why not

Submitted by tlc on 9/28/04 at 6:11 PM. ( ) 24.166.159.197

Raven...why not use Sal Soda and simmer skulls...I have not had a problem with this method. What are your thoughts?

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maybe...

This response submitted by Bill Yox on 9/28/04 at 8:41 PM. ( ) 67.138.11.138

All of us saying it cracks the teeth sooner, and stresses the skulls, isnt enough. Im willing to bet Raven says the same thing. If you MUST boil, try bringing the water to a boil first, then put the skull in for a short time. Im thinking maceration is the way to go, if you arent going to send to a dermestid service...Whattya think, Raven?


So try it

This response submitted by George on 9/28/04 at 9:34 PM. ( georoof@aol.com ) 205.188.116.138

If 250 years of experience can't convince you, DO IT. Just do only one so that when it falls to pieces on you after you let it stay too long, you won't have lost ALL your customers. LOL


its that same old argument

This response submitted by Bill Yox on 9/29/04 at 12:19 AM. ( ) 67.138.8.137

"Ive done it millions of times, and never lost one!" Yes, but its the one that doesnt work, thats going to prove our point. I run across the road everyday too, but Ill only regret it the one time I get run over...


your just getting silly

This response submitted by wilson on 9/29/04 at 10:13 AM. ( ) 152.163.100.134

We have all, simmered our heads for years, yes some ways are [a little] better then others. If you leave the skull in the bugs to long; the bugs will eat the bone or in the water too long it will evaporate and stain it beyond repair.
I'm not very PC, or an ass kisser soooooooo if someone wants a perfect deer head I'll send it to Bill or a museum skull, I'll send it to the pig, all others I'll do as I fell fit, boil, bug or soak.
Writ now I have a skull in the bugs, one in a bucket of water and the next one will go in a pot of hot water.
I'm not so sur, Bill, George or myself could tell the difference in a good job done with all 3 methods,


List of reasons

This response submitted by Raven on 9/30/04 at 9:07 PM. ( ) 24.150.166.254

The simmering alone can cause problems. The heat can loosen sutures, remove collagen and set grease and oil into the bone where it will leach out years later. I've had to clean up bones that have bled out grease nearly 100 years after being prepped... When people say "I've had it sitting there for 5 years and it's fine" it just makes me laugh. Also that set in grease can go rancid.. and once it does - it turns acidic. Acid destroys bone from within and years later your bone can just compeltely fall apart without any trauma. Look at the post about a whale vertebra in the molding archives last month....

As for the sal soda part? You have to understand chemistry. Calcium is the lowest of the low in terms of reactivcity. We all know (or should know) that bones need calcium for strength. Well calcium is the easiest mineral to replace. The sodium in sal soda will do just that - it dispalces the calcium in the bone thus weakening it. Unless you want to put out a half arsed piece of work - you need to strengthen the bone with an artifical medium. Lots of people use white glue and water 50/50. I use museum type materials like PVA B15 and B72 (since I do work for museums I know how to use this stuff and where to obtain it).

Maceration on larger skulls and which are not young juveniles (loose sutures) are best prepped with maceration. Bill was right about using it over simmering. It takes a little longer than beetles and is smellier - but the result is a far cleaner level. Bacteria are smaller than even the tiniest of instars of dermestid larvae. Dermeste larvae will NOT go into every little nook n cranny of bone marrow inside a bone. Bacteria from maceration will - period. You must ALWAYS degrease a bone - even if you don't notice a single trace of oil anywhere - still degrease it. Maceration makes this job easier and cleaner as the bacteria will eat blood and grease as well.

The time to really utilize bugs above all else is when you are doing fine bones like small mammals or bird feet, small skulls, or weakly joined skulls that come from young animals whose components have yet to fuse together. Highly kinetic skulls like snakes etc are also best served via beetles. The reason for all this is that bacteria will eat cartilage as readily as flesh. Dermestids will only eat cartilage after all flesh is gone.. it's not their optimal food source - so you can remove the osteological materials before they eat it up and scatter the bones. You really have to know yer bones and articulation to use maceration on small or weak components.

The ONLY benefit to simmering with sal soda is speed - you can do a skull in an afternoon. These will also be the skulls that are most likely to fall apart, be weak and brittle, be rubbery, go chalky, crack, bleed oils etc etc etc.... Under no cirumstances with the possible exception of prepping a skull for mold making then tossing the real skull.... can I justify using simmering as a method of bone prep. If you plan to keep the real bone for any reason - it is my strong belief that simmering should not be used in any fashion - period. I suppose one more excetion to this *could* be in prepping skull plates for mounts. Since you bondo it in place it doesn't have to be strong.. and once you put hide paste and hide on it - you won't notice any bleed out of oils.. but again - this is for skull caps... NOT skulls.

Sorry I missed this until now... the title of your post wasn't very specific... with all the political stuff etc. on this site I skim over a lot of what does not appear to be taxidermy related.


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