OK DP folks

Submitted by Dave Toms on 1/1/01. ( )

Do you have any high end clients (not talking about the bargin shoppers) that insist on you using a dry preservative? Most of my upper end clients would demand their trophy be tanned and i know why.

Dave Toms

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This response submitted by me on 1/1/01. ( )

You must have a boring life. Why keep bringing up this topic? Use what you wish and don't worry yourself about what the other guy is doing. What the hell is a high end client? My customers or clients or what ever you choose to call them, are all treated the same. I value each and every one of them and treat each equally. I don't know why your "upper end clients" demand tanning, and frankly I don't give a damn.

Maytag Washing Machines

This response submitted by George on 1/1/01. ( georoof@aol.com )

Do you know why Maytag became so famous in the washing machine idustry? They found a way to insure all the clothes were given the same access to being cleaned. They invented a device to continually stir the clothes and take that labor away from the house wife. They called it an agitator. Are you trying to invent another Maytag? Otherwise, I don't see the purpose of your stirring up stuff all the time.

You need to talk to Mr. Sam Touchstone. He must be in his 90's about now, but he has some very stong opinions about tanning. You can read some of them if you order his catalog, but I seriously doubt you'd want to go toe to toe with the arguments he could present to you from his long history in taxidermy.

And all my "high end" customers get DP on their mounts. They are ducks, birds, and small game mounts, but DP mounts never the less.

You're right

This response submitted by Dave Toms on 1/1/01. ( )

I should have stuck to religious topics :-)

Me ... there is a difference between bargain hunters and what I refer to as High End clients. The difference being is that one will call everyone in town till they find the right price, the other will check out everyone till they get the right product. The bargain hunter will seldom have loyality except for the price... the other, once thay find their guy/gal, will seldom switch hit and will pay well for what they want but they also tend to be more demanding on what products methods they want used.

You know my dads old John Deer tractor is held together with bailing wire and duck tape and it is way older then 28 years.... but that don't mean I want my truck fixed that way when I take it to the shop! Just because something will sometimes do the job does not mean it is the best way.
George you made an excellent observations as yes DP is used in most bird and fish mounts, I should have been more specific, I was refering to mammal hides. I respect Mr. Touchstone and do not wish to go toe-to-toe with anyone, but that still doesn't mean their/his view is right. I bet he doesn't use epoxy based adhesives either but we both know they are superior as ADHESIVES for earliners :-) (Just ordered some more fast set epo grip). Me a Maytag, an agitator.... Now come on George.... Hey did you Know that Christ once............ ops :-)

I simply stated an opinion and asked a question, about taxidermy. I will continue to make my clinets aware of the plus factor of tanned capes over DP capes. Hey I had an Idea maybe someone should start a commercial DP "tannery" think about the turn around time and all the work they could get. (Just a joke guys I am having fun, hope that is OK still?)

Wishing everyone a great and prosperous New Year

Dave Toms

Dave Says

This response submitted by Dave Taylor on 1/2/01. ( mastertaxidermist@jam.rr.com )

"Simply stated an opinion and asked a question"?
Nah, I think "agitator" is a much better description.

We all have our views, its just that some of us are more open-minded and willing to learn than others.

You should not call a method flawed simply because your lack of skill prevents you from using it properly.
You should not hurl thinly veiled insults at other taxidermists because they use different methods.
you should not insult our customers by placing them in your own narrow-minded categories.

Every one of my customers is a "high end" customer. that holds true for most taxidermists. they all pay the same rate, they all get the same high quality, they all get the same personal service, and eventually, most will be back. Most will tell their friends, most will refer others to me.
They do this because they can see the care and quality that their trophies receive. they are not stupid, they are not fools, and I didn't have to feed any of them a line of completely foolish crap about methods. I didn't have to build myself up by putting the competition down.
You have made it obvious that your customers don't get the same treatment. What's bad about that is you are feeding them lies!

It is a FACT that a top quality mount can be produced by either tanning OR Dry preserve.
It is a FACT that the Skill of the taxidermist is more important than
the methods used.
It is a FACT that tanning cannot make up for a lack of skill, and therefore, cannot by itself ensure a good mount.

Tanning and Dry preservative are simply two preserving methods that the skilled taxidermist can use.(there are others, also)

I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you, at some time in the past, tried to use DP.(otherwise, you are certainly a fool to criticize something that you have no knowledge of)

I will also assume that DP didn't work properly for you, and you found tanning to be a much better alternative in your business.

I ask you to consider that perhaps the problems you experienced weren't with the DP itself, but with the methods you used when you tried it.

Why must you continually launch such harsh attacks at that method?
The first time you fall off a bike, do you condemn and ridicule the bicycle?(at least most of us wouldn't)or do you try again until you learn how to ride?

I'm not asking you to start over and try DP again, because I personally don't care what you use.I am asking you to lay off the
DP attacks. they are unfair to your competition and fellow taxidermists, and not fair to your customers. If you truly have talent, it will show in your work. if you want to use tanning as
a sales point, then that's fine too. just do it positively. It isn't necessary to insult others or their methods.

Since I'm sure you'll be praying for me later, I have my own prayer for you---I pray that you'll someday realize that opinionated ignorance is NOT a virtue, and certainly not something you should show us each time you make a post.
Lets see if it helps.


Yea Right Master Taxidermist

This response submitted by Dave Toms on 1/2/01. ( )

Dave Taylor, I stated my opinion and I stand by it. Yes I tried the DP and I wouldn't mount anyones trophy deer with it, period. You don't know me so I sure don't see how you come up with how I treat my customers and what I should or should not be telling them. If I think tanning is far superior to DP then I will tell them that, and I most certainly do. If that hurts the guy down the street using DP, then that is up to him to prove otherwise and to let his work "shine". I treat every one of my paying customers the same but I do target my advertising efforts (that's called business). I guess you are telling me that there is no such thing as a highend client? One who spend thousands of dollars every year to hunt and is in the higher income bracket? One who insists on quality rather then price? You know the one who comes in and insists on Tohickon eyes, tanned hides, custom poses, pedestals, etc.............. price is only negotiated later and is secondary.

You call me opinionated... and I am, never tried to side step that. Doesn't your handle read Mastertaxidermist? Sounds pretty opinionated to me? As for the quality of my work... I'll let it speak for itself. I will tell you this in over 20+ years in and out of this business, I have never had one single customer walk in and demand DP on their mounts. I can not even count how many folks have insisted on a tanned hide. That my friend is a FACT. What do you get when you soak up a tanned hide... wet leather. What do you get when you soak up a DP hide... a raw hide.

As for my praying for you... what is up with that?

Dave Toms

So Much for being Nice

This response submitted by George on 1/2/01. ( )

How is it that you seem to bring out the best in folks. You are correct, we don't know you from diddly, but we CAN form an opinion and most of us have. You insult anyone who doesn't agree with your remarks. I do know a little about your history, and I'd be amazed if you take those attitudes we see here into your "regular job". You wouldn't have lasted long in any outfit I ever ran, I know that. Your posting was inciting and unsolicited and obviously just put there to start something. I don't know about all that Love and Peace you were chirping a few months back, but I do know you've already managed to burn some very heavy bridges in this industry. You can say what you want, but most people have good memories. You may and probably will need something from them one day, and it might be a lttle tough for you.

By the way, I'd never use DP on a fish and the best deer eyes don't always come from Tohickon. But then again, that's my unsolicited opinion and I'm sure Tohickon won't stop making eyes and Van Dykes won't stop making DP because of your comments.

Who did what?

This response submitted by Dave on 1/3/01. ( )

I insulted who? I searched the archives and I see that this topic has been well debated. I did not insult anyone just a method. Once again, you can go back and reread this post and it is obvious who starts insulting.


It hasn't Helped yet, but I'll keep Trying

This response submitted by Dave Taylor on 1/3/01. ( mastertaxidermist@jam.rr.com )

Oh Please!
Stop trying to play "victim", it just doesn't suit your charming personality.
Those of us who follow this forum are familiar with your postings.
Nobody has to rely on this one thread to gauge you or your attitudes.

This isn't a debate, this is you trying to build yourself up, by running others down. You can't "insult" a method without insulting
those who rely on it.
We are artists and craftsmen.---how bout you do this?---go to an arts and crafts show. go to each booth and tell the people that their stuff it crap because they didn't pay enough for their paints, or wood, or whatever. tell them that their works of art suck.
Then, as they are kicking your ass to the curb, explain to them that you "didn't insult anyone, just their methods." LOL

You, in your arrogance, don't seem to realize that "insult" and "debate" are not interchangeable.

So you garble out a bunch of sentences about customers and tanning.
How are they relevant?

Do you REALLY have customers walk in off the street and ask for "tohickon" eyes? LOL
I don't know where you live,(must be "taxidermyland")but I can assure you that in most of this world, people wouldn't have a clue what "tohickon" even means!
Gosh! there must be some hot-aired windbag in your community thats been "coaching" the customers.I wonder who that must be? LOL
(that probably explains the tanning situation too)
Which brings us back to another good point--it is simply YOUR opinion that you are pushing. it doesn't validate it simply because a customer repeats your crap back to you.(they don't know any better)

I like this quote--"What do you get when you soak up a tanned hide... wet leather. What do you get when you soak up a DP hide... a raw hide."

LOL--first, your very statement can be debated--because a DP hide soaked up does not necessarily revert to a raw hide.But most importantly, unless you are using your mounts as "tub toys", what does is matter? Do your customers want wet leather on the wall? I really just don't understand your argument.

I always try to help people on this forum.
Since I use BOTH methods in my business, I'll give your some valid arguments against DP.Then next time you make a post about it, you can
reply with some things relevant to the issue.

**you can experience more shrinkage with DP'd skins.
**dextrine based pastes don't work well with DP and foam.
**a raw skin is harder to shave than a pickled one(this is
indirect, since you could use DP after a pickle and eliminate
this problem)
**Some people don't like working with a "raw" skin, and prefer the
feel of a tanned skin instead.
**If you tan commercially, you get to spend less time fleshing and
shaving, because the tannery will do most of that for you.
** if you have sensitive skin, DP could cause cracking and discomfort
if you don't wear gloves or use lotion.

I really can't think of any other reasons, and most of the above can be eliminated if you know the proper steps to take.

I could give a dozen reasons why DP is better than tanning, but I've done that before.
It really is just a matter of preference--like Mcdonalds/Burger king, Coke/Pepsi, Ford/Chevy, or lifestyles/trojan. --you just have to go with whatever fits you best.
Just realize that not everyone will agree with you, and insulting them will not change that.


And on and on and on

This response submitted by Dave Toms on 1/3/01. ( )

George and Dave Taylor:

Go back and reread everything written here. I never said DP could not be used to do a mount, nor did I say it can not be used to preserve a mount, nor did I say those who use it are bad, nor did I say that they are poor craftsmen/women, nor did I say that tanning will replace poor craftsmanship, nor did I say anything else that you two seem to want to imply. It was you two who implied these things and made all those negative comments. I started out by asking if folks have client come in and specifically ask for DP on their mounts. Then I stated that my clients are just the opposite, they usually demand tanned hides. This isn't even my opinion here this is a FACT! I have an opinion on DP and I have every right to it just as George has to his Epoxies and Dave you have for your bondo.

As to judging me from all my previous posts? I have only started two debated posts in over a year (I have exercised my right to voice my opinion on topics such as joing pro hunting groups,NTA & state Taxidermy associations, voting etc.. on post starting by others) This one and the one asking why folks feel the need to read and slam Christian posts. Both were my opinions and I still hold fast to them today so yes Dave you still are not getting through to me (if that means that I have to change my opinions) and quite frankly you never will so you might as well quit trying. As for burning bridges George, talk about throwing rocks in a glass house.

While I would love to take credit for coming up with the "high end" client thing the fact is that I did not. I consider Mr. Boyce from Animal Artistry to operate one of the most successful shops. He is also a dynamic speaker and a "heck of a businessman". Take a look at some of his seminars or read his columns. He obviously believes in a highend client... but maybe that is why he is getting 750.00 for his deer shoulder mounts (if his price hasn't gone up). Any business class will teach you that you target specific audiences for specific results/needs. I said that I have "high-end" clients and I do. Do I want more of them.. heck yea. I love it when someone comes in and wants an artisitic piece rather then the status quo shoulder mount. You know the full habitat scene, custom woodwork, altered pose or something special and money is not a factor. I never said or implied that I treat them any better. All my mounts come out of my shop with the same attention to detail and quality.

And yes Dave I do have customers that know the difference between a Tohickon eye and a cheaper one. I even have folks who want specific forms. Did I "educate" them? Maybe, maybe not but I know this if the quality was not in those products I could not "pull one over on them". When you hold up a tohickon eye with one of those cheaper imitations you can see a big difference.

Dave Toms

my opinion

This response submitted by Becky on 1/3/01. ( Keytaxidermy )

I have been in this business 18 years. I have tried both ways. In the beginning I used DP on small mammals and would panic everytime the mount would shed hair but quickly learned once dry it would last and last. I stopped using it after a few years when I learned about tanning through R. Martins articles in Taxidermy Today. I like the results better and because I didn't like breathing the dust and the moisture (I didn't salt first). HOWEVER, My mounts from back then still look ok. As far as saying it is raw? well, I read that too but doesn't it have alum in it? and isn't that what is in a tan like Lutan F? I still like tanning better and don't DP anything but hey! If if works well for some that is what it is all about!
I use hide paste for ears (buckeye) and never have them drum. The expoxies are way too messy for me. Eyes, yes John Crossley is like no other there BUT I do like these new Tru fit eyes too.
As far as Customers go.. no one demands anything from me or they would soon be out my door! In 18 years I have never had anyone ask what method I use, how would they even know? (well maybe once from the kid who was going to taxidermy school) that would be like me asking my dentist what brand of filling I am getting. What the heck would I know or care as long as his work is good?
Why would another Taxidermist care what the other guy uses? It reminds me of my horses trying be head of the picking order...guys..what egos they have!

You live in your own little world

This response submitted by Dave Taylor on 1/3/01. ( mastertaxidermist@jam.rr.com )

Yes, there are always people who want to spend more than others. We all love those "high end" customers. It's just the way we define them that is different.

you are not "right" simply because you voice an opinion,your posts prove that fact, if nothing else. you can voice your same opinion
a thousand times and it'll be just as wrong as the first time.

I do like tohickon eyes, but your shallowness and lack of foresight is well represented by your views on their product.
I doubt ANY of your customers could distinguish a tohickon IQ from a tohickon optech or forward look ,(which do you consider the best?) regardless of which tohickon you choose, is it really that superior to an Eppley Trueye, Rinehart Competition eye,Van Dyke Natural eye,Van Dykes bio-optix,or vandykes premium big game eye? How about others, like AGT, Smith or West Coast(if they are still around).
could YOU even tell those eyes apart?

Even more ironic---which "cheap imitation eye" are you holding that one up to?(so you can compare the quality)LOL
the "cheapest" eye on the market is made by who? hmmm, how about Tohickon! LOL (#205 production eye)

until you can come up with some better, more educated "opinions", I'm not gonna play with you any more. I'm looking for a more intelligent game.



This response submitted by George on 1/3/01. ( georoof@aol.com )

This will be my very LAST response to you, so you take your best shot. Whatever bridges you think I may have burned, they don't bother me, but you sir, are a boor. You post, imply, lie, and then when things get sufficiently started, you whine and ridicule others. You are a person of so little self assuredness that you need to insult others to feel worthy. You've been to too many military classes and believed too much to make it in the real world. I've seen thousands of your types who are malcontents and misfits, and talk only to hear their brains rattle. It is impossible to carry on an intelligent conversation with someone who knows and has the ONLY answers. So have a ball from now on, but as far as I'm concerned, you'll be talking to yourself. And I'm sure there are others that will join me and feel the same as I do about your attitudes.

Look in the mirror George, Dave

This response submitted by Dave Toms on 1/4/01. ( )

George, I will not allow myself to sink to the level you obviously want me to go to, I did that once on another post but was man enough to apologize to you. I have done no evil here. You keep saying that I am insulting folks and I am doing this and that when in fact the written record above will show who resorts to name calling and insulting an individual. Look at your first post... you went off on a washing machine.. and yet you and Dave accuse me of not being able to hold an intelligent conversation? You have now denounced my military service, my religious beliefs, my education... Truth is you don't know anything about me.... As to my "self-assuredness" I have posted my name freely for all to see and have stuck to my opinions. I could have hid behind a fake name or no name at all. I guess in your eyes only a person who changes their opinion to match yours is self-assured?

And no I do not think that you are the final authority on taxidermy. I can search the archives too and it is full of your denouncing bondo, dextrine etc.... and a whole bunch more of your personal attacks on individuals. I admit that I do have strong beliefs and opinions, but I usually stop short of always trying to turn a post into a personal bashing because I do not like their opinion. I guess that is what sets us apart?

Dave Taylor, I will say this, despite some of your belittling comments, you did make some constructive comments and did state some facts from your viewpoint. It would have been nice if this whole post could have stuck to the pros and cons of DP rather then trying to find fault in the person who states an opinion. You are absolutely right, no matter how many times I restate my opinion that does not make it right. On the other hand, no matter how many times you say I am wrong that does not make you right either. I don't know about the 205 production eye as I would never use it in a mount that came out of my shop. I use the IQ series except for WT deer as I switched to the new Tohickon Meder style after seeing the proto type and comparing it to live deer at Mr. Meder's deer pen last April. I like the Eppley eye as far as shape and color but I do not like the fact that they are plastic. And yes I do feel like these 3 are the best eyes out there but I am sure someone is going to tell me how wrong I am about that and that I shouldn't be insulting folks who don't use them?

Dave Toms

Upper end clients?

This response submitted by Leanna on 1/4/01. ( scardeer@cornernet.com )

What, they have big asses? Probably because their heads are up them. As I see it, you asked a DP question merely to agitat the DP users? Because you never did tell us if a customer actually comes to your shop and demands you use DP on thier mounts. Just curious. And more so, would that make them the "lower end" clients? Thats abrasive. YOU DO get "things" started, then whine your way thru them, because your opinion was not met. I think it's the way of your quest, or maybe its just...you.

I must add, the Maytag reference also held the meaning of a "way to treat all clothes the same" meaning with customers, and the tanning methods. You pulled the only negative meaning out of it when you labled yourself "the agitator". MY opinion.

Dave Taylor, "masterfully" handled I must say!

Your right where you belong Leanna

This response submitted by Dave Toms on 1/4/01. ( )

So you are saying these folks have "big *****" because they have their heads up their butts? I never said someone who asks for DP on their deer mounts (If there is such a person) is a low end client.. that was your words. No I have never, ever had a client walk in and ask for DP on a deer mount or any other mount. I have had nemerous folks, both on the phone during initial contact, or in my shop ask to make sure I tan or have someone tan the hides. Despite what the 3 of you think there are some "educated" clients out there and they are getting more knowledgeable everyday. Perhaps it is you who is abrasive and niave when you think every person who walks in your shop is totally "uneducated" and ignorant to taxidermy. Last, just because you think someone whose main concern is not how much a mount cost but the quality in it and is willing to spend cash and has the cash and is little demanding in their expectations (which is what I have implied that a highend client is from the beginning) is full of themself, well you keep telling them that and send them my way.

Dave Toms

Never said that

This response submitted by Leanna on 1/4/01. ( )

And then, just wondering why did you ask what you asked in the first post? What were you looking for?

By the way

This response submitted by Dave Toms on 1/4/01. ( )

As you pointed out Leanna, none of you ever answered the original question either.

Dave Toms


This response submitted by Bill Yox on 1/4/01. ( )

DaveT, give up already! You DO have a way of wording things as to start a debate that goes nowhere, and does nobody any good. You went out to Meder's, so why would you POSSIBLY be interested in why someones high end clients would ask for DP, "and they demand thier trophy be tanned and I know why"? You KNOW what you are going to get, making a statement like that. Hell, a guy cant even make a legit statement about DP here without every powder jockey feeling as though you just slapped thier mother (read with humor, boys). Dave, I dont know you well but Id cut my losses here, before you lose all credibility...Leanna, upper end clients DONT have big asses. It means thier ass is higher up, thats all...


This response submitted by Leanna on 1/5/01. ( )

Okay. No Dave none of my upper end, lower end, or sideways customers has ever asked me to please use dry preserve. There. Whew! Sweat and wipe brow.

Yox, you KNOW I was being "assinine" when I said that! But dang, now I'm wondering, if peoples asses are higher up than some, that must give them longer legs, thus better runners. Do they then run FROM DP or towards it? Sorry...just being a nut.

Dave Toms...you were looking for WHAT?!


This response submitted by Bill Yox on 1/5/01. ( )

Lea, you is one ca-wazy cat!

Bill Yox

This response submitted by Dave Toms on 1/5/01. ( )

Leanna, I was looking for Bill Yox! He finally showed up and put me back on track.

Bill, I should have took your advice 4 posts ago, Litlle late but THANKS :-)

I'm outta here

I still think DP is best used to clean up spills

Dave Toms


This response submitted by Bill Yox on 1/6/01. ( )

You are probably right, you just have to watch how you say it!

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