Is it possible to out your green hide (after fleshing) into alum and your acid pickle and skip the salting part as alum does the same job as salt?
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Alum is an astringent with a low pH. Salt is a dehydration agent with neutral pH. Alum won't remove the moisture from the skin cel structures and without salt, won't penetrate into them. Alum traditionally is used as a "pickle" agent much the same as the Vlasic pickles you buy in the stores.
Greg use the orange button or call me at (705)476-0483 I've used this method for 33 years and I never loss a skin, maybe just maybe you should try it George.And questions call me and i will walk you through it. cut your labor in 1/2 and increase your proffit.
My opinion on alum is well documented. I also used DP for nearly 25 years and never had a problem with it either, but I changed my mind on the quality of the end item. If it works for you, that's great, but I'll always maintain that it's not the "best" product available for the job.
The reason I asked this question was that I heard of this been done before so I wanted to ask if anyone else tryed it. But I should clear one thing up for some people (George). I was meaning for this question to be answered by taxidermist who had tried this meathod and it either worked or didnt. If it worked for Laurier for 33 years thats all the answer I need. If George has never tried it and only goes by what he has read, then he should actually try it before he casts his opinion. All of us taxidermists depend on each other to find better ways to do stuff and we need to be prepared to share our experience not our opinions to help others out. Now Laurier, on the Rittels website he has many powders with alum in it, just wondering what the exact name of the alum I will need to buy. Thanks for the advice.
I've heard of guys "tanning" with turpentine and mounting snakes with anti-freeze or glycerine WITHOUT PROBLEMS. Don Stevens actually has a mount in his shop that has no preservative whatsoever on it and it's just as good as his tanned and dp mount done at the same time. Yet I don't have to have tried lighting a match near an oxygen bottle to know what happens eventually.
I give MY OPINIONS on issues that I've seen, heard AND experienced in 47 years of doing taxidermy. I've done the right things and still had it go wrong, but more often than not, it went right. I've done the wrong things and gotten away with it, but more often than not, it went bad. I've gotten away with stupid things for years before it came up to bite me eventually. So if Laurier got away with it for 33 years and that's all you needed to make a decision, there you have it. All I'm doing in this post is telling those beginners who HAVEN'T made a choice that the odds aren't on their side in this issue. If it WERE, there'd be more people already on here telling you what a great idea it is.
I find it sad that so many of you tout such experiments in foolishness as "pushing the envelope", or "finding a better way". Alum has been around since mankind discovered chemistry. Why would you think you can reinvent the wheel? Don't you even give credit to some of us who've lived the life for reaching these conclusions by other means than we've "heard" about them?
You cant win! Proper salting is the most important step in skin perservation. Why change something thats been tried and true for decades? To repeat what George just said, taking shortcuts will more than likely cost you in the end. Ive never pickled a skin without salt. Why, because I heard long ago, that it was not the correct way to pickle a skin!
Alright, you say that he has gotten away with it for 33 years, and that your only telling me the right way to do it. But what makes something a right or wrong way? Alot of times the right is the most used way or the first way that is used. Now if he has been getting away with it for 33 years and has not seen any difference in the quality, then it would make sence that he has come across a good idea or another way of doing the same job. George have you tried using the method before or are you going by peoples opinions? Lets get something clear George, you had better be open to new ideas before you say its not right, try it then offer your 2 cents. The hand operated bike pump has been around for a long long time and works well for pumping up a tire. If we say that since it is tried tested and true for decades, and that all the old times used it and its the best way, I guess we should never try an air compresser to pump up a tire. New ways of doing stuff keeps apearing all the time and Im sure a good reason people are not bragging about the alum treatment is because they kept going on advice from old timers who only told them what they do and how its the only way, and did not experiment. Unless you have tried it and found it not to work, then let us know.
Using DP (OR ALUM which is an integral part of Sam Touchstone's Bess Maid dry preservative that I used) for 25 years told me enough. Seeing alum tanned hides disintegrate within that same quarter century told me I didn't want alum tans either. I've been open to more "new ideas" than you could ever imagine. Calorex was from Northwest School of Taxidermy, the Fat-Vac, the Feather Duster, the magnetic tape strips to hold wings, Cape Tape, soaking hides in boiling water, tanning with shoe polish, using arsenic and Endolan-U, and a thousand other things that are gone and forgotten. Still, the basic vegetable tan and syntan's have lasted through all of them and the procedures have withstood hundreds of Laurier's and my lifetimes. Did you ever hear the statement, "Don't screw with Mother Nature". People still do and Nature always wins. In my first post, I gave you the chemistry of the two products and that should have been sufficient. I'm just concerned that a post like this will encourage some beginner to start using antifreeze to preserve his snake skins and straight alum to prep them. Obviously my advice doesn't suit you and that's fine by me, but you've used Bruce Rittel's name here also. Why don't you give Bruce a call and let all of us know what an industry icon has to say about your idea?
took george 25 years to believe in tanning - enuf said
O.S., to say that salt is the most important step in "skin preservation" is a serious flaw.
Look at the fur induustry. How many of those skins are sold salted on the world markets? Almost 35 million OR MORE skins per year x "decades" (150 years?) and about 500 of those per year are salted (almost all of which are black bears meant for taxidermy).
The rest are air dried. No salt.
These skins go in to garments, one garment of which in the high end (sable, chinchilla, lynx) would buy out the average taxidermy business.
Or look at the meat rabbit industry. Meat rabbit skins are not salted. They are sold frozen in bulk to dressers and processed immediately. It happens in China and France all the time. I don't have figures for # rabbits used per year but am pretty sure it's over 2 million, it could be much higher.
The answer is yes, you can tan a skin without salt. Brain-tanning is the most basic example and it's been around longer then George, heck it's been around longer then the automobile OR TV, maybe even longer then the wheel. Vegetable tanning "the old way" with pits & poop & ground leaves, is another. Krowtann is another example of no-salt "tanning". It's actually a taw, a pre-tan, not a full tan.
Alum tans are no good BUT for the rank and file beginner, better to tan then not to tan. Let them live and learn.
There is no "most important" step in proper skin preservation. They are all important. From harvest to final tumbling. Don't skip any.
George and old shaver salting is a VERY IMPORTANT STEP, BUT VERY TIME cONSUMING, The alum goes in the pickeling as per tanneries. This helps on the degreassing and cooks the fat on the skin so you can shave it off with a fleshing machine then by hand, I will remove most of the big fat and meat, and the alum does the rest. I do the same as the tanneries ,but I neutralize the skins,, You say that my way is no good, If D.P. was so dam good tanneries would use it and so would I
D.P. is right up their with freeze drying.
My number is (705)476-0483 if anyone has any questions. Look it makes no diference to me the way you want to work. But I prefer to put more profit in my pocket and less labor out. I DO NOT CUT CORNERS.
"The alum goes in the pickeling as per tanneries. This helps on the degreassing and cooks the fat on the skin so you can shave it off with a fleshing machine then by hand, I will remove most of the big fat and meat, and the alum does the rest."
If it took you 33 years to come to that conclusion, I'd hate to hear what the next 10 will do for you. Alum doesn't "cook" anything. It's an ASTRINGENT, man. Look the word up or look "alum" up. And sure there are tanneries that use alum, but I don't use THEM. Alum was used originally as a "pickle tan" which is just what you're talking about. The hide never really was tanned as the alum was all it got and the hide got PICKLED. Those mounts are now in landfills someplace. And it's the same reason DP hasn't replaced tanning. You're encouraging people to screw the pooch with this whole line and the more you say, the deeper the hole gets.
Dry preservative has been around a lot longer than you have and it certainly has its purposes. I'd bet you that my DP mounts look one helluva lot better than your alum mess when you want to compare 33 year old work to mine. I still use it for coyote sized animals and smaller. Birds are always DP'd in one way or another. And to equate that as a slam on freeze drying is just about as smart. Taxidermy has only been enhanced by freeze drying, not punished. I'd like to see one of your turkey heads compared to Calley Morris'.
Salting is "time consuming". So is living but I'd just as soon continue doing that as well. Everything is at a cost and nothing is for free.
Dash guy is right about the fur industry, but you should be very careful confusing the furriers with the taxidermy industry. Furs are paper thin to begin with and dry easily in the atmosphere. There is no depth of the skin to worry about leeching the water from. You might get away with air drying a bear hide, but try it with a bison, moose, or elk and you're just asking for trouble.
We are talking Taxidermy here. PRESERVING SKINS FOR TAXIDERMY PURPOSES, NOT FUR COATS. SALTING IS THE FIRST STEP IN PRESERVING A SKIN FOR A MOUNT. IT IS WHAT ALL PROFESSIONAL TAXIDERMISTS DO, AND WILL CONTINUE TO DO. ANY THING ELSE IS JACKLEG. It is also alot easier to salt a skin, than it is to air dry it! I have seen too many skins slip from improper salting, to not consider it the most important part. NO HAIR, NO MOUNT!
George and Oldshaver maybe you will listen this time!
I do not alum tan I use EZ-100 to tan I use alum in the pickel ONLY for shaving, You have never tried this method so unless you are willing to try something else go back to your cave. I do very very few turkeys and would only use artificial heads Frank Newmirs.
A deer head is a small mount in our shop. Nothing is air dried I pickel THEM neutralize,THen tan ,THEN oil , THEN finish.
OH yes and I will put and of my work up against your D.P. and see how long your skins hold up to humidity.Oh and one more thing ,a bear will slip easier then a moose, or a bison and I never have any slippage and I tan and mount one hell of a pile of bears.And see how many tanneries use alum in their pickeling, maybe you old dogs may be able to learn something new.e-mail me your phone numbers George and oldshaver. So we can discuss this further.
And you NEVER said it was only pickling you did with alum. I know it's a good pickle because it washes out so quickly. Nothing new there. But time is on my side with the salt and since I'm a few years ahead, you have yet to get to this point I suppose. NO WAY would I EVER go direct to a pickle. And as I asked, did you get Bruce Rittel's opinion? I've yet to see it here.
I have no problem with reading comprehension, except when reading some of your posts. My spelling is a little weak sometimes, but who cares. I stayed on subject, which was salting skins, or going straight to pickle with a raw skin. The last post I made was directed at another person posting under this topic. I called them mr.-, because they didnt leave a name, or handle. That is who mentioned the air drying etc. I have no problem with alum either. You should read everybodys opinion when they post on here, and maybe you wont get caught with your pants down again, and maybe you will know if someone is addressing you or not. By the way, my cave is over 2000 sqft, and I own two cars less than 2 years old. Working in the comercial tanning business for close to 20 years, full time, is what pays for them. I need no schooling, but, thanks just the same.
this all started with (Greg use the orange button )
all instuctions are their, George and oldshaver not trying to insalt you either but don't knock it until you try it. I will call Bruce some day soon and ask him his opinion.
However I do agree with you about the salt, my way is very easy but same as salting,if things are not done right it will be a problem.