Glen Conley, I have a question or two...

Submitted by jrosbor on 5/23/05 at 7:42 PM. ( huntersdream3x@hotmail.com ) 64.73.36.192

This is going to be a long and complicated one,
Will STOP-ROT prevent ammonium chloride from melting the hair follicle from the flesh side of the skin? Meaning, If STOP-ROT is applied to the flesh side before freezing, salting or pickling. Will this somehow penetrate through the hide and stop the caustic reaction on the hair (epidermis) side? Also will STOP-ROT "work) in a low ph environment or in the presence of ions or minerals (salt)? The reason I ask these questions is because in one of your articles on STOP-ROT you had mentioned, "STOP-ROT can be diluted with distilled water for freezer burn) but made no mention of being diluted with tap water or having the freezer burned cape put right into a pickle treated with STOP-ROT. You also mentioned STOP-ROT "will stop the ammonium chloride reaction) but only mentioned using it on the hair side of the ears, eyes, and nose exc. If you could clear this up that would be great! Joseph R. Osborn (Hunter's Dream Taxidermy)

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YEPPERS! It's a long and complicated one!

This response submitted by Glen Conley on 5/24/05 at 2:00 AM. ( g.conley@verizon.net ) 70.106.134.240

Let me catch some sleep, and I'll get back with you.

In the meantime, you know the Orange Button Drill.
Hair Slippage Question for Glen Conley
http://www.taxidermy.net/forums/DeerTaxiArticles/02/l/029F66F890.html

Also, enter in WATER AIN'T WATER in quotation marks as a second search phrase.


O.K., Joe!

This response submitted by Glen Conley on 5/24/05 at 1:14 PM. ( g.conley@verizon.net ) 70.106.134.240

"This is going to be a long and complicated one,"

Sorry, Joe, but I'm going to have to give you the condensed version. When I type too much my typing finger gets worn down to a bloody stub, and then I start dripping blood all over the keys and I can't see what I'm writing.

1. Will STOP-ROT prevent ammonium chloride from melting the hair follicle from the flesh side of the skin?

It appears to be able to do that. Apply on the flesh side of a green cape, turn the hair side out, and lay it out flat on a table for about an hour. You should be seeing moisture when you move the cape.

Joe, here's some fun things to do at home with STOP-ROT! Actually you will see that it doesn't take a lab full of equipment to do a whole lot of testing. Your own senses, powers of observation, and common sense combined with a little book learnin' will take you pretty far. If you don't have the previous, it ain't going to make any difference as to how much equipment you have. I state with some frequency, if it doesn't work on a microscope slide, it sure as Hell ain't going to work in real life. Same thing applies to small test pieces. You can do that process of elimination thing in a hurry with a lot of small samples and a pack of Solo cups. Many times almost insignificant little details will point the direction for a feller to follow.

Take some of the household cleaner Fantastik and pour a little out into a Solo cup.

Take some household ammonia and pour a little out into a Solo cup.

Take some fresh dog pee and divide it out into two Solo cups.

Add STOP-ROT to each of the above until the odor is gone, with the exception of dog pee cup number two, and you set it off to the side as a control.

You will probably produce a gooey liquid that will remind you of the goo that forms when STOP-ROT is put on a fresh green cape.

Let these sit out exposed to the air until you have had a lot of evaporation take place, then come back and add water to each.
The Fantastik (ammonium chloride in commercial quantity) should be odorless. History.

You will probably once again get an ammonia odor from the ammonia cup. Darn, apparently kept it bonded.

Dog pee control. You'll probably gag when you smell it. You probably will not have to get too close.

Dog pee and STOP-ROT should smell like fresh, hot dog pee. In case you're starting to wonder about me.......think in terms of animal urine lure potential. I rehydrated the dog pee twice in a three week period, and still got the fresh dog pee smell at the end of the period. I used tap water for a water source (think of the same minerals being present in earth, but in greater abundance, and think in terms of rain water or melting snow being a water source for rehydration.).

Skunk musk. Odor neutralized. You can probably forget musks for lure making.

All the above have ammonium ions as common denominators, but the rest of the "variables" seem to effect the end results as to whether the compounds are kept in a state of preservation, or neutralized. This might also indicate stability, or lack of with different amines when exposed to STOP-ROT.

Having done all the above myself, and witnessed the results, has kept me from jumping to any pre-conceived conclussions when it comes to STOP-ROT end results. Frankly, some of my end results above were bass ackwards of what I was expecting.

2 Meaning, If STOP-ROT is applied to the flesh side before freezing, salting or pickling. Will this somehow penetrate through the hide and stop the caustic reaction on the hair (epidermis) side?

If you had cut a sample piece (postage stamp size from over the back area, with lots of hair) off of the above cape that you laid out flat on the table before you treated it with STOP-ROT and laid it to the side, then do the STOP-ROT treatment on the cape, then whack off another sample piece, preferably from right beside where your first sample was cut, and then put water in a couple of Solo cups, then put each of these into the water, you should be seeing a really obvious difference in the two.

The STOP-ROT treated piece should be obviously looking like each individual hair is now encapsulated with "something", which is causing a water repulsion. Positive results may be something as simple as a result of compounds shielding the hair from chemical reaction damage, OR the STOP-ROT has bonded first, preventing another chemical from taking the same previously open bonding site.

There no doubt is a myriad of factors involved. The STOP-ROT has combined with system fluids in passing through the skin, and either "preserving" or changing some of those. Osmotic pressures "might" be causing enough cellular rupture to drain the contents of cells that clinically died when blood circulation was cut off. That could add to the mix.

We also have fats and oils to contend with. At this time I have deer tallow that I rendered down soaking in STOP-ROT (would you believe in a Solo cup?). Now that's a pretty saturated fat, but THERE IS definitely something going on. But again, I'm not going to jump to any conclusions or speculations at this time. STOP-ROT and unsaturated fats and oils have already appeared to be a good possible combination, that's why I have gone to the saturated.

Back to oils. There is an oil gland at the base of each hair. It is really hard to get a cross section cut to expose an individual oil gland on an individual hair. Any time I have done it has had to be more luck than anything. I suspicion that the sum total wicking action provided by the hair is helping to draw out the oil from the gland.

Now, we have to add to that. There also appears to be an instant bonding of STOP-ROT to keratin structures. Think hair.

If I remember my time frame correctly, it was right at three years ago I used STOP-ROT on a year old skin wound that was heavily keratinized on a mare's leg. The original gash had been on the inside bend of the cannon and gaskin, one of the kind that will not hold a stitch or bandage.

George Roof has been one of my confidants over time, and I sent him the photo sequence of responses of the injury. The STOP-ROT "visually" had an effect on the keratinized skin not a whole lot unlike what you would see as a response on freezer burned dead skin. The injuries were actually a little more extensive than a superficial cut, and the mare had been lame for months. The mare was trail ridden that following summer.............and I still have one of the keratinized pieces I removed in a state of preservation in a zip-loc bag, that was never zipped.

STOP-ROT likes the freezer, but so does some other compounds.....
It should take about three days to get something close to a solid freeze if you put STOP-ROT in a freezer at below zero temperatures.
Put some of the acids you use in Solo cups and then into the freezer, be sure to use pure acids for this, a pickle solution doesn't count, salt screws with the quo. What happens?

If you were to take the fluid drainages from a fresh cape, and put them into one of those Solo cups, stick that into the freezer at below zero temperatures, and then check every few minutes, you should notice that there are separations taking place, and different areas are freezing faster than others. Once frozen solid, set the cup on the table and watch the contents thaw. You should see different areas thawing at different times.

2. Also will STOP-ROT "work) in a low ph environment or in the presence of ions or minerals (salt)?

You didn't define the term "work".

Yes, it will work, but it appears to have changed job descriptions.

For example, Anthony Eddy's crew and Mark Haineault were, as far as I know, the first to add a few ounces of STOP-ROT to their acid pickles in auto-tanners. They both claimed increased efficiency of pickling, and shaving. These capes would have also been treated with STOP-ROT prior to pickling. I have microphotography photos on hidetanning.net showing what takes place with the fluids in the skin at that stage.

Regardless, when an acid, as the kinds used in tanning procedures, and STOP-ROT come into contact, a reaction WILL take place, but just not something that is super extreme. As a result of this reaction, thousands upon thousands of little bitty micro gas bubbles will be formed. At times you can see this pretty easily with the naked eye as the solution may appear milky from the light reflecting off the bubbles.

Boyle's Law calls for compressed gases to heat, and expanding gases to cool.

It's no secret that mammal skin was designed to function at a ball park temperature of 100 degrees F.

It is also no secret that heat expands, and cold contracts.

It is also no secret that molecular activity speeds up with heat.

The proteins (amino acids) that make up collagen, proline, hydroxyproline, and glycine follow these laws of physics while they are their intact state as a skin structure. A green cape at 50 degrees will not have the stretch or relaxation of one that is at 100 degrees. An obvious here should be that ambient temperatures can have a profound effect on time frames and end results.

"My Auto-Tanner Theory" is that gases being produced (keep in mind that carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide are the commonly produced gases by acids working on skin) are also heating up the skin while under pressure, this would increase the porosity of the skin at least temporarily, allowing easier penetration of acids due to the relaxation. You can see about the same thing take place in a pickle bucket that has a temperature above 90 degrees F., and I'm sure many of the southern guys here get to see that pretty regularly.

What would also go along with that theory is that internal temperatures of the skin are possibly hitting temperatures above 140 degrees F.

At those temperatures the hydroxyl bond at hydroxyproline is probably the first to go, allowing the initial start of the unfurling of the helical collagen structure. When these structures start to unfurl is when you will start seeing the "white" look to the skin, as total light waves are reflected back to the eye. Seeing "white" doesn't especially mean that the collagen structure has gone through complete disassociation, it may only be the outermost "wraps" of the structure.

On a side note, hydroxyls are reported as freezing at 34 degrees F. That is a loaded statement. Think back to the skin fluid drainages and freezing/thawing.


3. The reason I ask these questions is because in one of your articles on STOP-ROT you had mentioned, "STOP-ROT can be diluted with distilled water for freezer burn) but made no mention of being diluted with tap water or having the freezer burned cape put right into a pickle treated with STOP-ROT.

Distilled water is about as close to being a constant as we are going to have the luxury of using. That's why I referenced you to WATER AIN'T WATER!.

If your water source works, go for it.

Many times you may not be able to get hard spots out of a freezer burned skin if it is not rehydrated before going into a pickle made with milder acids. No point in taking the chance.

4. You also mentioned STOP-ROT "will stop the ammonium chloride reaction) but only mentioned using it on the hair side of the ears, eyes, and nose exc. If you could clear this up that would be great! Joseph R. Osborn (Hunter's Dream Taxidermy)

See above.

Well, Joe, did that answer your questions? Joe?........Joe?.......................Joe?


Holy Crow!

This response submitted by jrosbor on 5/24/05 at 5:27 PM. ( huntersdream3x@hotmail.com ) 64.73.36.192

Wow!


OK This puppy is getting printed!

This response submitted by jrosbor on 5/24/05 at 6:00 PM. ( huntersdream3x@hotmail.com ) 64.73.36.192

Yes you have answered all of my questions and then some! However you have also created a few more questions. We will worry about thoes later. Thank you! Joe


Weird Water Cycle

This response submitted by Jackie on 6/4/05 at 1:31 AM. ( ) 165.21.83.246

Er...If only pure water evaporates, what happens to dog pee? They are definately not pure...If they just seep into the ground, and does not evaporate, then every time a dog drinks and pees, the earth is actually losing water? Or if only the pure water in dog pee evaporates, then the other chemicals remain there? then if it rains, pure water mixes with the left over chemicals, it becomes dog pee again? Pls explain.


Good Question Jackie!

This response submitted by jrosbor on 6/4/05 at 3:13 PM. ( huntersdream3x@hotmail.com ) 64.73.36.192

Actualy all kidneys work the same weather its from a dog, deer, or a person! Urine is made up of a watery solution of metabolic wastes (such as urea), dissolved salts and organic materials. Therefore all of the organic materials will eventuly decompose and the salts will remain salts, and when mixed with water will become somthing that is very much like urine. I should also make a verry important note here. You said "then if it rains" Well, rain water contains nitrogen (N), and one of the salts in urine is potassium nitrate (kno3) note k"n"o3 thats right now its time to get out your old high school science books and check out the "nitrogen cycle" (it involves a detailed description of how nitrogen and water are evaporated! Joseph R Osborn (Hunter's Dream Taxidermy)


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