george..i haev a question !

Submitted by jim starr on 3/13/06 at 10:41 PM. ( ) 216.31.71.170

ok..you say the 300 mag out performs the 7mm mag. ok..your opinion i will honor. if in fact the 300 mag is such a wonderfull cartridge then i would assume my next investment would be even better. i am wanting to purchase either the 300/378 weatherby aka: (30-378) or the .338/378 weatherby. now the case of course is much larger and packs alot more powder than either of the 7mm or 300 mag's. i have yet to see a ballsistoics table for either of these fireamrs but, have been told (rummor only) that it is capable of harvesting large game animals in excess of 1000 yards in a single shot. now do you believe this or is this a fable as well? was just wondering if you had seen any ballistics on either of these cartridges..i havent. if you have..would you mind sharing some info? if they had it in a 7mm/378 weatherby of course i would take it over the 300 or 338 cal. bullet..due to velocity of course! i love LSD (long slow distance) shooting! you know..you fire the shot..have a cup of coffee..then watch for the round to strike it's target! ..you probably figured that out by now though! lol ! any info would help..jim

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LSD

This response submitted by another star on 3/13/06 at 11:02 PM. ( ) 70.227.1.40

Must stand for "Long Slow Death" because anyone that would take a shot at the distances you are calling for is not a hunter and has no business even being allowed to have a hunting licenses. Learn to hunt and you will not need to take your long slow death shots.


The .30-378 is still in the realm of "wildcat" calibers

This response submitted by George on 3/13/06 at 11:25 PM. ( georoof@aol.com ) 64.12.116.132

I have a customer who has a customized .30-378. His first game was the North American wild sheep and mountain goats, but he did take it to Africa on two separate occasions for plains game. He took tsessebee, kudu, sable, and eland with no problems. He also used it on impala, jackal and warthog only to find that it was a little too much of a good thing. He did take a leopard with it and that too seemed a little much. When he decided to go after cape buffalo, however, the PH was adamant that he use a much bigger and subsequently slower round. He bought a .416 Rigby.

In North America I see no reason to go outside the .300 Win Mag though I own several others above that just for giggles. The .338 Rem Mag is just a nasty round as it's simply a necked down .375. I like my .375 H&H and as I said, it thumps you. Guess I'm from the Elmer Keith mentality though. I don't mind the recoil but I wouldn't think I'd like to go plinking with it.

Back to the .30-378. WHEN you can find a box of ammo, you spend $75. I don't care if you reload or not, that's a tough pill to swallow when you compare the differences in ballistics. For that much money I could buy 3 boxes of .300 Win Mag ammo.

You seem enamored with the 1000 yard lethality. The fact of life is that many firearms on the market today are more capable of doing that than the number of hunters who can do it. One Thousand yards is just not smart IN MY OPINION. If I can't get any closer than over a half a mile to my intended game animal, I'm certainly not going to piss into the wind and touch a round off for effect. Howard Hill and Fred Bear both killed elephant with a bow and arrow which says that can be done as well. I say Howard Hill and Fred Bear had lost all their excitement in life to resort to such idiocy. The fact that something COULD be done has no effect on the issue of whether it SHOULD be attempted. Hunters face enough pressure from the anti-hunting segment without some Nimrod claiming to shoot animals at 1000 yards consistently. It's little wonder they view us as being Neanderthals.


Are You.......

This response submitted by Old Fart on 3/14/06 at 12:21 AM. ( ) 64.122.137.40

.....Too clumsey to get close? My most memorable shots were never the long range ones, but the ones that require a stalk to get "real" close. I've probably shot 30+ pronghorn and only one was over 100 yards. It's just more fun to get close!

From a cost of shooting standpoint the 7mm Mag is probably the most economical. Although I've never owned one, I do have a 7 X 57 in a Model 70 that I love to shoot and is absolutely lethal. And I'd rather shoot my 375 than my 308 Norma Mag.

I do have a friend that owns a 30-378 and it's deadly in his hands, but he's the best shot I've ever seen. And it packs a lot of recoil!

I hav another friend who owns a Barrett 50, that he claims is accurate at the range you are talking about. It isn't much of a mountain climbing rifle though, being over 30 pounds. That helps with the recoil! LOL


point well taken...george!

This response submitted by jim starr on 3/14/06 at 12:43 AM. ( ) 216.31.71.170

well..george that was quite an interesting write-up you gave. i did read it carefully and did take your opinion to heart. i believe it would be a little much for some game for sure. however..i do beleive it is my next investment..by the way..i ment to ask you about elmer kieth. he built my .411 BJ express. it was given to "richard mann" a friend of mine by elmer kieth many years ago. iwas told back in the early 40's. according to richard mann..elmer built the caliber to shoot house cat's..richard then left the rifle to me. it does pack quite the recoil and if used with a scope that does not have much eye releife..well..a bloody nose and a cut above the eye is almost inevitable. now it is not the 416 bullet..it is a .411 bullet and as far as i know barnes bullet company are the only manufacturers of the .411 dia. bullet..if you know of anyone else who makes it please..let me know. .411 B-J (BARNES AND JONES) EXPRESS was what elemr named it. now the rest of this message is not point at you george, but, to the beavas & butthead advisor above your message. i could only reply that i dont hunt in the forrest or in hill country where it's treestand parties for four or hippity-hop around the next hill to get closer...the country i hunt is wide open..barely enough cover for the small land birds and the occassional lizzard. i climb half of the day, darn near straight up...4 to 5 hours..then i get to hunt for about 1 hour then it's head back to the truck and try and be there by dark. i wish i could say all my shots are close 300 yards or less..some are! but there are times when the only buck i will see all season worth taking may be standing at 500 to 1200 yards distance..with no chance due to lack of cover and especially no time for a 2 to 4 hour stalk. it's take the shot and have a successfull hunt or just plain forget it! i dont know if anyone on this site has ever hunted the corncoppias or bokeoff's or big and little dog canyon of south east new mexico.."rim country" but i do! there are huge mule deer in this area..if you see one he is commonly "big" bigger than the flat land bucks of eastern new mexico. while it's true i could hit the hill's and hunt the more covered areas..i would also be accompanied by 20 to 30,000 other hunters whith every make,caliber amnd modle of weapon known to man, i have even seen men hunting with SKS'S, with bullets being fired over my head..below my feet and on some occassions directly at me..remember..our state is mostly BLM and STATE land..we dont hunt private land leases where the amount of hunters and their locations are closely monitored by ranch hands! no..i chose the more rugged out of the way places that the majority of the average "weekend warrior" stays away from. woun't catch me in a tree stand with a round through my chest either! we have had two friends in new mexico shot by other hunters, in the more covered areas and higher populated hunting areas of eastern new mexico. i will stay with my "very open" country...i will remain in my camo's...no orange allowed!...orange things moving about in this state sometimes get shot at! learned that on my first hunt at age 14 in Arizona..after being shot at by a 15 year old girl with a .30 carbine during a javelina hunt! oh yes..had my orange hat..vest and even a red hankie around my neck..nope she thought for sure i was a javelina! she wasn't around long after that because ..later that day an ambulance arrived at the camp site at "padagonia" lake just south of tucson. we received word via the other hunting camps that the young girl had shot herself in the foot with that same .30 carbine. serves her right! No, i will continue my LSD way of "hunting" now you may "not" take it as sporting because i normally catch the game beded down or feeding quietly..but..it makes for better table fair as well. they arent all pumped up. this is due to the fact the buck didn't just come into my county at mach 5 from the adjoining county after being shot at 500 times by yahoo's with recliners in the bed of their trucks and a 24 pack in the cooler, screaming and yelling in a drunken stooper "i think i got him"! guy's i have my reasons for hunting the way i do and where i do. mostly to not be around other hunters and fly by shootings! the majority of my kills are one shot or two at the most. but, i see two shots and sometimes three on the outdoor channel on any given sat. morning. I GUESS THE OOUTDOOR CHANNEL NEEDS TO EDIT A LITTLE BETTER OR SOMETHING! i hunted in maryland a year ago last november..it was an experience to say the least. tree stand hunting..my first time ever! it was shotgun season..i was using a 10 gauge shotgun..oh i know what your thinking.."go figure!" right? 3 1/2 inch magnum slugs. i shot four deer over a period of two weeks...two bucks and two doe's...my shot placement was behind the front shoulder and center of the body..all shots less than 50 yards. after tracking all four animals for quite some distance...one was well at 1/2 mile from my tree stand before i found it..i was able to locate all four deer. now..i learned that a white tail deer can take quite a pounding and keep on going..i dont know why..but even on t.v i see them hit with 300 mag. 7mm mag. 270, 30-06-243,308 whatever..they seem to run away! mule deer are not like that..i can hit a mule deer with a 7mm mag at 800 yards and fold him. one shot! i had my brother in law in texas hit a doe with a .264 win. mag. right in the center of the chest looking at us at 75 yards..busted her flat to the ground. i thought well..that was easy! oh no!..what did she do? up and gone. 1/4 mile later we found her. now..dont tell me i am cruel or inhumane....you shoot whitetails all the time that travel much further distances..than my animals do! and you ain't fool'n me there!..been there done that! you make a 100 yard shot on a whitetail buck and then after an hour or so of waiting for him to die..you decide to go trail the blood and locate your animal. some times taken you late into the night or even the next day before you find him. i can hit a mule deer at 1000 yards..watch him closely..he might jump and run 50 to 100 yards then he will stop, look around, see that there is no threat near by and he will lay back down. when his head falls over i can go get him. but i can see him the entire time..never losing visual of him, and if i feel the need, i can hit him again thus puting him down more quickly than your 1 or 2 hour wait. so please dont talk your crap to me about ethics! jim


Bear Facts, And not Fred

This response submitted by Tenbears on 3/14/06 at 1:08 AM. ( ) 205.188.116.68

George Great response. I enjoyed it, and can see both sides of this coin. To Another star, and old fart. Simply because someone is interested in long range shooting does not make them a poor hunter, or bad sportsman. In fact Jim never actually said he hunted long range. just asked if George thought a 1000 yard kill was posable or another fable. With that said let me say this. I go to Colorado every year to hunt long range. In fact I seldom set up closer than 800 yards from the prairie dog town I hunt. I enjoy this long range sport. in areas where prairie dogs see only moderate pressure if you are much closer than 600 yards. You will only get 1 or 2 shots a day. a good bit of sheep hunting requires a hunter to be proficient at greater than 300 yards. as well as Prong horn hunting. In all actuality many firearms are capable of shooting these ranges. But the faster, and or more powerful the ammo. the greater margin for a quick kill. Many people in the eastern states simply cannot conceive an average shot being 250 yards. so they think it is foolish to prepare for them. however In Africa, New Zealand, and the western U.S. they are not unreasonable. it all depends on what one is accuston to.
BTW with my Barrett 50 I can hit a 5 gallon bucked at 2000 yards. Every time.


old fart..i know what your saying.

This response submitted by jim starr on 3/14/06 at 1:11 AM. ( ) 216.31.71.170

as far as pronghorn (antelope) heck..you should come here! if you are handicapped they will let you hunt from your truck..you don't even have to get out to shoot..you can drive right up to pronghorn here and take your pick..most are found feeding along the roadways. that is if your handicapped! if your not..well..you just park your truck walk out and again take your pick! done! no stalking required in most cases just some glassing and driving! of course thats not ethical either i guess..so we should ban pronghorn hunting in new mexico. of course i can stalk..i have spotted barbary sheep at 1400 yards and my dad and i have stalked in within 50 steps of them before we fired. i was saying..i enjoy my long distance deer hunting. on a barbary you better get close no matter what caliber you shoot. deer however are a different story..they see you and hear you in the rock slides off the rim long before you actually stop and using a spoting scope, spot them. if you attempt a stalk and are given time (daylight) to do so and they see you at any point..they are gone! and thats it. now you are just chasing ghost deer! if you or anyone else reading does not believe me..i invite you down for the deer hunt this year. you will see huge muleys with outstanding racks..but, if you cant hit them at the distance they chose to keep themselves at..you'r out of luck! as far as sporting and challenging..well bring the best boots you have for a 3 day hunt and never expect to wear them again..they will be completely destroyed by the rocks by the time the 3 days is up. jim


tenbears..

This response submitted by jim starr aka: superstarr-B.S'r, full of crap, on 3/14/06 at 1:22 AM. ( ) 216.31.71.170

there ya go tenbears! now thats my kinda shooting...now, did i hear you right? you can hit a 5 gal. bucket at 2000 yards everytime..or otherwise known as "consistantly?" humm! thats over a mile! i believe you sir..no doubt you can! my 7mm mag is not quite that..but she will reach out there! however i am inclined to believe it is possible the 30-378 may get closer to the 1600 yard mark after i have practiced a bit of course. the 30 cal. bullet just has to much drop comming out of the same case as the 7mm. thank you for the reply. jim starr aka: "superstarr" LMAO! at the nickname!


Jim, Whitetails don't run if you shoot them right

This response submitted by George on 3/14/06 at 8:13 AM. ( ) 152.163.100.8

I'd bet 90% of hunters shoot right where you did, and all that does to a whitetail is to make you follow a blood trail. I learned a valuable lesson during a culling operation some 25 years ago where we wanted to anchor the animals where they were shot. With a whitetail, if you bring your sight right up that front leg you'll see a "knob" where the upper leg bone meets the free floating shoulder blade. Put your crosshairs about 2 inches above this knob and the deer will be anchored every time with no trailing. John Wooters noted that this area seems to be the nerve center of the animal and when impacted there, actually paralyzes it. From a tree stand, I seldom have to trail any deer I shoot at and I've never trailed one that I hit correctly. So I find that the "high shoulder shot" makes shot placement that much more important.


Maybe my guns just special

This response submitted by Crittercoroner on 3/14/06 at 8:13 AM. ( ) 152.163.100.8

I shoot a 20ga H&R slug gun with 2 3/4 Winchester Supreme Sabots. EVERY deer I've shot with that have all gone less than 30 yards. Shot placement is behind the front shoulder, maybe 1/3 the way up the body, maybe a little higer than the joint above the knee. That pretty much turns everything in front of the diaphragm into jello. Dunno why you cant kill a white tail immediately with your 10 guage? Maybe the ammo you were using sucks, or the gun sucks, or maybe....


i have yet to see....

This response submitted by jim on 3/14/06 at 9:40 AM. ( ) 216.31.71.6

i have yet to see such sarcasim..i was simply noting that on the "outdoor" channel and some others as well..to include videotaped hunts and dvd's...i have watched and agree with george that in most cases, shot placement is behind the front shoulder of a whitetail deer and to my surprise they runoff. now, i will say that distance of travel does vary from deer to deer but i have seen many folks taril as far as i had to and some even further. i guess what i am saying is in my opinion..after hunting maryland, whitetail do seem to be a much harder animal to put down than a mule deer. if you watch a mule deer hunt on any program, i am sure you have seen mule deer hit and down they go..thinking..had that been a whitetail he would have jumped up and hauled to the next state. i have thought that many times. as for the 10 gauge sucking, or the slug sucking or better yet me sucking.."i know you didnt say it..just implied it" well sir, you don't even know me to be making such implications, but, your sarcasim is noted! jim


I didn't see that Jim.

This response submitted by George on 3/14/06 at 10:50 AM. ( ) 152.163.100.8

Most Eastern hunters, as you stated, haven't a clue about long distance shooting. It was a shock to me on my first speed goat hunt at the distances I was expected to shoot. I didn't have confidence in myself or my gun. It's sort of like being lost and doubting your compass. Once I figured it out, it added a whole new dimension to hunting.

But now, as for slugs, MOST WESTERN hunters don't have a clue about their effectiveness nor their accuracy. That H&R 20 guage that CC was talking about will stand toe to toe with any rifle at 100 to 125 yards. It will perform better since the slug usually weights 2 or 3 times as much with just as much energy. I use a 12 guage and the shots are always touching. The 10 guage is sort of an overkill and I'd assume someone was trying to "impress" you by handing it to you. Even the 12 in the 3 inch magnum slugs is overkill with many people becoming recoil sensative when using it. They have one out now touted to be accurate at 200 yards but I've fired that slug. It's not a fun thing and actually broke off the scope mount after about 10 shots.


forget the slug guns

This response submitted by mike r on 3/14/06 at 3:51 PM. ( ) 24.210.205.246

try one of these new muzzle loaders for deer they work great some dontlike them because they only have one shot. you just have to be a good shot


George You make me smile.

This response submitted by Tenbears on 3/14/06 at 5:10 PM. ( ) 64.12.116.132

Your comment that most western hunters don't have a clue about slug guns effectiveness, or accuracy hits a nerve. I grew up in The West. Never had any idea a shotgun could even be used for deer hunting until I was an adult. In Ohio where I now live Only slug guns are allowed. Because I had only tried pumpkin balls years ago. I had no faith in them. and when I did hunt during Ohio's Gun season. I always used My Charcoal burner. A few years ago a buddy helped me to sight my remington 1100 in with proper slugs. It now shoots a 4" group at 150 yards off hand. And I have all the confidence in the world in it. again It is all a matter of perspective. BTW great Topic Jim Star


George

This response submitted by Joe on 3/14/06 at 7:07 PM. ( ) 24.192.25.121

Why don't they try to zip up a 20 gauge slug to go a little faster so it will go farther. It already has more than enough lead there for knockdown power? Joe


My apologies

This response submitted by Crittercoroner on 3/14/06 at 11:11 PM. ( ) 205.188.116.68

Jim, sorry I came off a little gruff this morning so I'll apologize for that. Dunno if you were shooting slugs or buckshot, either are like a lightning bolt from above if accurate or patterned well. Maybe a Barret .50 would be what your looking for, if it can stop a vehicle at ranges over 1000 yards it would have more than enough nock down power for a muley. Everyone I know that has killed muleys pretty much said that they were (expletive deleted by me) compared to whitetails.

Joe, the Winchesters I'm shooting are advertised at 1900 fps, which by shotgun standards is screamin, and is accurate out to 200 yds. The slug itself is a real hollow point bullet, instead of a chunk of lead with a dimple in the tip. All of this years deer had dime size holes going in and at least baseball size holes goin out. I'd venture to say that I'd pretty much use this gun for anything that walks with the exception of a griz or polar bear, unless you put me inside a steel cage, after all, it is a single shot.


thank you crittercorner

This response submitted by jim starr on 3/14/06 at 11:36 PM. ( ) 216.31.71.3

thank you for your kind words crittercorner. i know we all have our likes and disslikes when it come to firearms anfd choice of calibers. but for the life of me i will never understand deer hunting from a tree stand and using a shotgun. lol! it was a blast...given a chance i'd do it again for sure. george you are right..the 10 ga. was handed to me by a federal firearms instructor in cheltenham maryland who said it would knock a whitetail flat. well i i gues it will if you take out the shoulders like you say. i always shot behind the shoulder though..rib cage area..to save the front shoulders for dinner! next time i will try what you said and come forward and a touch up. thank you! tenbears. though i have never fired a .50 i have seen them. i would love some day to be given a chance to squeeze one off. wow! that would be great! yall have agreat night and thank you for the info. that i ahve learned here! jim


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