.y most of my life 100-200 yds and some less when stalking.but where jim is from its a very different hunt but you only spend the time and money to learn.I love my 270 for most hunts but a 300 wb or 7mm would be the trick in jims neck of the woods .ps cant we all just get along...


300 win mag vs. 7mm rem mag

This response submitted by zefireman on 3/25/06 at 3:29 PM. ( zefireman@aol.com ) 66.24.224.223

ok.. i'm not too concerned about foot pounds here.. just trying to take some coyotes at long range.. and for me that's about 500 max... i'm more concerned about sighting in at 400 yds. and recoil.. ps i'll probably reload the brass... any ideas..? so far i'm leaning to the 7mm mag..! i alreay have a 7mm-08 in thompson center tcr 83 single shot with the double triggers..
might even scope that better...?


NRA HIGH POWER

This response submitted by Kool Jerk on 3/26/06 at 12:36 PM. ( ) 207.200.116.6

I want every one here to contact CMP, get an M1 Garrand, Have it acurized and spend ten years shooting the National Match Course. Then you will understand that the man is the weapon, not the contraption in his grasp. 600 yards is easy pickin' for a 308 or 30-06 with aperture sights. Try Palma Match at 800, 900, 1000 yds with a 308 firing a 155g bullet. The " X " ring is only 10 inches accross and full of holes. Wind is easy to dope through a spotting scope. The other calibers are only spliting hairs. Pumped up education is no substitue for experience in the REAL WORLD and money won't buy you truth. Bullet holes in paper don't lie, diplomas do.


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