For you guys like George or bill or bruce or glen conley that know or at least act like they know what they are doing, if i didn't know better i would say the pickle is way more important than the tanning. What would happen if you saftee pickled it and then mounted it right away. I would guess it would be just fine for a real long time if it dries down fairly quickly. The thing that got me wondering was the person that asked about McKenzie tan slipping. The tan really wouldn't have anything to do with slipping anyways would it? It seems just from my inexperienced observation that the pickle would get it to the hide and get it dried down and once you are dry you would be fine---like dry preservative. So i hope i didn't appear as ignorant as i actually am but how far off am i on my interesting theory here? :)
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I meant to say the pickle would get it on the form not 'hide'. if that confused y'all.
Can't we just make gold from sea water instead? Diamonds from coal? Tree leaves into green backs?
I knew, sooner or later, some of you boys were going to get old enough to start asking questions. Looks like the day has came.
This would be just a whole lot easier if Ken would just give me a pencil. Someone probably told him not to give me anything with a point on it. You'll have to color some of this with imagination, Ken won't give me any crayons either. Someone probably told him about me leaving my first box of crayons on the sun deck of my Old Man's first new car,....... in the summer. I've probably unwittingly created some kind of HTML code that is going to crash the Forums, and taxidermy.com, so, next thing will probably be.....don't give him a computer.
If this works.....finish coloring the "illustrations" with imagination.
First, pretend this is the triple helix structure of collagen, made up of the proteins glycine, proline, and hydroxyproline.
oo oo oo
o o o o o
o o o o o
oo oo o
Pretend these are the proteins in a dissassociated state.
o o o o o o o o
o o o o o o o o o o o
o o o o o o o o o o o o
o o o o o o o o o o o o o
o o o o o o o o o o o o
o o o o o o o o o
Pretend these are the same proteins rebonded with "something".
o-o-o-o-o-o-o
\/ \/ \/ \
o---o---o---o
\ / \ / \ /
o o o
I'm going to post this, and see if it worked, if it didn't work, pretend it did.
Blasted program dissassociated a perfectly good collagen helix. Didn't give it a chance. Must be from the acid in the program.
Looks like I'm going to have to do this the old fashioned way. Set up a webpage with some microphotographs.
Griz, give me a number of hours to get this at least in part together. We'll keep the thread open.
In the meantime, do a refresher course.
Salting and its effect on cellular material http://www.taxidermy.net/forums/IndustryArticles/03/e/03CECE023A.html
Read the pages that are linked from this article on hidetanning.net to the Protein Data Bank. Two articles. Covers a lot of territory.
http://www.hidetanning.net/CapeTanning.html
For years, many taxidermist only pickled. It was actually called "pickle tanning". HOWEVER, not everyone subscribed to that method for taxidermy, and as you can see, some never subscribe to any of it and used DP instead. If you're looking for the chemistry and microbiology of the technique, Glen's the guy. He might even tell you that there's still reason to believe that a product like "Stop Rot" might be capable of preserving a skin better and longer than tanning, but that's a whole 'nuther story. As for me, I'm too old and hardheaded. I still don't believe in pickling unless I have a very questionable hide to deal with. (BUT, I expect my tannery to pickle the hide when I send it to THEM. LOL)
It would be interesting to see some microphotographs if us hillbillies could decipher them, but i know it has to be alot of work, and you shouldn't go to the trouble for me. I know your time is valuable. I kinda reread yoshan's post and stuff, and reminded me that salting is really the only thing taxidermists agree on. It is like dping or pickling and tanning is just the insurance. I kinda suspected pickling was all that is really necessary. But of course tanning is a cheap insurance. It probaly won't hurt not to replace the broken down protein but as cheap and easy as the tannng oils are i guess it would be stupid not to. But like my original point was, when hair slips it definitely can't be associated with the oil that was rubbed into it to 'tan' it. I wonder how those "pickle tanned" skins look today? Well anyways, i don't know all the scientific data about it and probaly never will, but i sure am glad somebody knows all about it. Keep up the good work glen! I don't know how you do it!
I was born in a two room shack back up a holler on Briery Creek in Pulaski County, Kentucky. Can't get much more hillbilly than that.
First off, taxidermists DO NOT agree on salting! I DO NOT dry salt, and I don't think George does either, unless of course, he's going to send them out to a tannery for them to pickle.
One of the things I was wanting you to pick up on in Yoshan's post was that much of the cellular material was RETAINED with dry salting.
Any hillbilly knows how to get the cells to "dump" their contents!
Did you read the two articles linked to Protein Data Bank?
I still have a few more photos to locate. I'll get you edumacated yet. Some of this is stuff I was going to do anyways. I have to go now. Like I said, we'll keep this thread alive.
Pickling is a "temporary" preservative that allows the Tanner to keep the cape safely and prepare it (like shaving, degreasing and/or washing) until its ready to be tanned! It isnt a tan. Once you neutralize it - its preservative (acid) qualities are gone!
The problem with your theory is that if you pickle it and mount it - it contains both a lot of the pickling acid and a lot of the salt used! Both can cause you future problems. Unless neutralized - the acid will slowly break down the fiber structure of the cape and the excess salt will break out like "pimples" of salt crystalization on the surface of the cape's flesh side. These "pimples" will weaken the skin structure.
But - inspite of what I've said - pickling can be important in "conditioning" the cape prior to tanning. Some tans - like our EZ-100 prefer a cape that's been pickled and then neutralized for 20-30 minutes, rinsed, and then tanned. Obviously you wil not fully neutralize the cape. The inside fibers will be more acidic then the outside. This is good - because the EZ-100 prefers a more acidic cape to tan first. So - the cape tans from the inside and then outwards.
Thats why pickling (fully - like 3-4 days) can be important!
Griz, this is actually old news.......in some circles.
http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/nov98/tan1198.htm
I think you will find the entire article of interest, but I would like for you to remember the link that I put in to the article titled something to the effect of Collagen on the Grocery Store Shelf.
Correlate that with the article at the end of the above page address titled:
Turning Waste Into High-Value Products
I'm going to keep plugging away at the articles I told you I would put up as web material, I've had a lot of them back burnered for quite some time. The more I can get up on the web at once, the easier it will be to follow and understand. In the meantime, this bread crumb trail of edumacashunal stuff will help to keep you out of trouble.
your hillbilly buddy
oo......oo......oo......oo
..o....o..o....o..o....o
...o..o....o..o....o..o
....oo......oo......oo
If this worked, take your pencil eraser and erase all those little ..s from between the oos when it comes up on your monitor.
A new medium with which to unleash the pent up artist within! 'Sides that, now I can TALK. I've been told all my life if my hands were tied, or my pencil were taken away, I wouldn't be able to talk.
I'm still putting together web material, and it is going to take me some time yet. I will be back with some fresh cans of spray paint and explanations as soon as possible. Today is more than full, and tomorrow I'm huntin', and maybe the day after that, and maybe ad infinium for the balance of the season.